Why Sunflower Manual?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

6MDS is a sword technique not a shooting laser
but
For SOF
If user wants to over come the power directly he/she can uses the qi break stance
If user wants to break its long range attack he/she can uses missile break stance
If user wants to break both of them he/she can combine qi break stance and missile break stance
For 6MDS
If user wants to over come the power directly he/she can uses the qi break stance
If user wants to break its sword attack he/she can uses sword break stance
If user wants to break both of them he/she can combine qi break stance and sword break stance
After all 9 SOD is a framework that allow the user to do every thing and and the limit and flaw is the user him/herself

Yes but DG9S nature is its own weakness. As a evolving art it requires the practitioner to encounter and survive progressively more powerful opponents. If early on in their study the practitioner encounters someone who completely outclass them then they can still be killed outright.

[Stance]

Yes but DG9S nature is its own weakness. As a evolving art it requires the practitioner to encounter and survive progressively more powerful opponents. If early on in their study the practitioner encounters someone who completely outclass them then they can still be killed outright.

DG9S looks for an opening and then tries to counter it, but by doing so, it itself had created a move, which could be countered 🤣

So to win over DG9S, you purposely have openings, so the opponent will try to counter and then you counter it 😁

[Western Eccentric]

6MDS is a sword technique not a shooting laser
but
For SOF
If user wants to over come the power directly he/she can uses the qi break stance
If user wants to break its long range attack he/she can uses missile break stance
If user wants to break both of them he/she can combine qi break stance and missile break stance
For 6MDS
If user wants to over come the power directly he/she can uses the qi break stance
If user wants to break its sword attack he/she can uses sword break stance
If user wants to break both of them he/she can combine qi break stance and sword break stance
After all 9 SOD is a framework that allow the user to do every thing and and the limit and flaw is the user him/herself

Well Yiyang Zhi and LMSJ could firing like "laser" especially in YD hand which even JLFW didn't dare to face it head on what I mean is if YD fired his Yiyang Zhi from distance did you think FQY could handle it with DG9S or even "strike back" YD since DG9S only work in close-range fight not long-range fight so how can FQY use his DG9S if he couldn't "strike" YD from afar..

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yes but DG9S nature is its own weakness. As a evolving art it requires the practitioner to encounter and survive progressively more powerful opponents. If early on in their study the practitioner encounters someone who completely outclass them then they can still be killed outright.

This isn't exactly a weakness. Anytime a practitioner encounters someone who completely outclasses them, they will be killed - in my opinion, DG9J actually allows a higher chance of survival than most other arts.

Consider - LHC was basically a total scrub-tier prior to learning DG9J, but after spending literally just one day and one night training in it, he was able to reach a level that easily surpassed Tian Boguang, who was roughly on par with Yu Canghai! Honestly, this is a rate of growth that is on par with wiener-chopping Sunflower Manual.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

This isn't exactly a weakness. Anytime a practitioner encounters someone who completely outclasses them, they will be killed - in my opinion, DG9J actually allows a higher chance of survival than most other arts.

Consider - LHC was basically a total scrub-tier prior to learning DG9J, but after spending literally just one day and one night training in it, he was able to reach a level that easily surpassed Tian Boguang, who was roughly on par with Yu Canghai! Honestly, this is a rate of growth that is on par with wiener-chopping Sunflower Manual.

I think you overrate TBG a little and we have to remember LHC's victory was coached to him by FQY who taught him exactly the moves needed to counter TBG. Remember LHC got completely owned by Cheng Buyou in their initial encounter and had to trick Feng Buping into fighting him without Qi.

[reydge]

Yes but DG9S nature is its own weakness. As a evolving art it requires the practitioner to encounter and survive progressively more powerful opponents. If early on in their study the practitioner encounters someone who completely outclass them then they can still be killed outright.

If you want to level up and progress in any thing in this world you should challenge yourself with a harder one than you current level
F.E. if want to progress in math you should solve the harder problems than your current knowledge
Let me ask you
Could GJ challenge HYS in the early story of LOCH and survive?Is this the 18DSP's fault?What about HQG?
You can clearly see that in situations like facing outclass opponent you can not blame techniques but in the situation like that,you have a better chance to survive with 9SOD so this not the 9SOD's weakness and if you think ,you can see that it is one of many brilliant properties of 9SOD

DG9S looks for an opening and then tries to counter it, but by doing so, it itself had created a move, which could be countered 🤣

So to win over DG9S, you purposely have openings, so the opponent will try to counter and then you counter it 😁

I think you have misunderstanding here
The word of counter can not say whole things.
Adaptation is better word.
9SOD adapt itself with opponent skills and moves not only counter them
And we talked about this in another topic [No move] doesn't mean nothing but that means your movements and stances don't fallow any pattern so do you think if 9SOD looks for an opening , that opening fallows any pattern and rule?
If you want to win against 9SOD in regular situation you only have 2 options
1.Your opponent doesn't fully master 9SOD and you take the advantage of this matter
2.You have the 9SOD too

Well Yiyang Zhi and LMSJ could firing like "laser" especially in YD hand which even JLFW didn't dare to face it head on what I mean is if YD fired his Yiyang Zhi from distance did you think FQY could handle it with DG9S or even "strike back" YD since DG9S only work in close-range fight not long-range fight so how can FQY use his DG9S if he couldn't "strike" YD from afar..

