Softcap Theory - The Immortal Limit Breakers of Jinyong

[Ren Wo Xing]

If I not wrong JY said that it's due JLFW old age that he couldn't reach level 11 not because he not "talented" so I think if he learn level 10th of Dragon/Elephant Prajna since early-ROCH or 10 years younger he would reach at least Lv 11..

I do not recall this - I only recall JLFW thinking to himself that he might or might not be able to reach level 11, but it didn't matter because level 10 should already be enough for him to sweep the world, so he just came out of training.

[Western Eccentric]

I do not recall this - I only recall JLFW thinking to himself that he might or might not be able to reach level 11, but it didn't matter because level 10 should already be enough for him to sweep the world, so he just came out of training.

But if he 10 years younger and could reach Lv 11 he would be more devastate than before which perhaps need GJ - YG - Wuji combo to beat him😀😀😀😀

[Ren Wo Xing]

But if he 10 years younger and could reach Lv 11 he would be more devastate than before which perhaps need GJ - YG - Wuji combo to beat him😀😀😀😀

We don't know at what age JLFW started training in this technique; it's possible he's been training in it since youth, in which case there is no way for him to magically get 10 extra years. We just don't know. JLFW always finds a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so I'm not sure about that. In this case, my interest is really in the technique, not the person. JLFW the ultimate choke-meister, as Ken put it.

Very well thoughts and analysis.

What is the chance of post-16 YG with Dugu's HIS and its techniques against DFBB?

-Six-year ocean training
-9yin defensive skills that ZBT couldn't do anything to him.
-The HIS which boosts YG's overall power and its Great++ techniques.
-Great lightness kungfu and speed demonstrations.
-Jinyong said overwhelming force overcomes speed.

It's hard to say. I don't want to turn this into a YG/character competition thread, so I won't go too deep into it, but Jinyong makes statements like that all the time - for example, in XAJH alone, he first has FQY say that if the enemy is too fast, the only way to seize the advantage is to attack the weaknesses 'before' their move is completed (how LHC beat Tian Boguang) - but against DFBB and LPZ, Jinyong then says that they were so fast that there's no way to seize the advantage and attack the weaknesses even if you can see them. But then, in LHC's fight against YBQ, it's said that by now he is so familiar with the PXJF techniques that he is able to seize the weakness and hence defeat YBQ. So it's clear that they are a lot of variables in play, and we don't know enough about DFBB besides his speed to do this sort of cross-novel comparison. DFBB has never fought against anyone with such a massive application of raw force as the HIS sword/technique combo, while YG has also never fought against anyone as fast as DFBB. In situations like this, I personally give the advantage to speed, due to an old saying from Gulong that has become quite popular - 天下武功，唯快不破. 'Of all the martial arts in the world, the only one that has no weaknesses is speed.' But that's just me.

If you insist on me giving an answer? I say DFBB falls for YG's manly charms and no fight occurs 😂

[FeilongZ]

Correct, there are 13 levels, I'll fix. Definitely a limit breaker!

@Ken and @FeilongZ On the ~1000 years thing, I actually thought about that. That is for 'ordinary' practitioners. It's said that the difficulty is exponential - mastering the 1st level takes 2 years, the 2nd level takes 4, the 3rd takes 7-8, the 5th takes 30, etc. - which means that the tenth level, which no one is able to master before Jinlun Fawang, would take hundreds of years. But, Jinlun Fawang is clearly able to master it in a few decades, and felt he had a shot at mastering the 11th level - which means that sufficient talent and compatibility with this technique can drastically shorten the amount of training time required. This is similar to Qiankun Danuoyi; it was said that experts would need 7 years to master the 1st level, while ordinary martial artists would need 14 years. And this was just the first level! But, thanks to 9YSG, Zhang Wuji was able to master all seven levels of QKDNY in literally a few hours! To me, all the evidence suggests that the same is true for Dragon-Elephant Prajna - a person with sufficient 'compatibility' to this technique would probably be able to master level 13 without literally needing a thousand years, just like how Jinlun Fawang only needed a few decades and not literal centuries to master level 10.

Wow! I have a feeling that JLGS could reach level 11 if he work hard enough with time.
The author said that JLGS didn't think he need to reach the next level after he have mastered level 10.

[FeilongZ]

We don't know at what age JLFW started training in this technique; it's possible he's been training in it since youth, in which case there is no way for him to magically get 10 extra years. We just don't know. JLFW always finds a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so I'm not sure about that. In this case, my interest is really in the technique, not the person. JLFW the ultimate choke-meister, as Ken put it.



