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Thread: Super Yeung Gor Super Fantasy and Hype Thread

  1. #21
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    People, one thing you need to understand about the Sad Palms: it's a Great-level martial art. It's not UBERDUBEROMGIALWAYSWIN martial art like whatever the heck the Janitor Monk uses.

    At 100%, Sad Palms makes Yeung Gor approximately equal to Gwok Jing at the end of ROCH. That's it...and frankly, it will be enough against pretty much any other opponent in ROCH except for Gwok Jing.

    Between Greats-level fighters, unless somebody isn't giving it his all or there are other intervening factors such as injury, severe distraction, etc., combat will not be resolved in under 1000 strokes. That's both a testament to how good these folks are and how closely matched up they are.

    Let's not make a farce of it.

  2. #22
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Yang Guo never progressed to the wooden sword stage. He's not a swordsman. Pre-16, he used the HIS to temporarily bridge his level with the Greats' because at that point, his inner power was not yet at Great's level. Without the HIS, he would lose to QQR. However, once he reached Great's level, ie., post 16 years, he no longer used the HIS, or any sword for that matter. There was absolutely no evidence that he would use a sword, much less a wooden sword, in a serious fight. He went back to his strength, which was sophisticated Great's level palm arts powered by Great level's internals.
    I think Jin Yong himself once remarked that between Yeung Gor and Ling Wu Chung, Ling Wu Chung was decidedly the better swordsman (and it wasn't even close). As an overall martial artist, Yeung Gor is better, but in terms of sword only...yeah, he's very good, but not super great.

  3. #23
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    For Ken: Your statement is true for the original greatest regarding the requirement of 1000 stages to decide a victory.
    But your statement is false regarding YG vs Great-level opponents.
    Please see the post a few years ago by WuxiaMaster and CancerLuna:

    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    We know Yang Guo is stronger than the 4 Greats, but by how much?

    Here are some battles/exchanges/well established opinions which we can take into account:

    1. 4 Greats are equal. Zhou Botong is slightly stronger than 4 Greats.

    2. Huang Yao Shi comment: Only Guo Jing XL18Z could match his palm powers.

    3. GWM fought Yideng, and would have most definitely won if the battle dragged on.

    4. Yang Guo sparring with Zhou Bo Tong: Do we interpret this battle as them being equal or Yang Guo being stronger? Was Yang Guo not giving his all?

    Given the above, the final battle makes it seem like YG is a whole level ahead of the 4 Greats.

    Final Battle 1st Part: Happy YG (who is unable to utilize full power of Sad Palms) manage to evenly match, and is even winning, against GWM? We can even argue that the YG here even weaker than normal YG in his fight against ZBT.

    Final Battle 2nd Part: Sad YG was able to destroy GWM in relatively few moves.

    That means:

    Sad YG >>> YG > ZBT >> GWM >> 4 Greats
    The polling choices makes it hard to vote since the only logical choice is #2.

    YG and ZBT were definitely in the same tier (Great tier) and differences between experts are extremely close. I think the only possible takeaway from YG and ZBT's spar (as well as his with HYS) is that YG has reached the 'Great' level and has reached parity with them.

    To see actual differences in ability, it'd require a life and death match. Within the small list of people that are at the Great level, differences between levels can probably be acknowledged through how long the fights take (qualifier is that some styles naturally take longer to subdue the opponent) or how definitive the win is.

    We see some facts though. (Wording might be off, please fact check )

    1. Pre 16, GJ vs GWM, was said to have to takes 1000+ stances to determine a winner (aka extremely close, probably ~)
    2. Pre 16, YG vs GWM, I'd estimate YG to beat GWM in around the same time period as QQR.
    3. Pre 16, YD vs QQR, Estimated to take 1000+ stances for YD to eek out half stance advantage. (YD > QQR but extremely close)
    4. Pre 16, YG vs QQR, Beat him in a few hundred stances decisively (yes he threw snow in his eye)
    5. Post 16, YD vs GWM, YD was obviously going to lose
    6. Post 16, ZBT vs GWM, Don't remember this too heavily but I believe they were about equal
    6. Post 16, YG vs GWM, In his --->happy<--- state, GWM was afraid he was going to lose in ---->200<----- stances.
    7. Post 16, YG vs GWM, In his --->sad<---- state, won in less than 10 stances.