SOF is a shooting laser but 6MDS is not I mean how a shooting laser can retract and slice in any direction or has a attack path.
6MDS is a sword technique.
Did JLGS know 9SOD?
Who said that 9SOD only works in close range?
In 9SOD we have two stances that especially created to overcome against bare hand techniques;palm braking stance and energy(qi) breaking stance and one triple purpose stance;missile braking stance
I said in another topic if you have 9SOD you don't have to challenge opponent inner power directly but that doesn't mean you can not
So if YD shoot his SOF from distance , the 9SOD users have 7 option to overcome and defeat YD

[reydge]

I think you overrate TBG a little and we have to remember LHC's victory was coached to him by FQY who taught him exactly the moves needed to counter TBG. Remember LHC got completely owned by Cheng Buyou in their initial encounter and had to trick Feng Buping into fighting him without Qi.

Trick?
What trick?
FBP wanted to use his inner power but he couldn't.He even used his QBS that he created for ZLC, to win the fight but again he couldn't then you say LHC had to trick him to fighting without qi?Even one of the people who saw this fight said that he relying on power.

[Western Eccentric]

If you want to level up and progress in any thing in this world you should challenge yourself with a harder one than you current level
F.E. if want to progress in math you should solve the harder problems than your current knowledge
Let me ask you
Could GJ challenge HYS in the early story of LOCH and survive?Is this the 18DSP's fault?What about HQG?
You can clearly see that in situations like facing outclass opponent you can not blame techniques but in the situation like that,you have a better chance to survive with 9SOD so this not the 9SOD's weakness and if you think ,you can see that it is one of many brilliant properties of 9SOD



I think you have misunderstanding here
The word of counter can not say whole things.
Adaptation is better word.
9SOD adapt itself with opponent skills and moves not only counter them
And we talked about this in another topic [No move] doesn't mean nothing but that means your movements and stances don't fallow any pattern so do you think if 9SOD looks for an opening , that opening fallows any pattern and rule?
If you want to win against 9SOD in regular situation you only have 2 options
1.Your opponent doesn't fully master 9SOD and you take the advantage of this matter
2.You have the 9SOD too


SOF is a shooting laser but 6MDS is not I mean how a shooting laser can retract and slice in any direction or has a attack path.
6MDS is a sword technique.
Did JLGS know 9SOD?
Who said that 9SOD only works in close range?
In 9SOD we have two stances that especially created to overcome against bare hand techniques;palm braking stance and energy(qi) breaking stance and one triple purpose stance;missile braking stance
I said in another topic if you have 9SOD you don't have to challenge opponent inner power directly but that doesn't mean you can not
So if YD shoot his SOF from distance , the 9SOD users have 7 option to overcome and defeat YD

So you mean FQY better than YD it's true FQY might be could "strike back" but before that his weapon would be "crushed" by YD Yiyang Zhi except you use special weapon like HIS or Heaven Sword I think you could not avoid your weapon to be "crushed" just like MRF when he fought DY in Shaolin what I mean is YD might be couldn't "penetrate" FQY defense but he could easily "break" FQY sword and without sword FQY/DG9S was "useless" also we never see DG9S against palm/qi user we only could "speculate"..

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Trick?
What trick?
FBP wanted to use his inner power but he couldn't.He even used his QBS that he created for ZLC, to win the fight but again he couldn't then you say LHC had to trick him to fighting without qi?Even one of the people who saw this fight said that he relying on power.

Sorry what is QBS? Yet you forgot Cheng Buyou nearly fatally wounded LHC. If DG9S could suppress Qi then LHC would have never got wounded.
In theory most martial arts if sufficiently studied for long enough, then even in isolation can allow you to compete to a certain level. For example OYF went into isolation for 16 years to study toad stance and came out as still one of the five greats. DG9S very nature does not allow this. Yes in theory DG9S's potential is limitless but you have to live long enough and encounter and survive other powerful martial artist to get there.

