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Thread: Chor Lau Heung vs Huang Yaoshi

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    Default Chor Lau Heung vs Huang Yaoshi

    I am wondering:

    How is CLH's finger snap vs HY's Divine Finger Flick?

    How is CLH's overall martial arts compared to HYS?

    What level might CLH be on WuxiaMaster's Ultimate Rankings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    I am wondering:

    How is CLH's finger snap vs HY's Divine Finger Flick?

    How is CLH's overall martial arts compared to HYS?

    What level might CLH be on WuxiaMaster's Ultimate Rankings?
    The Divine Finger Snap was East Heretic Wong Yerk See's creation, and was known as his ultimate martial art (from a wide array of martial arts he had personally invented). For Chor Lau Heung, the Divine Finger Snap was a skill that he learned, and it was one that he was known for, but it wasn't his go-to technique the same as it was for Wong Yerk See.

    For his entire adult life, Wong Yerk See was among the Top 6-10 martial artists in wulin, and often hovered within the Top 5. A few people managed to become slightly better than him during his lifetime, but nobody completely outclassed him. We never saw Wong Yerk See seriously wounded throughout his appearances in LOCH/ROCH (only a minor finger wound when West Poison Au Yeung Fung bit him at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament).

    Throughout the time of Chor Lau Heung's adventures, at least two martial artists were his superior: the Stone Guanyin and the Water Matriarch. Their skills outclassed his, and he was able to overcome these enemies only through his great cunning and a bit of good luck. If the TV adaptations can be believed, he did sustain a few serious injuries during his adventures.

    Based on this limited information, Wong Yerk See should be overall superior to Chor Lau Heung.

    HOWEVER, we followed Wong Yerk See's life/adventures mostly from the time when he was in his fifties to his nineties. He had, for the most part, arrived at his peak levels as a martial artist. Chor Lau Heung's adventures all take place before he is in his mid-thirties, so we do not know to what extent he might have improved later in his life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post

    For his entire adult life, Wong Yerk See was among the Top 6-10 martial artists in wulin, and often hovered within the Top 5.
    Who were the 4-5 that was above him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Who were the 4-5 that was above him?
    During LOCH, he was within the Top 5. Because there was no consensus # 1 during LOCH, it was best to treat him and his rivals as Top 5 martial artists (unranked). He never sat at the pinnacle alone at # 1, but after he turned thirty, he was never out of the Top 10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Divine Finger Snap was East Heretic Wong Yerk See's creation, and was known as his ultimate martial art (from a wide array of martial arts he had personally invented). For Chor Lau Heung, the Divine Finger Snap was a skill that he learned, and it was one that he was known for, but it wasn't his go-to technique the same as it was for Wong Yerk See.

    For his entire adult life, Wong Yerk See was among the Top 6-10 martial artists in wulin, and often hovered within the Top 5. A few people managed to become slightly better than him during his lifetime, but nobody completely outclassed him. We never saw Wong Yerk See seriously wounded throughout his appearances in LOCH/ROCH (only a minor finger wound when West Poison Au Yeung Fung bit him at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament).

    Throughout the time of Chor Lau Heung's adventures, at least two martial artists were his superior: the Stone Guanyin and the Water Matriarch. Their skills outclassed his, and he was able to overcome him only through his great cunning and a bit of good luck. If the TV adaptations can be believed, he did sustain a few serious injuries during his adventures.

    Based on this limited information, Wong Yerk See should be overall superior to Chor Lau Heung.

    HOWEVER, we followed Wong Yerk See's life/adventures mostly from the time when he was in his fifties to his nineties. He had, for the most part, arrived at his peak levels as a martial artist. Chor Lau Heung's adventures all take place before he is in his mid-thirties, so we do not know to what extent he might have improved later in his life.
    Wow!
    Thanks for the details Ken.
    I sure learned something new about CLH and HYS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Who were the 4-5 that was above him?
    To expand upon this, during Wong Yerk See's young adulthood, Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung and Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying were superior to him.

    During Wong Yerk See's prime age, Au Yeung Fung was *slightly* better than him during the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, but this was likely a very short-lived period.

    Near the end of ROCH, only Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were definitively better than Wong Yerk See, and I imagine (but cannot confirm) that both the Golden Wheel Monk and Chow Bak Tung would have been somewhat better too (but not by huge margins).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    To expand upon this, during Wong Yerk See's young adulthood, Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung and Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying were superior to him.

    During Wong Yerk See's prime age, Au Yeung Fung was *slightly* better than him during the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, but this was likely a very short-lived period.

