Mid-Tier martial arts

[Dirt]

Could Dong Xie, Xi Du, Nan Di, Bei Gai (and QQR) have still become Greats with Zhi (Zi?) Xia Shen Gong like they did with Tan Zhi Shentong, Hama Gong, Yiyang Zhi, Xiang Long 18 Zhang (and Iron Palms) ?

[Western Eccentric]

Could Dong Xie, Xi Du, Nan Di, Bei Gai (and QQR) have still become Greats with Zhi (Zi?) Xia Shen Gong like they did with Tan Zhi Shentong, Hama Gong, Yiyang Zhi, Xiang Long 18 Zhang (and Iron Palms) ?

Well no one from HYS original student (except HR and Cheng Ying) ever learn Divine Snap or Jade Flute Sword yet they still could become formidable fighters in wulin so base on HYS (and Greats) talent which much more talented then MCF or LCF they would be could become good fighters too even without top skills like 18 Dragon Palm or Yiyang Zhi though might be not as strong as GJ or YG or Wuji but at least no worse than end-LOCH GJ IMHO..

[Ken Cheng]

Well no one from HYS original student (except HR and Cheng Ying) ever learn Divine Snap or Jade Flute Sword yet they still could become formidable fighters in wulin so base on HYS (and Greats) talent which much more talented then MCF or LCF they would be could become good fighters too even without top skills like 18 Dragon Palm or Yiyang Zhi though might be not as strong as GJ or YG or Wuji but at least no worse than end-LOCH GJ IMHO..

I think Mui Chiu Fung and Luk Sing Fung had already maxed out their potential by the time we saw them in LOCH.

[Western Eccentric]

I think Mui Chiu Fung and Luk Sing Fung had already maxed out their potential by the time we saw them in LOCH.

I mean HYS and other Greats have more potential and talent than MCF so if MCF could reach such level I think HYS should be too even higher than MCF though might be not as good as GJ or Wuji..

[Dirt]

Well no one from HYS original student (except HR and Cheng Ying) ever learn Divine Snap or Jade Flute Sword yet they still could become formidable fighters in wulin so base on HYS (and Greats) talent which much more talented then MCF or LCF they would be could become good fighters too even without top skills like 18 Dragon Palm or Yiyang Zhi though might be not as strong as GJ or YG or Wuji but at least no worse than end-LOCH GJ IMHO..

Well, Quan Zhen 7 Zhi were no Greats but they were no slouches themselves.

[Western Eccentric]

Well, Quan Zhen 7 Zhi were no Greats but they were no slouches themselves.

Only Qiu Chuji Wang Chuyi and Ma Yu considered as top fighters while the others are slump while among HYS student even the youngest Feng Mofeng could fought LMC evenly which more or less equal with MCF and MCF could easily kill Hao Datong Sun Bu'er and Tan Chuduan..

[Dirt]

Does anybody think that any of the Quan Zhen 7 Zhi were equal to Bai Mei Ying Wang, Zi Shan Lung Wang, Qing Yi Fu Wang? Dang it, what is the Chinese name for Golden Mane Lion King?

[Western Eccentric]

Does anybody think that any of the Quan Zhen 7 Zhi were equal to Bai Mei Ying Wang, Zi Shan Lung Wang, Qing Yi Fu Wang? Dang it, what is the Chinese name for Golden Mane Lion King?

I think only Ma Yu and Qiu Chuji equal with Xie Xun or Yin Tianzheng..

[Ken Cheng]

I think only Ma Yu and Qiu Chuji equal with Xie Xun or Yin Tianzheng..

I think the Ming Cult guys were stronger, but perhaps that's only because they were more aggressive fighters. 7 Seung Fist, especially, was a "no prisoners" type martial art.

[Western Eccentric]

I think the Ming Cult guys were stronger, but perhaps that's only because they were more aggressive fighters. 7 Seung Fist, especially, was a "no prisoners" type martial art.

Perhaps the different between QCJ or MY and Ming Lords like ZBT and The Old Greats..

[EdenResident]

Does anybody think that any of the Quan Zhen 7 Zhi were equal to Bai Mei Ying Wang, Zi Shan Lung Wang, Qing Yi Fu Wang? Dang it, what is the Chinese name for Golden Mane Lion King?

It's Jin Mao Shi Wang.

On the hole, the HSDS Mongol mercenaries are easily better than the Jin mercenaries. They even possess near Great-level arts like the Diamond finger. By being on par with these guys, the Ming lords are one tier stronger than the Quanzhen Taoists.

I'd rank these characters like this.

Mongol mercenaries = Ming Lords > Wudang heroes = 7 Quanzhen Taoists = ROCH Mongol mercenaries > (slightly) Jin mercenaries.

Of course those at the top of their groups like Ma Yu, Wudang Hero #1 are closer to the worst guys of the next group.

[Western Eccentric]

It's Jin Mao Shi Wang.

On the hole, the HSDS Mongol mercenaries are easily better than the Jin mercenaries. They even possess near Great-level arts like the Diamond finger. By being on par with these guys, the Ming lords are one tier stronger than the Quanzhen Taoists.

I'd rank these characters like this.

Mongol mercenaries = Ming Lords > Wudang heroes = 7 Quanzhen Taoists = ROCH Mongol mercenaries > (slightly) Jin mercenaries.

Of course those at the top of their groups like Ma Yu, Wudang Hero #1 are closer to the worst guys of the next group.