[CC]

Sorry what is QBS? Yet you forgot Cheng Buyou nearly fatally wounded LHC. If DG9S could suppress Qi then LHC would have never got wounded.
In theory most martial arts if sufficiently studied for long enough, then even in isolation can allow you to compete to a certain level. For example OYF went into isolation for 16 years to study toad stance and came out as still one of the five greats. DG9S very nature does not allow this. Yes in theory DG9S's potential is limitless but you have to live long enough and encounter and survive other powerful martial artist to get there.

That is an interesting thought.

Some masters like Z3F or Gulong Swordnerds go into seclusion for many years and achieve great breakthroughs.

Can a DG9J swordsman achieve great breakthroughs in seclusion?

[CC]

4 not 2

1.I can see flaws and I can use ======> F.E. LHC vs FBP
2.I can see flaws but I can not use them =======> F.E. LHC vs DFBB
3.I can not see the flaws but there must be flaws ========> F.E LHC vs CX
4.There is no flaws ========> 9 SOD itself

All of your mentions will be classified as number 2 and 3 ( most of the time 3) simply they can not see (or attention) the flaws or they can not use the flaws.
You can see a great example of this matter in the fight of YTZ vs SYQ and ZWJ opinion about this fight

This is exactly what I dont like about 'flaws'.

Your 2 and 3 is basically the same to me. If I can see a 'flaw' but not use it, it is not a flaw.

As for 4.) I dont agree with any 'flawless' MA and certainly not DG9J.

If I am the Flash, all the fighters are flawed.

If I have accupoints sealed and tied in a straitjacket to the ceiling with a ballgag, the opponent can turn around, bend over and have his underpants around his ankles and be in a pretty much damn 'Flawless' defensive position.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I think you overrate TBG a little and we have to remember LHC's victory was coached to him by FQY who taught him exactly the moves needed to counter TBG. Remember LHC got completely owned by Cheng Buyou in their initial encounter and had to trick Feng Buping into fighting him without Qi.

DUDE. I'm sorry man, but I have to call you out - you are completely making stuff up here. There's going to be no point in holding a discussion if you just make stuff up.

Feng Buping was forced to use his 'ultimate technique' the Quick Blizzard Sword 狂风快剑 in his fight against Linghu Chong. This was a technique that he was planning to save against Zuo Lengchan and caused everyone to exclaim in awe regarding his qi, and he still lost to Linghu Chong. There was no 'trick' Linghu Chong played against him.

Cheng Buyou - LHC completely clowned Cheng Buyou, and he was fighting with a freaking broomstick - and he still 'won' the fight - "But all the elite fighters in the watching crowd saw clearly that Cheng Buyou had already lost. If Linghu Chong had used a real thunderbolt mace, or a spike-toothed harrow, or a crescent shaped spade, all made out of steel, Cheng Buyou would have been badly injured in the chest." LHC was only injured after he was forced to disarm both of them when Cheng Buyou cut into the broom - at which point, both of them were unarmed and LHC had no skills in palm-fighting, so of course he was injured.

Tian Boguang - We literally see Tian Boguang fight evenly against Yu Canghai for an extended period of time, and even Yu Canghai himself thought to himself that Tian Boguang's "skills were really no less than that of his own. Even if they were to fight another couple of hundred rounds, he still couldn’t assure a victory." As for LHC's defeat of Tian Boguang, he wasn't 'coached' - while FQY gave him one pointer 'mid-combat', all the rest of the time he was just teaching LHC the theory behind 'formless fighting' as well as the third stance of the DG9S - the saber-breaking stance. So no - LHC's final defeat of TBG was based purely on his own expertise gained in the third stance of the DG9S, gained over a period of 1-2 days.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

DUDE. I'm sorry man, but I have to call you out - you are completely making stuff up here. There's going to be no point in holding a discussion if you just make stuff up.

Feng Buping was forced to use his 'ultimate technique' the Quick Blizzard Sword 狂风快剑 in his fight against Linghu Chong. This was a technique that he was planning to save against Zuo Lengchan and caused everyone to exclaim in awe regarding his qi, and he still lost to Linghu Chong. There was no 'trick' Linghu Chong played against him.

Cheng Buyou - LHC completely clowned Cheng Buyou, and he was fighting with a freaking broomstick - and he still 'won' the fight - "But all the elite fighters in the watching crowd saw clearly that Cheng Buyou had already lost. If Linghu Chong had used a real thunderbolt mace, or a spike-toothed harrow, or a crescent shaped spade, all made out of steel, Cheng Buyou would have been badly injured in the chest." LHC was only injured after he was forced to disarm both of them when Cheng Buyou cut into the broom - at which point, both of them were unarmed and LHC had no skills in palm-fighting, so of course he was injured.