    Near the end of ROCH, only Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were definitively better than Wong Yerk See, and I imagine (but cannot confirm) that both the Golden Wheel Monk and Chow Bak Tung would have been somewhat better too (but not by huge margins).
    Zhou Botong was better than him right out of the cave. Huang Yaoshi himself admitted so he's not the type to give out diplomatic praises. Also during the final Huashan meet, Jin Yong confirmed again that ZBT is a bit above all other current Greats and that includes GJ and YG who were also present.

    Ou Yangfeng beat him at the 2nd Huashan tournament but that was a freak incident like you said. OYF and HQG later dueled to a dead even result. OYF, HYS, HQG were all equal as intended by the author.

    Against other characters, it's inconclusive whether he's better or worse. He never fought GJ, YG, GWM etc. in any serious battles so we'll never find out. YG beat GWM but we all know about GWM's chokability so we can't use GWM as a reliable barometer.

    So going strictly by facts that happened in the novels and the author's own word, we can only know for sure that there's roughly 5 tiers and the difference between them is about 2-3 level points at best.

    Tier 1: ZBT
    Tier 2: HYS, OYF, HQG, GJ, YG
    Tier 3: YD
    Tier 4: QQR
    GWM should be tier 2 but he can choke his way to a defeat easily, especially when he's rattled by the surrounding environment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Zhou Botong was better than him right out of the cave. Huang Yaoshi himself admitted so he's not the type to give out diplomatic praises. Also during the final Huashan meet, Jin Yong confirmed again that ZBT is a bit above all other current Greats and that includes GJ and YG who were also present.

    Ou Yangfeng beat him at the 2nd Huashan tournament but that was a freak incident like you said. OYF and HQG later dueled to a dead even result. OYF, HYS, HQG were all equal as intended by the author.

    Against other characters, it's inconclusive whether he's better or worse. He never fought GJ, YG, GWM etc. in any serious battles so we'll never find out. YG beat GWM but we all know about GWM's chokability so we can't use GWM as a reliable barometer.

    So going strictly by facts that happened in the novels and the author's own word, we can only know for sure that there's roughly 5 tiers and the difference between them is about 2-3 level points at best.

    Tier 1: ZBT
    Tier 2: HYS, OYF, HQG, GJ, YG
    Tier 3: YD
    Tier 4: QQR
    GWM should be tier 2 but he can choke his way to a defeat easily, especially when he's rattled by the surrounding environment.
    If ZBT better than YG he would easily beat JLFW since YG even at his happy "mode" could beat JLFW in 200-300 moves..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    To expand upon this, during Wong Yerk See's young adulthood, Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung and Ancient Tomb Sect Founder Lam Chiu Ying were superior to him.

    During Wong Yerk See's prime age, Au Yeung Fung was *slightly* better than him during the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, but this was likely a very short-lived period.

    Near the end of ROCH, only Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were definitively better than Wong Yerk See, and I imagine (but cannot confirm) that both the Golden Wheel Monk and Chow Bak Tung would have been somewhat better too (but not by huge margins).
    TBH I never imagine JLFW could beat HYS yes he is better than YD but I doubt he could overcome HYS..

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Zhou Botong was better than him right out of the cave. Huang Yaoshi himself admitted so he's not the type to give out diplomatic praises. Also during the final Huashan meet, Jin Yong confirmed again that ZBT is a bit above all other current Greats and that includes GJ and YG who were also present.

    Ou Yangfeng beat him at the 2nd Huashan tournament but that was a freak incident like you said. OYF and HQG later dueled to a dead even result. OYF, HYS, HQG were all equal as intended by the author.

    Against other characters, it's inconclusive whether he's better or worse. He never fought GJ, YG, GWM etc. in any serious battles so we'll never find out. YG beat GWM but we all know about GWM's chokability so we can't use GWM as a reliable barometer.

    So going strictly by facts that happened in the novels and the author's own word, we can only know for sure that there's roughly 5 tiers and the difference between them is about 2-3 level points at best.

    Tier 1: ZBT
    Tier 2: HYS, OYF, HQG, GJ, YG
    Tier 3: YD
    Tier 4: QQR
    GWM should be tier 2 but he can choke his way to a defeat easily, especially when he's rattled by the surrounding environment.
    YG and GJ superiority over the ROCH Greats has been discussed for many years.
    It was also at a consensus with WuxiaMaster's Ultimate Rankings that YG and GJ would win against ZBT in a death battle because of age and stamina.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    YG and GJ superiority over the ROCH Greats has been discussed for many years.
    It was also at a consensus with WuxiaMaster's Ultimate Rankings that YG and GJ would win against ZBT in a death battle because of age and stamina.
    The younger generation always have advantage in "stamina" except Wuji though his stamina and endurance much greater than Z3F I doubt he could beat Z3F..

