Why Sunflower Manual?

[Stance]

Yue Su and Cai Zifeng snuck into the Shaolin library and out of all the great skills, they decided to steal the sunflower manual.... Why?

I'm sure they would have skim through the first few pages and it said castration is a prerequisite and both thought, sure no problems, let's take this one.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

They probably searched for it by reputation first, then when the read what kind of power they could achieve got hooked.

Its possible that they thought they might have been able to figure a way around the castration prerequisite. What gets me is were the Hua Shan brothers killed when the 10 Sun/Moon elders attacked? If not then why did they not just wrote another copy?

[Stance]

They probably searched for it by reputation first, then when the read what kind of power they could achieve got hooked.

Its possible that they thought they might have been able to figure a way around the castration prerequisite. What gets me is were the Hua Shan brothers killed when the 10 Sun/Moon elders attacked? If not then why did they not just wrote another copy?

I think they both died in the initial attack.

[Ken Cheng]

Yue Su and Cai Zifeng snuck into the Shaolin library and out of all the great skills, they decided to steal the sunflower manual.... Why?

I'm sure they would have skim through the first few pages and it said castration is a prerequisite and both thought, sure no problems, let's take this one.

Most of the other great martial arts manuals from the past were lost by that time, or never were in Shaolin's possession.

[Trien Chieu]

Most of the other great martial arts manuals from the past were lost by that time, or never were in Shaolin's possession.

Cheung Mo Gei did not return the full version of 9-Yeung to Shaolin after HSDS? 9-Yeung is so much better than Sunflower.

[reydge]

Cheung Mo Gei did not return the full version of 9-Yeung to Shaolin after HSDS? 9-Yeung is so much better than Sunflower.

9 yang isn't related to sunflower manual
9 yang is a pure cultivation manual but sunflower is a sword technique manual that has a unique inner power part
This comparison is wrong

[Western Eccentric]

9 yang isn't related to sunflower manual
9 yang is a pure cultivation manual but sunflower is a sword technique manual that has a unique inner power part
This comparison is wrong

Nope Sunflower isn't sword manual but pure inner strength technique that's why though their prowess in swordplay increase tremendously YBQ and LPZ inner strength still relatively weak especially LPZ his internal even far below YCH..

[hyoyatika]

Great topic OP.

It's weird they didn't skim the first few pages and realize this flaw. Alternatively, they might not have the balls to check the manuals and were just keen to snuck in and out as soon as possible.

And yes, I find it weird too. Was there any legends behind the enunch who created Sunflower? The Shaolin 72 skills were there for the thieves but they chose to steal Sunflower instead.

[reydge]

Nope Sunflower isn't sword manual but pure inner strength technique that's why though their prowess in swordplay increase tremendously YBQ and LPZ inner strength still relatively weak especially LPZ his internal even far below YCH..

First when we talk about YBQ and LPZ skill we talk about third incomplete copy which name is ERSA with 72 stances and in DFBB case second incomplete copy which name is sunflower manual
but

Yu Canghai had already researched the stances of Evil Resisting Sword Art and he knew all the moves by heart and decided that there was nothing special about those stances. Suddenly, at this moment, there were so many wonderful variations in the sword art and it was also done as fast as lightning making Yu Canghai roar again and again as he got more and more desperate

Second If sunflower manual was a pure inner power manual there wasn't be qi faction or sword faction in huashan

Yue and Cai had perceived the Manual differently; one said the study of qi was more important while the other gave more importance to the study of sword. They had separately convinced the school's disciples with their own viewpoints and this later resulted in the division of Huashan School into two branches - Qi and Sword. This division caused the disciples from the two branches to fight amongst themselves within the school

[Western Eccentric]

First when we talk about YBQ and LPZ skill we talk about third incomplete copy which name is ERSA with 72 stances and in DFBB case second incomplete copy which name is sunflower manual
but

Second If sunflower manual was a pure inner power manual there wasn't be qi faction or sword faction in huashan

So you mean Huashan qi and sword "indirectly" come from Sunflower Manual but why they are so weak in both internal and sword art after the fraction..

[Ken Cheng]

Cheung Mo Gei did not return the full version of 9-Yeung to Shaolin after HSDS? 9-Yeung is so much better than Sunflower.

As far as we know, knowledge of the complete 9 Yeung Jen Ging died with Cheung Mo Gei.

[Ken Cheng]

Here are some of the elite martial arts techniques that disappeared by the time of the Ming Dynasty in Jin Yong's universe:

1. Siu Yiu Sect martial arts

2. 1 Yeung Finger Technique/6 Mak Divine Swords

3. Hong Lung 28/18 Palms

4. Peach Blossom Island martial arts

5. Ha Mo Gung

6. Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung

7. Left/Right Hand Technique

8. Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts

9. Sad Palms

10. 9 Yum Jen Ging

11. 9 Yeung Jen Ging

12. Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee

All had been consigned to history by the time the Ming Dynasty rolled around. All that was left was Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging and 72 Great Techniques, Mo Dong Sect Tai Chi arts, Ngor Mei Sect sword techniques, Mt. Hua's Purple Mist Technique, and of course, Dook Goo 9 Swords. The Beggar's Union Chief's Dog Beating Stick Technique was probably still out there because it was, after all, the signature skill of the Beggar's Union Chief, but we hear precious little about the Beggar's Union after HSDS.

[reydge]

So you mean Huashan qi and sword "indirectly" come from Sunflower Manual but why they are so weak in both internal and sword art after the fraction..