It's hard to say. I don't want to turn this into a YG/character competition thread, so I won't go too deep into it, but Jinyong makes statements like that all the time - for example, in XAJH alone, he first has FQY say that if the enemy is too fast, the only way to seize the advantage is to attack the weaknesses 'before' their move is completed (how LHC beat Tian Boguang) - but against DFBB and LPZ, Jinyong then says that they were so fast that there's no way to seize the advantage and attack the weaknesses even if you can see them. But then, in LHC's fight against YBQ, it's said that by now he is so familiar with the PXJF techniques that he is able to seize the weakness and hence defeat YBQ. So it's clear that they are a lot of variables in play, and we don't know enough about DFBB besides his speed to do this sort of cross-novel comparison. DFBB has never fought against anyone with such a massive application of raw force as the HIS sword/technique combo, while YG has also never fought against anyone as fast as DFBB. In situations like this, I personally give the advantage to speed, due to an old saying from Gulong that has become quite popular - 天下武功，唯快不破. 'Of all the martial arts in the world, the only one that has no weaknesses is speed.' But that's just me.

If you insist on me giving an answer? I say DFBB falls for YG's manly charms and no fight occurs 😂

I or someone once sugguestes the same thing, DFBB would fall in love with the handsome YG at first sight
Oh, "What is love?"

Anyways, I think YG would overwhelm DFBB with sheer power.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I or someone once sugguestes the same thing, DFBB would fall in love with the handsome YG at first sight
Oh, "What is love?"

Anyways, I think YG would overwhelm DFBB with sheer power.

You are certainly free to think that! In turn, I think DFBB would overwhelm YG with sheer speed. LHC with his reality-breaking DG9J was barely able to block DFBB's attacks and would've quickly died without RWX/XWT. I don't think YG, with 'just' force-breaking HIS, would be able to do much better - and in addition, RWX also had tremendous power, but DFBB was able to effortlessly block his sword with a needle, which strongly suggests DFBB's power is incredible as well - but that's my last comment on this thread re YG/DFBB!

[FeilongZ]

You are certainly free to think that! In turn, I think DFBB would overwhelm YG with sheer speed. LHC with his reality-breaking DG9J was barely able to block DFBB's attacks and would've quickly died without RWX/XWT. I don't think YG, with 'just' force-breaking HIS, would be able to do much better - and in addition, RWX also had tremendous power, but DFBB was able to effortlessly block his sword with a needle, which strongly suggests DFBB's power is incredible as well - but that's my last comment on this thread re YG/DFBB!

Like @Ken Cheng once said, "There is no way this she-man would defeat XF".
Therefore, I think if Jinyong were still alive, there is no way that he would say DFBB could defeat post-16 YG equipped with Dugu qiubai's legendary sword and its ingenious techniques.

Out of respect for you and your thread that got me really excited, I will continue in the WuxiaMaster's Ultimate Rankings thread.

I apologize that I got into your or anyone's nerve because I thought this was the right thread to ask these kinds of questions.

Respectfully,
FeilongZ

[CC]

2. She had more than Wu Yazi as well, but the narrator stated WYZ had superior internal energy. Honestly - when you have been training for 70 years vs 75 years, in every other case in every Jinyong novel it basically makes no difference. In fact - the very fact that there was a difference strongly suggests that it was due to the skillset.

I think my stand is largely based on my preference that one doesnt use wuxia math of this skill > that skill thus A automatically > B. Given how TSTL gets to study at 6 what the 4 swords might not even be able to study at 40, her superiority over LQS could just be her innate talent plus longer period of training and not something all because of the skillset.

As for Dragon Elephant Prana. I just had a thought. If the creator of any other internal art just came up with high standards and added n+1/2/3 levels with the requirement of 100-200-500 years to achieve....

[CC]

In situations like this, I personally give the advantage to speed, due to an old saying from Gulong that has become quite popular - 天下武功，唯快不破.

Which GL novel did that come from?

[CancerLuna]

What do you think of categorizing Dugu's set of sword -> heavy -> wood -> no sword to be one of the limit breakers?

[PJ]

I agree with the Greats being the softcap limit and that JY's desire to force all the Greats to the same level really creates logical problems.

I think DEP is a bit overrated here. Despite JY saying that GWM doubled in power, he was still around the same level as the Greats. In effect, it's not more impressive than other Great MA. One could theoretically reach extremely high level in most Great-level arts. You also have arts like Prajna Palm that are "limitless", that too is theoretical. That's different from arts like Sunflower and Beiming where we actually see the otherworldly effects.

(any time DEP's double power comes up, I think of this post )

[CC]

(any time DEP's double power comes up, I think of this post )

Everytime the ''double the power' phrase comes up, I think of You Tan Zhi sitting on the Ancient Tomb Ice Bed after he got bitten by the Iceworm and saw the wet YJJ manual.

[ChanceEncounter]

I also tend to agree that LXBRG shouldn't be on the list as limit breakers. The only thing to suggest it might be is the doubles every level statement, which is typical narrative hype and not really something demonstrated in practice. Pre-16 years, JLGS was already able to roughly match palms with GJ. I highly doubt he would simply bowl him over as he logically should be if he was suddenly twice as strong. And if every other great manages to keep pace in strength, there's nothing that separates LXBRG from any other great level technique.

There's lots of narrative statements that wouldn't make sense if we took them entirely at face value. The 10th level was likely a significant step up, but I don't believe that the exponential scaling would hold up all the way through every level. By math, 2^10 is already 1024. I don't believe JLGS is as strong as 1024 people put together even with his best feat.

