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Thread: Why Sunflower Manual?

  1. #41
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    I concur with reydge on many points regarding QHBD and BXJF. My own interpretation is like this

    - The 2 Huashan brothers wrote down whatever they could memorize from the original version, without their own interpretation. This later became DFBB's QHBD. To me, this is the most "intact" version after the original.
    - LYT didn't even get to see the above version. He just stringed together bits and pieces from his tutelage sessions with the 2 Huashan brothers. Then he added his own interpretation and it became the 72 stances of BXJF.
    - To me LYT's version would be easier to learn than DFBB's version (think of it as the noted version of a really hard textbook). But also, because of this, it cannot be as powerful as DFBB's version. Think of it this way. DFBB gets to interpret the art through a written down book, while LYT gets to interpret it just through bits and pieces from a conversation. The most obvious demonstration of this is BXJF repeats after 72 stances while DFBB's QHBD doesn't. Till the end, LHC still hasn't figured out how to beat DFBB. DFBB's version is more "formless" than BXJF.
    - DFBB doesn't carry a sword with him. No one ever remembers him using a sword. The indication is very strong that the original version was created for a needle, which would be a more natural weapon of choice for a eunuch than a sword. QHBD (and BXJF) relies on speed and agility. If you have enough inner power to infuse the needle with the power of a sword, it will be a lot better because the needle is a lot more agile. DFBB uses the needle like the extension of his fingers.
    - In fact, DFBB's utilization of the needle as the more agile sword is very similar to another swordplay that we know: Duan Yu's 6MSJ. They both offer superiority over regular swordplays because they are more agile.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    I concur with reydge on many points regarding QHBD and BXJF. My own interpretation is like this

    - The 2 Huashan brothers wrote down whatever they could memorize from the original version, without their own interpretation. This later became DFBB's QHBD. To me, this is the most "intact" version after the original.
    - LYT didn't even get to see the above version. He just stringed together bits and pieces from his tutelage sessions with the 2 Huashan brothers. Then he added his own interpretation and it became the 72 stances of BXJF.
    - To me LYT's version would be easier to learn than DFBB's version (think of it as the noted version of a really hard textbook). But also, because of this, it cannot be as powerful as DFBB's version. Think of it this way. DFBB gets to interpret the art through a written down book, while LYT gets to interpret it just through bits and pieces from a conversation. The most obvious demonstration of this is BXJF repeats after 72 stances while DFBB's QHBD doesn't. Till the end, LHC still hasn't figured out how to beat DFBB. DFBB's version is more "formless" than BXJF.
    - DFBB doesn't carry a sword with him. No one ever remembers him using a sword. The indication is very strong that the original version was created for a needle, which would be a more natural weapon of choice for a eunuch than a sword. QHBD (and BXJF) relies on speed and agility. If you have enough inner power to infuse the needle with the power of a sword, it will be a lot better because the needle is a lot more agile. DFBB uses the needle like the extension of his fingers.
    - In fact, DFBB's utilization of the needle as the more agile sword is very similar to another swordplay that we know: Duan Yu's 6MSJ. They both offer superiority over regular swordplays because they are more agile.
    Sorry, this isn’t true. The two Huashan disciples recited the whole thing to him, and even Fang Zheng suspected that Lin Yuantu’s version was probably better than DFBB’s. As the second most skilled expert in XAJH, his opinion holds a lot of weight with me here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Quick note - it is highly likely that Lin Yuantu's version of the PXJF is superior to DFBB's copy of the Sunflower Script.

    The reason is simple - the Sunflower Script we see in the novel was 'created' in Huashan based on Lin Yuantu's "casual explanations" of the two parts that Yue Su and Cai Zifeng stole from Shaolin, whereas the Evil-Resisting Swordplay is basically Lin Yuantu's full, true personal interpretation of what Yue Su and Cai Zifeng showed him.

    In other words, while DFBB's 'Sunflower Script' inherited the name of the 'Original Sunflower Script', it's likely that the Evil-Resisting Swordplay inherited more of the essence of the 'Original Sunflower Script'.
    The Huashan brothers wrote down their copy after leaving shaolin & before meeting LYT. That copy fell into the hands of the sun moon cult.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Here's the short version:

    - the original version was created by the eunuch hundreds of years ago (before XAJH).
    - about 100+ years ago, it somehow ended up in the hands of Hongye, a Fujian Shaolin's monk. We don't know who stole it from where. We also don't know if there were any other practitioners besides the original eunuch.
    - 2 Huashan brothers tried to steal it from Shaolin but they didn't get to copy the original. Instead, they tried to memorize 2 halves separately and later tried to piece them back together. Their disagreement when piecing the halves back caused the qi/sword rift in Huashan.
    - Hongye's disciple was sent to Huashan. He ended up studying QHBD together with the Huashan brother. He later created BXJF from his own interpretation of QHBD and changed his name to Lin Yuantu. He wrote down BXJF and passed it down to his son and later on his grandson, Lin Pingzhi.
    - 10 Sun Moon elders stole the (bastardized) QHBD from the Huashan brothers. This version was passed down to RWX and then DFBB
    - Hongye, the HS brothers and 10 Sun Moon Elders all died, tying up all the loose ends.
    That's what I thought. I was momentarily confused by the earlier summary about how BXJF went through another layer of interpretation.