The principle of these two factions are [indirectly] come from sunflower manual
I mean they have one single huashan
but after reading sunflower separately their idea of martial art was separated but we know that they did not learn sunflower itself
each one of them try to apply the new principle on huashan martial arts and because of this huashan spilit to qi and sword
huashan MA are not weak the users are dumb but yes they are not top level MA

[Stance]

I thought the manual was made up of sword & inner power sections and the 2 brothers each memorised a section and when they put it together, it didn't connect & caused the division within huashan sect.

[Western Eccentric]

The principle of these two factions are [indirectly] come from sunflower manual
I mean they have one single huashan
but after reading sunflower separately they idea of martial art was separated but we know that they did not learn sunflower itself
each one of them try to apply the new principle on huashan martial arts and because of this huashan spilit to qi and sword
huashan MA are not weak the users are dumb but yes they are not top level MA

I see but if Sunflower was indeed have sword "part" why LYT create Bixie which seems more stronger than Sunflower sword art or he just developed Sunflower to newly skill but why he ignores internal part from Sunflower I mean why he only focus in sword part..

[reydge]

I see but if Sunflower was indeed have sword "part" why LYT create Bixie which seems more stronger than Sunflower sword art or he just developed Sunflower to newly skill but why he ignores internal part from Sunflower I mean why he only focus in sword part..

It is not true that we say ERSA seems more stronger than DFBB's sunflower because we didn't see how he was fighting with sword but we saw how he was deadly with needles and YBQ on the other hand was very weaker than DFBB in using needles
and in the eyes of LHC these two are mostly the same
LYT some how merged those parts of original sunflower that YS and CZ had memorized.He didn't create techniques and add them to sunflower
And he didn't ignored the inner power part.We can see that the first step of ERSA is castration just like DFBB's sunflower and original sunflower.The problem was that YBQ and LPZ didn't have enough time to cultivate inner power.In this case YBQ had better foundation with divine art of violet twilight but LPZ had no foundation.

[Western Eccentric]

It is not true that we say ERSA seems more stronger than DFBB's sunflower because we didn't see how he was fighting with sword but we saw how he was deadly with needles and YBQ on the other hand was very weaker than DFBB in using needles
and in the eyes of LHC these two are mostly the same
LYT some how merged those parts of original sunflower that YS and CZ had memorized.He didn't create techniques and add them to sunflower
And he didn't ignored the inner power part.We can see that the first step of ERSA is castration just like DFBB's sunflower and original sunflower.The problem was that YBQ and LPZ didn't have enough time to cultivate inner power.In this case YBQ had better foundation with divine art of violet twilight but LPZ had no foundation.

I think Bixie Manual pure "technique" without internal part at all since if the manual have internal art it would be like ZZR evil 9 Yin though he only learn it for less than 1 year like LPZ she is still have "yin" internal basis that why Wuji wrongly think ZZR 9 Yin internal base as Emei "secret" technique so logically LPZ should be have good internal after he learn Bixie Manual..

[Stance]

I think Bixie Manual pure "technique" without internal part at all since if the manual have internal art it would be like ZZR evil 9 Yin though he only learn it for less than 1 year like LPZ she is still have "yin" internal basis that why Wuji wrongly think ZZR 9 Yin internal base as Emei "secret" technique so logically LPZ should be have good internal after he learn Bixie Manual..

Could be true, since the 2 parts couldn't be merged.

I believe in the 1st edition, it was created by a husband and wife and the 2 arts couldn't be merged. JY later revised it to a eunuch creating it.

[EdenResident]

These are all we know about the Sun Flower manual:
- the original and complete version died with the Fujian Shaolin monk. No one else has the complete version.
- it must have both parts about internal (qi) and technique (sword). The technique part is not necessarily purely sword.
- it's even more probable that it WASN'T created for the sword, since eunuchs typically couldn't carry swords around. The needle would even be a more suitable for them.
- the technique part, without being powered by its qi part, is completely useless. This is very different from Dugu 9 sword. And you cannot use other qi to power its technique. It must be Sun Flower qi. No other ways.
- there was never any record about the qi part being used alone like 9Yang or Yijinjing or used with other techniques. So it's probably only compatible with its own technique.
- that makes Sun Flower the number one art, in terms of internal and technique synergy. No othe arts in JY's universe are this tightly coupled.
- DFBB's version should be more "intact" than the Pixie sword manual, because the latter went through another layer of interpretation.
- still, considering how strong DFBB was, the original Sun Flower manual must be insane. That eunuch should easily be in the 90-95 range.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

These are all we know about the Sun Flower manual:
- the original and complete version died with the Fujian Shaolin monk. No one else has the complete version.
- it must have both parts about internal (qi) and technique (sword). The technique part is not necessarily purely sword.
- it's even more probable that it WASN'T created for the sword, since eunuchs typically couldn't carry swords around. The needle would even be a more suitable for them.
- the technique part, without being powered by its qi part, is completely useless. This is very different from Dugu 9 sword. And you cannot use other qi to power its technique. It must be Sun Flower qi. No other ways.
- there was never any record about the qi part being used alone like 9Yang or Yijinjing or used with other techniques. So it's probably only compatible with its own technique.
- that makes Sun Flower the number one art, in terms of internal and technique synergy. No othe arts in JY's universe are this tightly coupled.
- DFBB's version should be more "intact" than the Pixie sword manual, because the latter went through another layer of interpretation.
- still, considering how strong DFBB was, the original Sun Flower manual must be insane. That eunuch should easily be in the 90-95 range.

Great summary: I would add that it also has an amazing speed of cultivation, achieving in a few months what would take other arts years to do.