Dugu Qiubai vs. Wang Chongyang+Lin Chaoying

[Ken Cheng]

The same can be said of Hong Qi and Ouyang Feng when they were fighting each other on Peach Blossom Island in LOCH. They both kept coming up with new moves to try to outwit each other in their fight.

They certainly all didn't become Greats by fighting stupidly.

[FeilongZ]

Neutralizing is neutralizing. What's this "temporary" business?



East Heretic Wong Yerk See isn't stupid old Golden Wheel Monk. Unlike everybody's favorite Mongolian imperial master, Wong Yerk See isn't the kind of idiot who keeps doubling down on the same thing once he sees that a strategy is starting to lose its efficacy. Remember that we're talking about the man of a thousand tricks...someone even smarter, more knowledgeable, and more experienced than his daughter Wong Yung, who was notorious throughout wulin for those attributes. If Divine Finger Snap isn't working out, Wong Yerk See switches tactics and tries any one of dozens and dozens of other methods at his fingertips. In his own way, Wong Yerk See is the most dangerous Great. He kind of reminds me of Batman in the Justice League: he's not as powerful as the others, but his resourcefulness and seemingly endless bag of tricks causes his more powerful peers to be wary of him.

Exchanging internal or external techniques, YG's Sad Palms would put HYS at a huge disadvantage due to its overbearing power and weird techniques.

If ZBT was in a mostly defensive mode and tried everything he got to defend against some of YG's most profound stances, HYS would mostly have a much difficult time against Sad Palms.

[FeilongZ]

Personally, this is an impossible scenario. I am pointing at how Wang Chongyang and Lin Chaoying had love but no emotional coordination with one another. That is going to hinder the cohesiveness of the Swordplay of the Jade Maiden. On top of that, there is a discrepancy in martial arts level between the two. Lin Chaoying, at her peak, is not the same as Wang Chongyang at his height.

In history, Wang Chongyang died at the age of 58. In the Jin Yong universe, we don’t know how old Wang Chongyang was when he died. Given the rich background Jin Yong have Wang Chongyang, I always deduced that he must have been late 70s or early 80s when he died. There is no actual proof of that, and this is mere conjecture from my side.

In the novel, we know that Lin Chaoying created and then (in edition 3) mastered her own art, but shortly died afterwards. Wang Chongyang secretly entered the tomb to pay respects and mourn the love of his life. Then, he saw the carvings on the walls, and his face turned white. He, then, went back to ponder and contemplate his martial arts for three years. He tried to device a new set of martial arts to counter Lin Chaoying’s art of Jade Maiden. He had some initial success, but failed to make a comprehensive and cohesive new set. He conceded that Lin Chaoying was more talented and probably before her death, Lin Chaoying, had finally bridged that gap that always existed between Wang Chongyang and herself (and maybe surpassed him).

After 15 to 20 years, when he won the first tournament of Huashan, he had the chance to read the Jiujin manual out of curiosity. After contemplating and pondering he understood that mastering Jiuyin would be the key in defeating the art of Jade Maiden, and he laughed heartily realising this. I have to admit that Jin Yong’s description of Wang Chongyang’s understanding Jiuyin can be interpreted differently:

1) He understood that if a person learns this, he/she/they would be superior and not fear Jiuyin, but Wang Chongyang did not ‘learn, study or master’ it.

2) He did understand and master the necessary the essence of Jiuyin because Jiuyin is so much aligned with his own Taoist Quanzhen martial arts.

他武功當時已是天下第一，九陰真經中所載的諸般秘奧精義，一經過目，思索上十余日，即已全盤豁然領悟，當下 仰天長笑，回到活死人墓，在全墓最隱秘的地下石室頂上刻下九陰真經的要旨，并一一指出破除玉女心經之法。( Chapter 7)

I lean towards interpretation two. With that said, Wang Chongyang had at least 15 to 20 years to bridge any gap that Lin Chaoying had bridged or surpassed Wang Chongyang all those years ago. So, both their peaks are different. It is similar to saying that Huang Yaoshi and Yideng are better post-16 years than Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng at their final duel at Huashan. Yes, Huang Yaoshi and Yideng had 17 years more to improve their internal energy, mastery of their arts.