Mongol Mercenaries you mean ZM hechmen : A San A Da and A Er well if true they are slightly better than Ming Lords perhaps on par with L/R Envoy but I agree MY or QCJ no worse than Bat King or Dragon King and almost roughly equal with Lion King or Eagle King..

[EdenResident]

Ah San is on par with the Ming Lords. Ah Er and Ah Da should be slightly stronger but not by much. I think Eagle King and Lion King can fight them to a draw while Bat King and Dragon King would lose.

Fan Yao is slightly better than Ah Da (ZWJ's thought when testing Fan Yao's skills) and Fan Yao/Yang Xiao are not much better than Eagle King.

Ma Yu and QCJ may draw against the Bat king and beat the Dragon king but I see nothing from their skillsets that would suggest they might be equal to Eagle King or Lion king.

Remember that Eagle King destroyed the Kongdong elders and was holding quite well against during the round robin fights. QCJ struggled against scrubs like Jiangnan 7.

[Western Eccentric]

Ah San is on par with the Ming Lords. Ah Er and Ah Da should be slightly stronger but not by much. I think Eagle King and Lion King can fight them to a draw while Bat King and Dragon King would lose.

Fan Yao is slightly better than Ah Da (ZWJ's thought when testing Fan Yao's skills) and Fan Yao/Yang Xiao are not much better than Eagle King.

Ma Yu and QCJ may draw against the Bat king and beat the Dragon king but I see nothing from their skillsets that would suggest they might be equal to Eagle King or Lion king.

Remember that Eagle King destroyed the Kongdong elders and was holding quite well against during the round robin fights. QCJ struggled against scrubs like Jiangnan 7.

I think is not fair since you comparing LOCH QCJ with YTZ also L/R Envoy always better than Ming Lords proven with their fought against Du Nan which YTZ die while YX still alive and I think A San a bit better than YTZ or XX..

[CC]

Think about it this way.

If the LOCH 5 did not exist, and XF did not exist.

We would look at Yiyang Zhi and 18DP as, oh not top-tier arts. Because the best examples were people like Wang Jiantong (who got smashed 30:1 by XYS) and Duan Yanqing (who was like Xuan Monk level - whose best example is Xuanci - who also got smashed 30:1 by XYS).

[Western Eccentric]

Think about it this way.

If the LOCH 5 did not exist, and XF did not exist.

We would look at Yiyang Zhi and 18DP as, oh not top-tier arts. Because the best examples were people like Wang Jiantong (who got smashed 30:1 by XYS) and Duan Yanqing (who was like Xuan Monk level - whose best example is Xuanci - who also got smashed 30:1 by XYS).

But XYS destroyed them 30 years ago which even Xuanci wasn't abbot at that time so 30 years later they should be better though still not XYS match but at least could give him some of decent fight also I think during 1st Huashan duel YD is not different with DYQ or DZM in terms of Yiyang Zhi proficiency..

[CC]

But XYS destroyed them 30 years ago which even Xuanci wasn't abbot at that time so 30 years later they should be better though still not XYS match but at least could give him some of decent fight also I think during 1st Huashan duel YD is not different with DYQ or DZM in terms of Yiyang Zhi proficiency..

1. 30 yrs ago, XYS should be similarly scaled down and his martial arts didnt even have a name. Obviously he thought Shaolin 72 arts was better thats why he spent so much time forcing himself to stufy it.

2. Regardless, if DYQ and DZM was the peak of Yiyang Zhi, they are a few tiers below the top in the novel. Does that make it mid tier?

BTW, I think Xuanci should be Abbot. He had high ranking in Wulin and there was no other mention of another Abbot.

[Dirt]

2. Regardless, if DYQ and DZM was the peak of Yiyang Zhi, they are a few tiers below the top in the novel. Does that make it mid tier?

I question whether DYQ's Yiyang Zhi could compete with Yideng's Yiyang Zhi. DYQ depended on his crutches to express his Yiyang Zhi; Yideng depended on nothing except the true expressions of the martial art while fighting JLGS; formlessness.

[Western Eccentric]

1. 30 yrs ago, XYS should be similarly scaled down and his martial arts didnt even have a name. Obviously he thought Shaolin 72 arts was better thats why he spent so much time forcing himself to stufy it.

2. Regardless, if DYQ and DZM was the peak of Yiyang Zhi, they are a few tiers below the top in the novel. Does that make it mid tier?

BTW, I think Xuanci should be Abbot. He had high ranking in Wulin and there was no other mention of another Abbot.

1. But after studied Shaolin skills for 30 years he (and MRB) still only as good as 30 y.o XF so that mean the difference between XYS pre-30 years and post-30 years level is not that big or he is too "clumsy" since he couldn't bettered XF even after 30 years training Shaolin arts

2. I mean YD might be around DYQ/DZM level during 1st Huashan duel and WCY around Kurong level in DGSD they're really only "mid-tier" fighters but in Trilogy era they're considered as "Greats"

3. I think you right

[CC]

I question whether DYQ's Yiyang Zhi could compete with Yideng's Yiyang Zhi. DYQ depended on his crutches to express his Yiyang Zhi; Yideng depended on nothing except the true expressions of the martial art while fighting JLGS; formlessness.

I dont think so either. But I was responding to the other guy who claimed DYZ = 1st Huashan Yideng.

Anyway, my whole point was that maybe we are just giving 'Great level' skills this status because the Greats used it. I believe anything (except those scrub level Weituo Fist or Six Tiger Gate Breaker Sabre) from Zixia level onwards in the hands of the elite will still be outstanding.