Tian Boguang - We literally see Tian Boguang fight evenly against Yu Canghai for an extended period of time, and even Yu Canghai himself thought to himself that Tian Boguang's "skills were really no less than that of his own. Even if they were to fight another couple of hundred rounds, he still couldn’t assure a victory." As for LHC's defeat of Tian Boguang, he wasn't 'coached' - while FQY gave him one pointer 'mid-combat', all the rest of the time he was just teaching LHC the theory behind 'formless fighting' as well as the third stance of the DG9S - the saber-breaking stance. So no - LHC's final defeat of TBG was based purely on his own expertise gained in the third stance of the DG9S, gained over a period of 1-2 days.

Thanks for the correction. PS can you recommend a good English translation of the book?

[Ren Wo Xing]

This is exactly what I dont like about 'flaws'.

Your 2 and 3 is basically the same to me. If I can see a 'flaw' but not use it, it is not a flaw.

As for 4.) I dont agree with any 'flawless' MA and certainly not DG9J.

If I am the Flash, all the fighters are flawed.

If I have accupoints sealed and tied in a straitjacket to the ceiling with a ballgag, the opponent can turn around, bend over and have his underpants around his ankles and be in a pretty much damn 'Flawless' defensive position.

Flaws is different from book-to-book, honestly. Murong Bo had a 'flawless' defensive posture but still got 1HKO'd by Sweeper Monk, for example. In the context of XAJH, it's probably best just to go with FQY's definition - so long as there is a 'set move' then a flaw still exists within it:

FQY: "When you said ‘all the moves become an integral whole, then the enemy would have no way of breaking them’ earlier, you’ve only gotten less than half right. It’s not ‘an integral whole’ but simply no moves. No matter how hard you work on making the moves an integral whole, as long as there’s a trace of the connection, your enemy would have a flaw to exploit. If you don’t have any moves at all, then how is your enemy going to break your move?"

Using this context, I would judge that the Greats have reached the cusp of this level, as Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng were both able to generate a lot of brand new 'moves' on the fly during their duel in a way akin to how LHC used DG9S to generate lots of non-standard moves.

If I had to give an explanation as to why the Greats used 'moves', it is because most of their 'moves' involved the precise application and utilization of internal energy that unleashed tremendous power. YYZ and Toad Art are clearly internal-focused arts, Divine Flicking Fingers similarly is heavily reliant on internal energy (otherwise it'd literally just be a finger-flick), while the Dragon Palms are specifically stated to be a very internal-focused type of palm-skill, as opposed to the Iron Sand Palm which was a very technique-focused palm skill.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Thanks for the correction. PS can you recommend a good English translation of the book?

There's no official translation, however, Lanny created a very wonderful translation for the first 21 chapters at https://www.lannyland.com/wanderer/wanderer.shtml. The remaining chapters were translated here at SPCNET by pokit, and while the quality isn't fully up to par with Lanny's, it's still very readable and doesn't make major mistakes.

Sorry if I got a bit testy - XAJH is my favorite book!

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

There's no official translation, however, Lanny created a very wonderful translation for the first 21 chapters at https://www.lannyland.com/wanderer/wanderer.shtml. The remaining chapters were translated here at SPCNET by pokit, and while the quality isn't fully up to par with Lanny's, it's still very readable and doesn't make major mistakes.

Sorry if I got a bit testy - XAJH is my favorite book!

No prob. I am in the UK and am dependent on the TV adaptations. They seriously under-power LHC when showing his encounter with the sword fraction.

[Ren Wo Xing]

No prob. I am in the UK and am dependent on the TV adaptations. They seriously under-power LHC when showing his encounter with the sword fraction.

Oh eww. Yeah the various adaptations of all Jinyong series have a lot of issues w/r/t canon. The most 'loyal' ones were actually the Zhang Jizhong ones - the only real 'change' he made to his 2001 XAJH adaptation was making RYY appear much earlier in the adaptation than in the book. Everything else was almost word-for-word accurate, including a lot of the Peach Valley Six Fairies gibberish.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Oh eww. Yeah the various adaptations of all Jinyong series have a lot of issues w/r/t canon. The most 'loyal' ones were actually the Zhang Jizhong ones - the only real 'change' he made to his 2001 XAJH adaptation was making RYY appear much earlier in the adaptation than in the book. Everything else was almost word-for-word accurate, including a lot of the Peach Valley Six Fairies gibberish.

Is that the one with Xu Qing/许晴 as Ren Ying Ying/任盈盈?

[pannonian]

No prob. I am in the UK and am dependent on the TV adaptations. They seriously under-power LHC when showing his encounter with the sword fraction.

I love your username BTW. How did you get into Warhammer?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I love your username BTW. How did you get into Warhammer?

I played a little at Uni and always felt Mandred was an underappreciated character.