    I'd say Peak YG with only Sad Palms is about 10-200 stances better than GWM with a definitive win.

    If you look at the other examples, most will be about 1000+ to determine who has the advantage/beginning to win.

    I'll conclude that in a regular spar, YG == GJ == ZBT == Greats == GWM everytime. There just isn't enough bloodlust to determine who's better.

    In a regular fight where YG is serious, I'd give it to YG to win against ZBT/GWM in less than 500 stances everytime.

    So given your last statement,

    Sad YG >>> YG > ZBT >> GWM >> 4 Greats

    I'd change it to
    Sad YG >>> YG > GWM == ZBT > 4 Greats
    and then qualify it with the fact that even though Sad YG is >>> YG, >>> on the left indicate extremely small differences in ability. (But as we already know, even small improvements are extremely hard to attain once you're at a high level.)


    Re: Sad Palms
    I almost wonder if Sad Palms is potentially slightly stronger than just 'Great' Level arts (YYZ, 18DP, Taichi Sword, etc). YG did have access to Dugu's teachings, why not incorporate those elements/intuitions into his own creation?

  4. #24
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    The original Greats

  5. #25
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    You can never quite rely on the Golden Wheel Monk's state of mind as an accurate measure of his opponent's ability because that monk is ALWAYS worried that he's going to lose any time he finds himself up against something new and unexpected. The Golden Wheel Monk is easily rattled.

    Along those same lines, the Golden Wheel Monk's Achilles' heel as a fighter is that he's slow to adjust/compensate when he comes up against something new. It's very idiosyncratic of him and we do not see the other Greats struggle with this problem as much as the Golden Wheel Monk does (review his fight scenes; this happens to him with alarming frequency). Sad Palms being such a strange technique, and one that the Golden Wheel Monk had never seen before, I think he got so rattled/unnerved by it that he was already psychologically defeated before he could mount an effective defense/counterattack within the range of his abilities. I imagine that up against any of the other Greats, Sad Palms would require hundreds of strokes to achieve definitive victory (not guaranteed, though probable against the elder Greats and 50/50 against Gwok Jing).

  6. #26
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    Yang Guo was going to win against Qiu Qian Ren and Jinlun Fawang within 300 stances in a duel base on the fights in the book.

    For the rest of the Greats, including ZBT, a YG with HIS and full-powered Sad Palms would be victorious in 500 stances or less.
    This does not include Guo Jing, maybe

  7. #27
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    Yang Guo was going to win against Qiu Qian Ren and Jinlun Fawang within 300 stances in a duel base on the fights in the book.
    I think Yeung Gor outsmarted Kau Cheen Yan more than overwhelmed him. Yeung Gor cleverly used the terrain and weather conditions to his advantage, and Kau Cheen Yan wasn't exactly in his right mind (meaning his fighting judgment likely suffered gravely).

    For the rest of the Greats, including ZBT, a YG with HIS and full-powered Sad Palms would be victorious in 500 stances or less. This does not include Guo Jing, maybe
    Not sure about five-hundred, but the elders will go down faster due to stamina issues. They were at or nearing 100 years old, after all, while Yeung Gor was in his physical prime in his mid-thirties.

  8. #28
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    To Ken:
    I think this is the first time that you admit that the old Greats would lose to YG, even that you mention only stamina as the factor.
    Your acknowledgement is a victory for all forum posters who had tried to persuade you otherwise throughout the years

  9. #29
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    To Ken:
    I think this is the first time that you admit that the old Greats would lose to YG, even that you mention only stamina as the factor.
    Your acknowledgement is a victory for all forum posters who had tried to persuade you otherwise throughout the years
    It's a bit more nuanced than that. I've long believed that skill-wise, the Greats are on par with each other, but age is age, and when people go beyond a certain age, their stamina is going to suffer. A man in his thirties is naturally going to outlast a man in his nineties, all other things being equal.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It's a bit more nuanced than that. I've long believed that skill-wise, the Greats are on par with each other, but age is age, and when people go beyond a certain age, their stamina is going to suffer. A man in his thirties is naturally going to outlast a man in his nineties, all other things being equal.
    Except for Z3F which I believe still above Wuji even in his 💯+ years old..