In short:
Originally, Wang Chongyang was better than Lin Chaoying. Then, Wang Chongyang built a resistance to the Jin Empire, and he was pre-occupied with the logistics or the resistance. Lin Chaoying got a chance to improve and became better than Wang Chongyang. After the resistance was quelled by the Jin Empire, Wang Chongyang built the Ancient Tomb and resided for years refusing to see anyone. In that time, he improved his martial arts, while, Lin Chaoying (probably due to a broken heart) fell seriously ill several time, so he became better again than her again. Then, the infamous ‘breakup’ between the two at Mount Zhongnan, when Wang was beter than her. She got the tomb and created her ‘bane’ on Quanzhen martial arts, and mastered it. Probably she got ahead again, but she died shortly afterwards. Wang Chongyang had 15 to 20 years more time to train; obviously he improved again. Then, he got the Jiuyin boost and the Yiyang Zhi boost, but he also died shortly after mastering those skills.
They were never in synch emotionally, but they were also not in synch martial arts-wise; unlike Yang Guo and the Little Dragon Girl.

So, I think individually they might give Dugu Qiubai an interesting fight or challenge. However, there is no ‘right time/moment’ for them to use the Swordplay of the Jade Maiden, as they were both not in synch with one another.

Great analysis regarding the couple's potential synchronization issues.

However, individually, WCY or LCY would be no match for Dugu qiubai.

I think it would take a few stances for Dugu to defeat LCY.
Dugu would use sheer force to overcome LCY's speed. "Simplicity brings Superiority"

Based on WuxiaMaster's rankings, Dugu is in the "Legendary Tier", meaning he would easily defeat even with the combined forces of WCY and LCY.

[pannonian]

Neutralizing is neutralizing. What's this "temporary" business?



East Heretic Wong Yerk See isn't stupid old Golden Wheel Monk. Unlike everybody's favorite Mongolian imperial master, Wong Yerk See isn't the kind of idiot who keeps doubling down on the same thing once he sees that a strategy is starting to lose its efficacy. Remember that we're talking about the man of a thousand tricks...someone even smarter, more knowledgeable, and more experienced than his daughter Wong Yung, who was notorious throughout wulin for those attributes. If Divine Finger Snap isn't working out, Wong Yerk See switches tactics and tries any one of dozens and dozens of other methods at his fingertips. In his own way, Wong Yerk See is the most dangerous Great. He kind of reminds me of Batman in the Justice League: he's not as powerful as the others, but his resourcefulness and seemingly endless bag of tricks causes his more powerful peers to be wary of him.

See the cited duel with Yang Guo. It was obvious he couldn't match Yang Guo in palms, so he stops the fight with Tanzhi Shentong and admits his inferiority in palms. The only time Huang Yaoshi was embarrassed in a fight was when he got his finger stuck in Ouyang Feng's teeth. The trick at his finger tip was, on that occasion, literally his downfall. Although I'd call it an example of Jinyong's bad writing of fights in LOCH.

[Ken Cheng]

See the cited duel with Yang Guo. It was obvious he couldn't match Yang Guo in palms, so he stops the fight with Tanzhi Shentong and admits his inferiority in palms. The only time Huang Yaoshi was embarrassed in a fight was when he got his finger stuck in Ouyang Feng's teeth. The trick at his finger tip was, on that occasion, literally his downfall. Although I'd call it an example of Jinyong's bad writing of fights in LOCH.

When his finger was caught between Au Yeung Fung's teeth, didn't Wong Yerk See try to just club Au Yeung Fung on the head with his flute? I think Wong Yung also tried to intervene on her dad's behalf by trying to crack Au Yeung Fung's head open with a small boulder, or did Hung 7 Gung launch an attack on Au Yeung Fung to take the heat off of Wong Yerk See?

[Dirt]

However, individually, WCY or LCY would be no match for Dugu qiubai.

Wang Chongyang defeated 4 Greats. Can Dugu Qiubai say the same?

[Western Eccentric]

Neutralizing is neutralizing. What's this "temporary" business?



