Why Sunflower Manual?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Is that the one with Xu Qing/许晴 as Ren Ying Ying/任盈盈?

Yes, correct!

[reydge]

So you mean FQY better than YD it's true FQY might be could "strike back" but before that his weapon would be "crushed" by YD Yiyang Zhi except you use special weapon like HIS or Heaven Sword I think you could not avoid your weapon to be "crushed" just like MRF when he fought DY in Shaolin what I mean is YD might be couldn't "penetrate" FQY defense but he could easily "break" FQY sword and without sword FQY/DG9S was "useless" also we never see DG9S against palm/qi user we only could "speculate"..

Actually we saw against FS and Yue hou and he was in beginner stage
I think we had something like that in another topic and on there I said that there is no need of clash
I say that again,there is no need to clash sword with SOF.
When you say JLGS said you are using a power base fighter point of view.
C'mon the loser MRF was a total dumb and his skills were mediocre how could you compare him and his skills with FQY/LHC and their 9SOD
There is no rule that say you only need sword to execute 9SOD.
The problem is by default you apply other novels rules and conditions in SPW to explain what happened or will happened
This is a big mistake

Sorry what is QBS? Yet you forgot Cheng Buyou nearly fatally wounded LHC. If DG9S could suppress Qi then LHC would have never got wounded.
In theory most martial arts if sufficiently studied for long enough, then even in isolation can allow you to compete to a certain level. For example OYF went into isolation for 16 years to study toad stance and came out as still one of the five greats. DG9S very nature does not allow this. Yes in theory DG9S's potential is limitless but you have to live long enough and encounter and survive other powerful martial artist to get there.

Quick blizzard sword stance
And you forgot how LHC play with CB and if he had real weapon he easily died
When you say about OYF do you speak about technical improvement of technical base MA or about power improvement of power base MA?
Let me ask another thing.After GJ learned 18DSP completely did he improve technically on 18DSP or he just improve in inner power?
Is there even any technical challenge in condor heroes trilogy or all of them are some how inner power challenge?
Is there even any technical challenge in all of JY universe except SPW or all of them are some how inner power challenge?

That is an interesting thought.

Some masters like Z3F or Gulong Swordnerds go into seclusion for many years and achieve great breakthroughs.

Can a DG9J swordsman achieve great breakthroughs in seclusion?

First I am talking about JY universe not GL universe because I don't have any idea about GL universe
Second ZSF create taichies but as long as ZWJ tried them even ZSF himself didn't have any idea about if they worked or not
And ZWJ with his 9 Yang had a good foundation for Taichies but again he need to used them in the fight to fixed his knowledge

This is exactly what I dont like about 'flaws'.

Your 2 and 3 is basically the same to me. If I can see a 'flaw' but not use it, it is not a flaw.

As for 4.) I dont agree with any 'flawless' MA and certainly not DG9J.

If I am the Flash, all the fighters are flawed.

If I have accupoints sealed and tied in a straitjacket to the ceiling with a ballgag, the opponent can turn around, bend over and have his underpants around his ankles and be in a pretty much damn 'Flawless' defensive position.

No they are not the same
If you can see the flaws that not necessarily means you can use them
We talked about one of the JY main novels;SPW.In this novel with JY describes,9SOD is a flawless MA
If you are the flash do you even need flaws?because even before opponent raise his arm you can hit him
But what if your opponent become flash too?

[reydge]

Oh eww. Yeah the various adaptations of all Jinyong series have a lot of issues w/r/t canon. The most 'loyal' ones were actually the Zhang Jizhong ones - the only real 'change' he made to his 2001 XAJH adaptation was making RYY appear much earlier in the adaptation than in the book. Everything else was almost word-for-word accurate, including a lot of the Peach Valley Six Fairies gibberish.

Actually laughing in the wind has a lot of minor and major changes but yes most of the story is the same and it is really bad a*s
I think those changes make the story more suitable for TV

Is that the one with Xu Qing/许晴 as Ren Ying Ying/任盈盈?

Yup
https://www.cerita-silat.net/2020/08...-jin-yong.html
you can find SPW and other JY novels

[CC]

No they are not the same
If you can see the flaws that not necessarily means you can use them
We talked about one of the JY main novels;SPW.In this novel with JY describes,9SOD is a flawless MA
If you are the flash do you even need flaws?because even before opponent raise his arm you can hit him
But what if your opponent become flash too?

That is where we disagree.

If you cannot abuse it/break it, it is not a flaw. At any given time, any stance can never cover every single point of the body (unless you have some impenetrable all round force field). Is that a flaw?

In fact, using the English word 'Flaw' was never a very exact translation of the Chinese phrase used.

Now if 9SOD was truly flawless, LHC wouldnt be knocked out by RWX's roar or have those multiple situations in the novel where it was stated the burst of energy from the absorbed internal helped his sword move. If you counter-argue that his DG9J was not yet sufficiently trained, then I can also argue that JY in his usual hyperbole, stated the Daizhong Way as being able to compute and account for every damn tactical situation as well, just that no novel protagonist managed to perfect it to that level.

