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Thread: Why were there "restore the Ming" movements, but not "restore the Tang, Sung," etc.?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Why were there "restore the Ming" movements, but not "restore the Tang, Sung," etc.?

    After the Ming Dynasty fell, numerous movements (as we saw in DOMD) arose to drive out the Manchurian Qing regime and restore the Ming. These groups often had competing agendas, but they were all intent on reviving the previous dynasty.

    That seems unique to the post-Ming, early-Qing era. Certainly, at the end of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms era, nobody was under the illusion that they were going to bring back the old Tang Dynasty. A new dynasty, the Sung, would reunify the Central Plains. Moreover, during the Yuan Dynasty, many Han Chinese rebelled against the Mongol regime, but they did not specifically plan to restore the Sung Dynasty. They knew that if they succeeded, a new dynasty (as it turned out, the Ming) would rule the Central Plains.

    Why were the anti-Qing rebels so specifically bent on restoring the Ming Dynasty instead of starting a new one?

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    I studied Microbiology in college, but I also took a lot of Western civilization courses and a few in Japanese history.
    I do not have a good of knowledge in China's history, but I will give it a try.
    Credits go to Wikipedia and Quora.

    Based on historical contexts and some readings,
    I propose the following reasons why pro-Ming and anti-Qing dynasty:

    1.
    The Ming Dynasty was considered to be the last Han Chinese dynasty before the arrival of the Qing Dynasty.
    Since approximately 90% of Chinese were of Han ethnicity, support for a restoration of the Ming Dynasty was definitely greater than the Qing Dynasty.
    Furthermore, under the Qing Dynasty, the Han Chinese were somewhat oppressed and were forced to wear pigtails, which was a sign of humiliation against the Han.

    2.
    The last emperor of the Qing Dynasty, Emperor Puyi, was considered a Japanese puppet , and he collaborated with Imperial Japan against China. He governed the Japanese client state of Manchukuo.
    Therefore, the Qing officials were viewed as weak and also traitors who fought against China.

    3.
    Most Chinese people believe that it was the Qing’s Dynasties fault for bringing down the Celestial Empire of China and bring humiliation towards the Chinese civilization. They often blame Qing for not modernizing quicker and for signing the unequal treaties with the Western Powers and Japan.

    Even though, from my point of view, it was the Ming Dynasty who laid the foundation for those humiliating events centuries later.

    For example, in 1860, during the Second Opium War in China and in retaliation for the torture and execution of almost twenty European and Indian prisoners, James Bruce, 8th Earl of Elgin from Great Britain ordered the destruction of the Old Summer Palace in Beijing, an architectural wonder with immeasurable collections of artworks and historic antiques, and as result inflicting invaluable loss of cultural heritage toward the Chinese.

    The Summer Palace's destruction in 1860 by the order of High Commissioner to China, James Bruce and his triumphant entry to the center of Beijing, and his procession symbolized British and Western domination and Chinese humiliation were some of the low points during the Qing dynasty.
    Subsequently, the High Commisser of China compelled the Qing dynasty officials to sign the Convention of Peking, which added Kowloon Peninsula to the British crown colony of Hong Kong.

    All in all, I think national pride/patriotism and Western humiliation were the leading reasons of why many Chinese were hoping to revert to the Ming dynasty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    I studied Microbiology in college, but I also took a lot of Western civilization courses and a few in Japanese history.
    I do not have a good of knowledge in China's history, but I will give it a try.
    Credits go to Wikipedia and Quora.

    Based on historical contexts and some readings,
    I propose the following reasons why pro-Ming and anti-Qing dynasty:

    1.
    The Ming Dynasty was considered to be the last Han Chinese dynasty before the arrival of the Qing Dynasty.
    Since approximately 90% of Chinese were of Han ethnicity, support for a restoration of the Ming Dynasty was definitely greater than the Qing Dynasty.
    Furthermore, under the Qing Dynasty, the Han Chinese were somewhat oppressed and were forced to wear pigtails, which was a sign of humiliation against the Han.

    2.
    The last emperor of the Qing Dynasty, Emperor Puyi, was considered a Japanese puppet , and he collaborated with Imperial Japan against China. He governed the Japanese client state of Manchukuo.
    Therefore, the Qing officials were viewed as weak and also traitors who fought against China.

    3.
    Most Chinese people believe that it was the Qing’s Dynasties fault for bringing down the Celestial Empire of China and bring humiliation towards the Chinese civilization. They often blame Qing for not modernizing quicker and for signing the unequal treaties with the Western Powers and Japan.

    Even though, from my point of view, it was the Ming Dynasty who laid the foundation for those humiliating events centuries later.

    For example, in 1860, during the Second Opium War in China and in retaliation for the torture and execution of almost twenty European and Indian prisoners, James Bruce, 8th Earl of Elgin from Great Britain ordered the destruction of the Old Summer Palace in Beijing, an architectural wonder with immeasurable collections of artworks and historic antiques, and as result inflicting invaluable loss of cultural heritage toward the Chinese.