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think Jin Yong himself once remarked that between Yeung Gor and Ling Wu Chung, Ling Wu Chung was decidedly the better swordsman (and it wasn't even close). As an overall martial artist, Yeung Gor is better, but in terms of sword only...yeah, he's very good, but not super great.
    TBH I never believe YG < LHC in terms of swordplay since the strongest swordsman LHC ever fought is Chongxu and YG swormanship at least as good as Chongxu even better IMHO except we believe Chongxu Tai Chi sword better than HIS/wooden sword technique and philosophy Jade Maiden sword technique Quanzhen sword technique and Jade Flute Sword technique..

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    TBH I never believe YG < LHC in terms of swordplay since the strongest swordsman LHC ever fought is Chongxu and YG swormanship at least as good as Chongxu even better IMHO except we believe Chongxu Tai Chi sword better than HIS/wooden sword technique and philosophy Jade Maiden sword technique Quanzhen sword technique and Jade Flute Sword technique..
    Somehow, I don't see Yeung Gor blinding nine martial arts experts with a single swordstroke the way that Ling Wu Chung did. I CAN see Yeung Gor doing it with Divine Finger Snap, however.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Somehow, I don't see Yeung Gor blinding nine martial arts experts with a single swordstroke the way that Ling Wu Chung did. I CAN see Yeung Gor doing it with Divine Finger Snap, however.
    But still LHC struggling against Chongxu and even YBQ and YG swordplay no worse if not even better than Chongxu/YBQ..

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    But still LHC struggling against Chongxu and even YBQ and YG swordplay no worse if not even better than Chongxu/YBQ..
    Had Ling Wu Chung mastered Yik Gun Ging yet at the time? If not, he still had a significant inner power deficit against Taoist Chung Hui. Ngok But Kwun, of course, was Ling Wu Chung's teacher and until the very end, Ling Wu Chung never could bring himself to strike out at full force against his teacher.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Had Ling Wu Chung mastered Yik Gun Ging yet at the time? If not, he still had a significant inner power deficit against Taoist Chung Hui. Ngok But Kwun, of course, was Ling Wu Chung's teacher and until the very end, Ling Wu Chung never could bring himself to strike out at full force against his teacher.
    If we consider Yijin Jing it's not sword contest anymore..

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    If we consider Yijin Jing it's not sword contest anymore..
    It's inevitable in wulin.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It's inevitable in wulin.
    That's mean indeed LHC sword skill not better than YG skill since we also consider his Yijin Jing though it's not LHC "basic" neigong skill very different with 9 Yang or Quanzhen which Wuji and GJ basic (default) internal method😁😁😁😁

  18. #38
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    To Ken and Western Eccentric:
    It doesn't matter if YG overall sword's sophiscation is less than LHC.
    Simplicity with power brings superiority.

    YG with immense internal energy and with the HIS and its techniques
    or the weird, unpredictable Sad Palms would wipe the floor with LHC.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    That's mean indeed LHC sword skill not better than YG skill since we also consider his Yijin Jing though it's not LHC "basic" neigong skill very different with 9 Yang or Quanzhen which Wuji and GJ basic (default) internal method😁😁😁😁
    His epic feat of blinding nine experts with Dook Goo 9 Swords occurred before he learned Yik Gun Ging, however.

    We also shouldn't sleep on Taoist Chung Hui: he was probably the best Mo Dong Sect swordsman since Cheung 3 Fung himself.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    To Ken and Western Eccentric:
    It doesn't matter if YG overall sword's sophiscation is less than LHC.
    Simplicity with power brings superiority.

    YG with immense internal energy and with the HIS and its techniques
    or the weird, unpredictable Sad Palms would wipe the floor with LHC.
    I don't know, man...Dook Goo 9 Swords is pretty crazy shiznit. It defies spatial logic much of the time.

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