I refuse to take JY's hyperbole descriptions at face value because there were too many made in almost all the novels.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

When you say about OYF do you speak about technical improvement of technical base MA or about power improvement of power base MA?
Let me ask another thing.After GJ learned 18DSP completely did he improve technically on 18DSP or he just improve in inner power?
Is there even any technical challenge in condor heroes trilogy or all of them are some how inner power challenge?
Is there even any technical challenge in all of JY universe except SPW or all of them are some how inner power challenge?

For OYF it would seem both as during his time during isolation he not only re-learnt Toad Stance he also invented Snake Fist. HYS (eastern heretic) & YD (Southern King) did the same thing, living in almost total isolation they still improved the Martial Arts and stayed on top of the Martial Arts world.
Within LOCH H7G (Northern Beggar) stated that in the first Mount Hou tournament he had not mastered 18 Dragon Palm, otherwise he would have won. Thus we know all the surviving Greats got at least to WCY level by the beginning of LOCH, and three of them did this in isolation.

[reydge]

For OYF it would seem both as during his time during isolation he not only re-learnt Toad Stance he also invented Snake Fist. HYS (eastern heretic) & YD (Southern King) did the same thing, living in almost total isolation they still improved the Martial Arts and stayed on top of the Martial Arts world.
Within LOCH H7G (Northern Beggar) stated that in the first Mount Hou tournament he had not mastered 18 Dragon Palm, otherwise he would have won. Thus we know all the surviving Greats got at least to WCY level by the beginning of LOCH, and three of them did this in isolation.

You didn't answer my questions

That is where we disagree.

If you cannot abuse it/break it, it is not a flaw. At any given time, any stance can never cover every single point of the body (unless you have some impenetrable all round force field). Is that a flaw?

In fact, using the English word 'Flaw' was never a very exact translation of the Chinese phrase used.

Now if 9SOD was truly flawless, LHC wouldnt be knocked out by RWX's roar or have those multiple situations in the novel where it was stated the burst of energy from the absorbed internal helped his sword move. If you counter-argue that his DG9J was not yet sufficiently trained, then I can also argue that JY in his usual hyperbole, stated the Daizhong Way as being able to compute and account for every damn tactical situation as well, just that no novel protagonist managed to perfect it to that level.

I refuse to take JY's hyperbole descriptions at face value because there were too many made in almost all the novels.

First Who?
Second not necessarily
If you know about wrestling you should know that all the wrestlers have some weak points in their body and their skills and even their opponents know those but that doesn't mean they can use those weak points.
An other thing if you can use some weak point that doesn't mean I can use them too.
we talk about flaws in MA so the vice versa is true too.At any given time, any stance can never attack every single point of the body (unless you have god like speed or 1000 hands)
In the RWX case did he break 9SOD or he take the advantage of LHC's weakness?RWX saw that even in 1000 move he hadn't any chance of victory in sword fight
If you didn't have any energy how could raise your hand?In some part of the story like in fight against FS LHC's attack was delayed because he had not any energy to execute his attack completely.

[Western Eccentric]

Actually we saw against FS and Yue hou and he was in beginner stage
I think we had something like that in another topic and on there I said that there is no need of clash
I say that again,there is no need to clash sword with SOF.
When you say JLGS said you are using a power base fighter point of view.
C'mon the loser MRF was a total dumb and his skills were mediocre how could you compare him and his skills with FQY/LHC and their 9SOD
There is no rule that say you only need sword to execute 9SOD.
The problem is by default you apply other novels rules and conditions in SPW to explain what happened or will happened
This is a big mistake

....

Haha

[Ken Cheng]

Yet another reason that SPW has never been one of my favorite Jin Yong stories: its basic rules fly in the face of the entire rest of the canon.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

[QUOTE=reydge;1159868]You didn't answer my questions


Didn't understand the point of your question. My answer was to prove the difference between DG9S and other conventional arts. Conventional arts you can take to the highest level even when training in isolation as proven by the LOCH & ROCH Greats. DG9S very nature does not allow this. Which BTW you never disproved.

[Doc Kwok]

[QUOTE=Mandred Skavenslayer;1159871]

You didn't answer my questions


Didn't understand the point of your question. My answer was to prove the difference between DG9S and other conventional arts. Conventional arts you can take to the highest level even when training in isolation as proven by the LOCH & ROCH Greats. DG9S very nature does not allow this. Which BTW you never disproved.

It was never said that you needed to continuously fight to improve DG9J - FCY said that the key was in '悟' (understanding, comprehension, realisation) the art. Fighting powerful enemies was certainly one way (and probably the quickest but riskiest), but it was not the only way. You could also sit in a cave for 30 years, pondering over all the myriad possibilities during all your waking hours.

There was also the mundane training - the 'break arrow' stance required training one's hearing to listen for projectiles, as well as the ability to execute hundreds or thousands of short thrusts to individual projectiles (yeah right...). The 'break qi' stance had its own specific training method (which was never described or elaborated on). Presumably the others stances also needed training too to pull off.