    The Summer Palace's destruction in 1860 by the order of High Commissioner to China, James Bruce and his triumphant entry to the center of Beijing, and his procession symbolized British and Western domination and Chinese humiliation were some of the low points during the Qing dynasty.
    Subsequently, the High Commisser of China compelled the Qing dynasty officials to sign the Convention of Peking, which added Kowloon Peninsula to the British crown colony of Hong Kong.

    All in all, I think national pride/patriotism and Western humiliation were the leading reasons of why many Chinese were hoping to revert to the Ming dynasty.
    Further thoughts:
    Most Chinese probably felt that they do not want their empire to be greatly influenced by or ran by foreigners, so most chose the Ming dynasty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    After the Ming Dynasty fell, numerous movements (as we saw in DOMD) arose to drive out the Manchurian Qing regime and restore the Ming. These groups often had competing agendas, but they were all intent on reviving the previous dynasty.
    Strictly speaking, that wasn't true. They supported one particular figure to be the emperor, but would happily and self-righteously murder anyone who spoke of supporting someone else to the throne. Their loyalty was to a specific person, not to the Ming dynasty itself. Anyone else, as far as they were concerned, was not of the 'true' Ming line, but mere pretenders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    That seems unique to the post-Ming, early-Qing era. Certainly, at the end of the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms era, nobody was under the illusion that they were going to bring back the old Tang Dynasty. A new dynasty, the Sung, would reunify the Central Plains.
    There was the Southern Tang during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms era, that claimed to be a continuation of the Tang dynasty. Of course, it was just yet another potential successor regardless of the name, and later got crushed by Zhou and Song.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Moreover, during the Yuan Dynasty, many Han Chinese rebelled against the Mongol regime, but they did not specifically plan to restore the Sung Dynasty. They knew that if they succeeded, a new dynasty (is turned out, the Ming) would rule the Central Plains.
    There was an important conversation about this that was missed out in both TVB adaptations, involving a character Li Xihua (who was also omitted). LXH asked Liu Dahong (of the Mu palace) why Zhu Yuanzhang did not support a descendant of the Song royal family to the throne instead of taking it for himself, to which LDH replied that ZYZ had fought many bloody battles to reclaim the country and therefore deserved it, plus the Song descendants had not contributed anything to reclaiming the country, so even if they were handed the throne on a silver platter the populace would not support them. LXH pointed out that that may well be true for the Ming descendants that were supported by the Mu palace and Heaven-Earth society too, and that anyone (even Chen Jinnan, Mu Jiansheng or LDH himself) could become the emperor if they were sufficiently supported by the masses. Though perfectly logical, it didn't down well with either side.

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    @Ken Cheng:
    I would like to see your inputs regarding why many Chinese wanted to revert to the Ming dynasty.

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    Murong's family even try to restore their "great Yan"..

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    First is timing. Most of the Qing stories are set in Kangxi or early Qianlong eras, where the memory of Ming rule was still relatively fresh. By the end of Qianlong's reign the restore Ming movement was pretty dead.
    Second is focus. The end of Tang lead to the complete break up of China to there was no focal point for a Tang restoration.
    Third is good old fashion racism.
    Forth this Song specific, is pragmatism. By the end of the Yuan Dynasty the most powerful fraction was the soon to be Ming Dynasty, why would they forfeit their power for a lost Dynasty.

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    Adding onto what Doc Kwok said, the Tang Dynasty literally fell apart due to internal issues rather than a foreign invader, so there was nothing to bandwagon against. As for the Song Dynasty, it’s decline was a slow, rotting process: first the Northern Song was lost to the Jurchens, loyal soldiers of the likes of Yue Fei were put to death on trumped up charges, and then the Mongols battered away from the north for two decades before totally breaking in. In short, the Song morale and public opinion towards the competence of the Song government was slowly ground away.

    In contrast, the Manchu invasion of the Ming was both too fast and too slow: after Wu Sangui let in the Manchus (who were actually Jurchen descendants, but I digress), they swiftly claimed rulership over the entire empire. However, unlike the Mongols, the Manchus had never really crushed the Ming army, and so it took them decades to stabilize their new empire and defeat the Ming loyalists, during which time many people fanned the flames of dissension against them. Similarly, the Song Emperor actually surrendered to the Mongols, causing a loss of popular legitimacy, whereas no such surrender happened with the Ming due to the Chongzhen Emperor’s suicide.