As for the theoretical maximum, we don't see anyone reaching the final level(s) of a number of arts, like the 7th level of QKDNY. IMO, it's just one of those generalized, philosophical statements that no matter how high you've climbed, you're never at the absolute summit.

If we're taking any technique that allows someone to be clearly above great level, then the HIS > wood > no sword is definitely on the list, as is probably 6MSJ as it requires a great level art (1YZ) as a prerequisite.

[CC]

, I personally give the advantage to speed, due to an old saying from Gulong that has become quite popular - 天下武功，唯快不破. 'Of all the martial arts in the world, the only one that has no weaknesses is speed.' But that's just me.

Which novel was that quote from? I never found out.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Which novel was that quote from? I never found out.

I believe it was 多情剑客无情剑 in describing 小李飞刀.

[CC]

I believe it was 多情剑客无情剑 in describing 小李飞刀.

Hmm, really dont remember that.

Anyone?

Edit: A search of baidu turned this up.

天下武功，唯快不破”最早出于古龙著武侠小说小说《小李飞刀》，书中写到：小李飞刀，例无虚发，只出一刀， 无人能挡，只因天下武功无坚不摧，唯快不破。

Rest of the results were all crap from the movie Kung Fu and netizens own fantasies and theories.

[ChanceEncounter]

Speed logically is only supreme when the difference is very significant. You have to be able to get in to deal damage, and get back out before they can retaliate (especially against superior power). Essentially you need to blitz them before they can react.

In the books, you saw this in action when LHC is significantly slower then DFBB, but DFBB was unable to get in a killing blow against LHC because he was able to position himself in a situation which would assure mutual destruction. So even though DFBB was much faster, he was unable to outright win despite his speed because he wasn't so much faster that he could avoid retaliation.

This is, of course, somewhat offset by how DFBB had much inferior weaponry (needle vs sword), and eventually without distraction, DFBB would be able to slip past LHC's defenses, but he was also so much faster than LHC that LHC could not even clearly make out his movements.

re: a hypothetical HIS YG vs DFBB, I'm not sure that DFBB is so much faster than YG that YG would be completely overwhelmed by his speed. He understands the essence of 9yin and the Ancient Tomb sect has great level martial arts based primarily on speed and lightness. I'm also reasonably convinced that YG only needs to land one blow with the HIS to effectively win the battle, as it was all it took against JLGS and QQR.

Worst case scenario, he can probably adopt the same strategy LHC did, but, because of his vastly greater internal and background in speed-based techniques, would probably not be as overwhelmed by DFBB speed.

I actually think YG w/ HIS is a poor matchup for DFBB, because he's likely fast enough that DFBB can't outright blitz him, and the difference in power out put means he has to be hyperaware of staying away from the HIS at all times.

[reydge]

Speed logically is only supreme when the difference is very significant. You have to be able to get in to deal damage, and get back out before they can retaliate (especially against superior power). Essentially you need to blitz them before they can react.

In the books, you saw this in action when LHC is significantly slower then DFBB, but DFBB was unable to get in a killing blow against LHC because he was able to position himself in a situation which would assure mutual destruction. So even though DFBB was much faster, he was unable to outright win despite his speed because he wasn't so much faster that he could avoid retaliation.

This is, of course, somewhat offset by how DFBB had much inferior weaponry (needle vs sword), and eventually without distraction, DFBB would be able to slip past LHC's defenses, but he was also so much faster than LHC that LHC could not even clearly make out his movements.

re: a hypothetical HIS YG vs DFBB, I'm not sure that DFBB is so much faster than YG that YG would be completely overwhelmed by his speed. He understands the essence of 9yin and the Ancient Tomb sect has great level martial arts based primarily on speed and lightness. I'm also reasonably convinced that YG only needs to land one blow with the HIS to effectively win the battle, as it was all it took against JLGS and QQR.

Worst case scenario, he can probably adopt the same strategy LHC did, but, because of his vastly greater internal and background in speed-based techniques, would probably not be as overwhelmed by DFBB speed.

I actually think YG w/ HIS is a poor matchup for DFBB, because he's likely fast enough that DFBB can't outright blitz him, and the difference in power out put means he has to be hyperaware of staying away from the HIS at all times.

In the term of speed
SPW is in its own league
So this is not a good compare

[ChanceEncounter]

In the term of speed
SPW is in its own league
So this is not a good compare

There's absolutely zero evidence to suggest XAJH speed is completely different from Condor Trilogy and TLBB speed.

[reydge]

There's absolutely zero evidence to suggest XAJH speed is completely different from Condor Trilogy and TLBB speed.

There's absolutely zero evidence to suggest SPW speed is completely the same as CH Trilogy and DGSD speed.
In this case you don't need to look on high level fight.You can see in first chapters of SPW how JY described low fighters fight(in chapter 1 and 2) and the scene-setting he used.
Do you have this level of scene-setting in other novel ?