[CC]

the 'break arrow' stance required training one's hearing to listen for projectiles, as well as the ability to execute hundreds or thousands of short thrusts to individual projectiles (yeah right...). .

Its worse than that. Each of the hundreds of thousands must be sent back to the attacker or it would break the logic of 'only attack no parries' in DG9J.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

[QUOTE=Doc Kwok;1159875]

It was never said that you needed to continuously fight to improve DG9J - FCY said that the key was in '悟' (understanding, comprehension, realisation) the art. Fighting powerful enemies was certainly one way (and probably the quickest but riskiest), but it was not the only way. You could also sit in a cave for 30 years, pondering over all the myriad possibilities during all your waking hours.

There was also the mundane training - the 'break arrow' stance required training one's hearing to listen for projectiles, as well as the ability to execute hundreds or thousands of short thrusts to individual projectiles (yeah right...). The 'break qi' stance had its own specific training method (which was never described or elaborated on). Presumably the others stances also needed training too to pull off.

But didn't FQY say the the essence of DG9S was based on defeated moves (as I stated before this is based on TV adaptation only)? Thus the only way to truly grasp DG9S is to face or come very close to facing defeat.

[pannonian]

There was also the mundane training - the 'break arrow' stance required training one's hearing to listen for projectiles, as well as the ability to execute hundreds or thousands of short thrusts to individual projectiles (yeah right...).

Its worse than that. Each of the hundreds of thousands must be sent back to the attacker or it would break the logic of 'only attack no parries' in DG9J.

...

Yet another reason that SPW has never been one of my favorite Jin Yong stories: its basic rules fly in the face of the entire rest of the canon.

You mean the fundamental laws of physics?

[EdenResident]

[QUOTE=Mandred Skavenslayer;1159871]

You didn't answer my questions


Didn't understand the point of your question. My answer was to prove the difference between DG9S and other conventional arts. Conventional arts you can take to the highest level even when training in isolation as proven by the LOCH & ROCH Greats. DG9S very nature does not allow this. Which BTW you never disproved.

I think this is a very valid point. Technique-based skills need actually sparring to get better. If LHC had fought Post-Bixie YBQ for the very first time without the advantage of having already fought DFBB and seen LPZ's moves, he would have been in a whole lot of trouble. But once, he's fought YBQ, he's confident that YBQ would be no threat to him anymore. The downside of this is that most of the time, you don't get to have a rematch. You're already dead.

Internal-based skills don't have this inherent weakness and internal-based users can at least train their internals in isolation. They still need sparring to get their techniques up to speed, though, like ZWJ throughout HSDS. But I agree that internal-based users have less need for sparring to progress.

[EdenResident]

Its worse than that. Each of the hundreds of thousands must be sent back to the attacker or it would break the logic of 'only attack no parries' in DG9J.

We all know the "only attack, no parries" narrative is completely bullshit, even for wuxia physics. I'm not sure if it's intended to be FQY's hyperbole or JY's hyperbole. It's still bullshit nonetheless. If DY thrust you from 3 meters with his sword qi, yeah, you try and block that.

[CC]

We all know the "only attack, no parries" narrative is completely bullshit, even for wuxia physics. I'm not sure if it's intended to be FQY's hyperbole or JY's hyperbole. It's still bullshit nonetheless. If DY thrust you from 3 meters with his sword qi, yeah, you try and block that.

Actually, that is very blockable. MRF succeeded in blocking it with his blade for quite some time before his blade broke.

...



You mean the fundamental laws of physics?

No, worse. I mean, palm winds and inner force projection is breaking the laws of physics (as we know it in 2021). But that is something which we can imagine or picture without distorting inter-spatial perception or our 3D logic. DG9J actually breaks inter-spatial perception and logic.

[Ren Wo Xing]

internal-based users have less need for sparring to progress.

Cough JLGS cough.

Sorry, that's the first thing I think of when we talk about someone with lots of internal but shitty combat abilities. ZWJ a close second.

[CC]

Cough JLGS cough.

Sorry, that's the first thing I think of when we talk about someone with lots of internal but shitty combat abilities. ZWJ a close second.

Now to be fair, lets swap their encounters.

Put ZWJ against all the opponents Goldie had to fight. How do you think it would turn out.

Put Goldie against ZWJ's opponents. Might be quite a curbstomp.

[EdenResident]

Cough JLGS cough.

Sorry, that's the first thing I think of when we talk about someone with lots of internal but shitty combat abilities. ZWJ a close second.

But you just proved my point. People with abundant internals and shitty techniques can still be at Great or very near-Great level, like Baldie and ZWJ.

Now, flip that around. People with great techniques and shitty internals like LHC, well, are still mediocre at best.

Name one Great-level fighter with great techniques and shitty internals.

[Ken Cheng]

Name one Great-level fighter with great techniques and shitty internals.

None, but wasn't East Heretic Wong Yerk See's internal power relatively unremarkable compared to those of his peers? He obviously wasn't a weakling in internal power, but we never really hear about Wong Yerk See being noted for internal power...mostly numerous esoteric techniques.