    Basically, the Mongols took decades to take over China, but did so thoroughly (albeit bad governance ruined things in the long run); in contrast, the Manchus took over China in name almost instantly, but had to spend decades to really consolidate their rule, and those decades are where most of the Jinyong novels were focused - the early years of the Qing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Adding onto what Doc Kwok said, the Tang Dynasty literally fell apart due to internal issues rather than a foreign invader, so there was nothing to bandwagon against. As for the Song Dynasty, it’s decline was a slow, rotting process: first the Northern Song was lost to the Jurchens, loyal soldiers of the likes of Yue Fei were put to death on trumped up charges, and then the Mongols battered away from the north for two decades before totally breaking in. In short, the Song morale and public opinion towards the competence of the Song government was slowly ground away.
    The same could be said for the Ming dynasty. At the very end of DOMD:

    顧查黃呂四人你瞧瞧我,我瞧瞧你,想起了明朝各朝的皇帝,自開國的明太祖直至末代的崇禎,若不是殘忍暴虐, 便是昏庸胡塗,有那一個及得上康熙?他四人是當代大儒,熟知史事,不願抹煞了良心說話,不由得 都默默點頭。

    Gu, Cha, Huang and Lu looked at each other, thinking of the reign of each emperor in the Ming dynasty, from the founder of the dynasty all the way to Chongzhen at the end, if they were not cruel tyrants, then they were incompetent and foolish, which one could compare to Kangxi? These four men were the foremost scholars of their time, familiar with history, they were not willing to speak against their consciences, but couldn't help but nod.

    我們幾人計議了幾個月,都覺大明氣數已盡,天下百姓已不歸心於前明。實在是前明的歷朝皇帝把百姓殺得太苦, 人人思之痛恨。

    We have discussed (these matters) for a couple of months, we all feel that the Ming dynasty's time has passed, the population's loyalty no longer lies with the former Ming. The truth is that the emperors of the previous dynasty have hurt the people too badly, everyone recalls this with hatred.

    The memories of the past Ming dynasty were fresh in peoples' minds at the time, so outside of a small band of Ming loyalists, the average civilian would not want to have the previous dynasty back if the current regime provided for them well (which it did). The main strikes against Manchu rule were the atrocities of the invasion (though every dynasty starts with mass bloodshed - the Qing were not unusual in that regard), and the fact that they were 'foreign barbarians' (i.e. racism). The memories of the former fade away with time, and the latter was not enough to stir the populace into general revolt.

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    Aside from the Ming revivalists, it seemed like the ordinary man on the street didn't really hate the Qing overlords that much. Most went along with it, as at the very least, the Qing provided some stability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Aside from the Ming revivalists, it seemed like the ordinary man on the street didn't really hate the Qing overlords that much. Most went along with it, as at the very least, the Qing provided some stability.
    It also helped that Kangxi was a very competent ruler, who respected Han Culture and was benevolent to the people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    The same could be said for the Ming dynasty. At the very end of DOMD:

    顧查黃呂四人你瞧瞧我,我瞧瞧你,想起了明朝各朝的皇帝,自開國的明太祖直至末代的崇禎,若不是殘忍暴虐, 便是昏庸胡塗,有那一個及得上康熙?他四人是當代大儒,熟知史事,不願抹煞了良心說話,不由得 都默默點頭。

    Gu, Cha, Huang and Lu looked at each other, thinking of the reign of each emperor in the Ming dynasty, from the founder of the dynasty all the way to Chongzhen at the end, if they were not cruel tyrants, then they were incompetent and foolish, which one could compare to Kangxi? These four men were the foremost scholars of their time, familiar with history, they were not willing to speak against their consciences, but couldn't help but nod.
    The Hongzhi Emperor didn't seem so bad. I wonder if this is meant to be the emperor who appeared in Gu Long's LUK SIU FUNG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Hongzhi Emperor didn't seem so bad. I wonder if this is meant to be the emperor who appeared in Gu Long's LUK SIU FUNG.
    It's definitely a vast oversimplification. Even the violent emperors like Hongwu or Yongle did a lot of good for the country, albeit at a huge cost of lives (that may or may not have been strictly necessary). Some of the earlier emperors weren't too bad at all. However, it all went downhill at around Zhengde's reign. The Ming dynasty does seem to have a large proportion of actively bad emperors though (as opposed to merely mediocre ones).

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    If you are Han/non-Manchu Chinese then you are second/third/fourth/ect class citizen. Life is suck for you so you want to overthrow the dynasty. Ming Dynasty is much better for the non-Manchu people. If the Ming Dynasty was on power during the 19th century, the century of humiliation would NOT happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    If you are Han/non-Manchu Chinese then you are second/third/fourth/ect class citizen. Life is suck for you so you want to overthrow the dynasty. Ming Dynasty is much better for the non-Manchu people. If the Ming Dynasty was on power during the 19th century, the century of humiliation would NOT happen.
    Highly unlikely. The Ming Dynasty, towards the end, was just as weak and corrupt as the Qing Dynasty became. The Kang-Qian period of the Qing Dynasty brought China to its largest population and largest territorial size it ever reached. While both dynasties had their low points (no king rules forever), I would argue the heights of the Qing Dynasty were significantly greater than the heights the Ming Dynasty ever reached.
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    The Tang (and the Sui) was not a strictly Han Chinese Dynasty. Xianbei blood ran strong in the Li family; they were Xiabeinized Chinese.

    Incidentally, "Dugu" is a Xianbei surname. Tang Taizong's wife was from a Dugu family; they were all told to sinicize their names when Tang Taizong came into power. Makes me wonder if Dugu Qiubai lived during the Sui/Tang Dynasty.
    Last edited by Dirt; 08-28-21 at 11:36 AM.

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