East Heretic Wong Yerk See isn't stupid old Golden Wheel Monk. Unlike everybody's favorite Mongolian imperial master, Wong Yerk See isn't the kind of idiot who keeps doubling down on the same thing once he sees that a strategy is starting to lose its efficacy. Remember that we're talking about the man of a thousand tricks...someone even smarter, more knowledgeable, and more experienced than his daughter Wong Yung, who was notorious throughout wulin for those attributes. If Divine Finger Snap isn't working out, Wong Yerk See switches tactics and tries any one of dozens and dozens of other methods at his fingertips. In his own way, Wong Yerk See is the most dangerous Great. He kind of reminds me of Batman in the Justice League: he's not as powerful as the others, but his resourcefulness and seemingly endless bag of tricks causes his more powerful peers to be wary of him.

Totally agree his Divine Snap was incredible even could "injure" JLFW from 💯 paces..

[Western Eccentric]

Wang Chongyang defeated 4 Greats. Can Dugu Qiubai say the same?

WCY defeat them separately not at once if 4 Greats attacked him in union he would die in humility..

[Ken Cheng]

WCY defeat them separately not at once if 4 Greats attacked him in union he would die in humility..

I don't think we actually know how the great struggle worked. We only know that when it was over, Wong Chung Yeung was acknowledged as the best of the five combatants who participated.

[Western Eccentric]

I don't think we actually know how the great struggle worked. We only know that when it was over, Wong Chung Yeung was acknowledged as the best of the five combatants who participated.

Yeeep but given their arrogance I don't think Greats attacked WCY together HYS and H7G even getting ashamed when they join force to beat OYF during 2nd Huashan duel..

[FeilongZ]

Wang Chongyang defeated 4 Greats. Can Dugu Qiubai say the same?

Not against the 4 combined forces at the same time.

Nothing too impressive of what WCY did.

DGKB would have destroy each of them in 1 stance or a few stances.

No need for Dugu, post-16 YG with Sad Palms or equipped with the HIS would obliviate each of them during the Huashan Tournament.
No doubt about that.

[Western Eccentric]

Not against the 4 combined forces at the same time.

Nothing too impressive of what WCY did.

DGKB would have destroy each of them in 1 stance or a few stances.

No need for Dugu, post-16 YG with Sad Palms or equipped with the HIS would obliviate each of them during the Huashan Tournament.
No doubt about that.

I think even without Sad Palm or HIS YG could beat LOCH Greats during 2nd Huashan duel mostly due superior technique and strength since he could fought evenly with ZBT which he himself admit he much stronger now than before (when he is young)..

[Dirt]

No single individual could defeat Wang Chongyang. Wang Chongyang was supreme under Heaven.

[FeilongZ]

Not against the 4 combined forces at the same time.

Nothing too impressive of what WCY did.

DGKB would have destroy each of them in 1 stance or a few stances.

No need for Dugu, post-16 YG with Sad Palms or equipped with the HIS would obliviate each of them during the Huashan Tournament.
No doubt about that.

Even pre-16 YG with the HIS would have a good chance of coming out of the tournament as the supreme martial artist of that particualr time.

[FeilongZ]

No single individual could defeat Wang Chongyang. Wang Chongyang was supreme under Heaven.

Yes, he was so supreme that he mostly likely over-exerted his energy and passed away shortly after the tournament.

[Western Eccentric]

No single individual could defeat Wang Chongyang. Wang Chongyang was supreme under Heaven.

ZBT once said if WCY still alive until ROCH he would easily beat JLFW within 10 moves while YG when his Sad Palm at "full power" could beat JLFW in 4-5 moves so based on ZBT logic YG > WCY..

[Western Eccentric]

Even pre-16 YG with the HIS would have a good chance of coming out of the tournament as the supreme martial artist of that particualr time.

Pre-16 years HIS YG might be beat any of HYS or YD or H7G but I doubt he could beat ZBT and OYF..

[Dirt]

Yes, he was so supreme that he mostly likely over-exerted his energy and passed away shortly after the tournament.

Age is a major factor. Yideng vs JLGS. OYF and HQ wore each other out fighting.

[Western Eccentric]

Age is a major factor. Yideng vs JLGS. OYF and HQ wore each other out fighting.

In YD case I think is not only about age but his fighting style since ZBT which older than him could fought JLFW without trouble..

[FeilongZ]

Pre-16 years HIS YG might be beat any of HYS or YD or H7G but I doubt he could beat ZBT and OYF..

Why not beat OYF?
How is he more special than the other Greats against pre-16 YG?