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Zhou Botong was better than him right out of the cave.
    My impression was that Chow Bak Tung was slightly behind the other Greats until he mastered the Left/Right Hand Technique and inadvertently began incorporating the 9 Yum Jen Ging into his native martial arts after teaching it Gwok Jing, which happened shortly after Chow's first appearance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    My impression was that Chow Bak Tung was slightly behind the other Greats until he mastered the Left/Right Hand Technique and inadvertently began incorporating the 9 Yum Jen Ging into his native martial arts after teaching it Gwok Jing, which happened shortly after Chow's first appearance.
    That is true. Up to that point, ZBT was behind the other Greats in internal power but after GJ "enlightened" him, he became superior in technique. Later on, the combination of QZ power cultivation method and subconscious 9Yin training allowed him to catch up in internals and surpassed the original Greats. QZ arts and 9Yin are both Taoist based so they have good synergies. Of all the Greats, only ZBT could toy with QQR to the point where QQR had to run away like a HS kid when he sees his bully. ZBT has to be at least 5-6 levels above QQR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    That is true. Up to that point, ZBT was behind the other Greats in internal power but after GJ "enlightened" him, he became superior in technique. Later on, the combination of QZ power cultivation method and subconscious 9Yin training allowed him to catch up in internals and surpassed the original Greats. QZ arts and 9Yin are both Taoist based so they have good synergies. Of all the Greats, only ZBT could toy with QQR to the point where QQR had to run away like a HS kid when he sees his bully. ZBT has to be at least 5-6 levels above QQR.
    ZBT also the only Greats ever toy with pre 16 years JLFW..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    ZBT also the only Greats ever toy with pre 16 years JLFW..
    Weird techniques were the bane of the Golden Wheel Monk, and Chow Bak Tung was the King of Weird Techniques.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Weird techniques were the bane of the Golden Wheel Monk, and Chow Bak Tung was the King of Weird Techniques.
    He once overpowered JLFW in terms of "strength"..

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    Return of the Condor Hero chapter 24..

    Fawang said, “Hand the banner back to me and then come back later tonight to steal it again while I’ll guard it. No matter what method you use, if you are able to steal it again, I’ll give my respects to you as a great hero.”

    Zhou Botong could never resist challenges and the harder it was, the greater the urge to do it. He immediately shot the flag back to Fawang and said, “Catch, I’ll be back for it tonight.”

    Fawang stretched out his hand and caught the flag pole only to realize the great force behind the throw, he quickly circulated his internal energy to resist but in the end, he still had to take two steps back before he steadied himself.

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    I find it incredibly amusing that a thread discussing and comparing Chu Liuxiang and Huang Yaoshi gets hijacked into another discussion of the LOCH/ROCH Greats. All of you never seem to get enough of that, do you? I write this with no sarcasm. I'm genuinely amused by it.

    Futhermore, there is no way to compare Huang Yaoshi and Chu Liuxiang when it comes to martial arts. That would be comparing Rowling's Dumbledore against Tolkien's Gandalf. Yes, we can discuss characterisation and the roles they play in respective novels, but that is it.

    '弹指神通' is an art of Huang Yaoshi. TV script writers gave Chu Liuxiang this art in Chu Liuxiang adaptations. Gu Long never wrote that Chu Liuxiang knew this art; in fact the Buddhist monk Wuhua used '弹指神通' against Chu Liuxiang in their duel in the first novel.
    Last edited by Athena; 06-15-21 at 04:38 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    I find it incredibly amusing that a thread discussing and comparing Chu Liuxiang and Huang Yaoshi gets hijacked into another discussion of the LOCH/ROCH Greats. All you never seem to get enough of that, do you? I write this with no sarcasm. I'm genuinely amused by it.

    Futhermore, there is no way to compare Huang Yaoshi and Chu Liuxiang when it comes to martial arts. That would be comparing Rowling's Dumbledore against Tolkien's Gandalf. Yes, we can discuss characterisation and the roles they play in respective novels, but that is it.

    '弹指神通' is an art of Huang Yaoshi. TV script writers gave Chu Liuxiang this art in Chu Liuxiang adaptations. Gu Long never wrote that Chu Liuxiang knew this art; in fact the Buddhist monk Wuhua used '弹指神通' against Chu Liuxiang in their duel in the first novel.
    In 1979, TVB did the unthinkable and briefly merged the Jin Yong and Gu Long universes. No Flowers Monk himself stated that the Divine Finger Snap was invented by "Wong Yerk See of the East Island." Well, he didn't call it Peach Blossom Island, but it was nevertheless an epic moment when, very briefly, the Jin Yong and Gu Long universes shared a timeline.

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    I think the title should be Chu Liuxiang vs Huang Yaoshi 😁😁😁😁

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