    I'm not sure if I would say that BXJF was another layer of interpretation as much as it was an edit of the principles that LYT and the Huashan brothers knew. It's probably fair to say that the manual left behind was more incomplete. LYT had some understanding of the original art, I believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Well I just want to say without DG9S could someone figure out DFBB or YBQ "flaws" since JY openly admit that only DG9S could beat Sunflower Manual (which still depends on the users of course)..
    He didn't say "only" DG9J could beat it. Just that he thought DG9J would win against Sunflower/BXJF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Sorry, this isn’t true. The two Huashan disciples recited the whole thing to him, and even Fang Zheng suspected that Lin Yuantu’s version was probably better than DFBB’s. As the second most skilled expert in XAJH, his opinion holds a lot of weight with me here.
    They did not recite everything to him - they only asked about the bits that they were having trouble understanding.

    ...一面深致歉意,一面卻以經中所載武學,向他請教。
    ...聽他們背誦經文,隨口解釋,心下卻暗自記憶。
    ...聽到一句經文,便以己意演繹幾句,居然也說來頭頭是道。

    ...On the one hand they profusely apologized, on the other they asked him about the martial arts contained within the manual.
    ...Listening to them recite passages from the manual, he casually answered, secretly memorizing them by heart.
    ...After listening to one passage, he would explain it in a few phrases according to his own interpretation, managing to make perfect sense.

    i.e. It was a Q&A session - they would ask about a phrase, and he would answer with his own interpretation. There was nothing about reciting the whole thing to him at all.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    That's what I thought. I was momentarily confused by the earlier summary about how BXJF went through another layer of interpretation.

    I'm not sure if I would say that BXJF was another layer of interpretation as much as it was an edit of the principles that LYT and the Huashan brothers knew. It's probably fair to say that the manual left behind was more incomplete. LYT had some understanding of the original art, I believe.
    Here is what I mean. The written down version of KHBD has many missing parts (due to the Huasan brothers' incomplete memorization). They then recite from this book during the tutelage session with LYT. Note that LYT never gets to read the book. Whatever he can recall from the book is just from his almost photographic memory. However, using his intelligence, LYT is able to fill in the missing parts with his own interpretation. That's why Fang Zheng thinks that LYT's version is more "complete" than DFBB's version.

    True. It's more complete in the sense that the missing parts are now filled in (by LYT). For a beginner or an ordinary person, learning from LYT's version would be a lot easier, because you don't need to figure out the missing parts yourself and also LYT has probably added his own notes and guidance in more layman terms. However, if you just learn from LYT's version, your ceiling will be LYT. You'll never be better than him.

    On the other hand, if you are a martial arts prodigy, it may be better that you learn from the more "intact" version (DFBB's KHBD) even though it has more missing parts. It's not unreasonable to assume that DFBB might be even smarter than LYT. In this case, DFBB is able to add his own interpretation to a more complete book (remember that LYT never gets to read this book and only gets to listen to its recitation).

    So, the combination of DFBB being smarter than LYT (assumption but could be true), and his book being more intact than the recitation of the Huashan brothers (LYT's version), takes DFBB to a higher level than LYT's understanding of the arts. DFBB is not restricted by LYT's ceiling anymore.

    There are several clues that support this theory:
    - LYT's biggest feat is beating a Qingcheng sect leader. Not very impressive. DFBB's feat is his dismantling of RWX, LHC, XWT. Much more impressive.
    - LYT's fame is big but nothing really extraordinary. DFBB calls himself invincible during an era with Great-level fighters like FZ and FQY. Was there even Great-level fighters during LYT's times?
    - DFBB's usage of the needle is probably closer to the intention of the original eunuch. The needle is also more agile than the sword, which fits more to the philosophy of KHBD/BXJF.
    - BXJF has the limitation of 72 stances, which LHC figured out. There's no such limitation of KHBD.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    They did not recite everything to him - they only asked about the bits that they were having trouble understanding.

    ...一面深致歉意,一面卻以經中所載武學,向他請教。
    ...聽他們背誦經文,隨口解釋,心下卻暗自記憶。
    ...聽到一句經文,便以己意演繹幾句,居然也說來頭頭是道。

    ...On the one hand they profusely apologized, on the other they asked him about the martial arts contained within the manual.
    ...Listening to them recite passages from the manual, he casually answered, secretly memorizing them by heart.
    ...After listening to one passage, he would explain it in a few phrases according to his own interpretation, managing to make perfect sense.

    i.e. It was a Q&A session - they would ask about a phrase, and he would answer with his own interpretation. There was nothing about reciting the whole thing to him at all.
    I think there is a difference of interpretation here. When I see “听他们背诵经文”, to me that reads as they recited the whole thing; if they were just doing bits and pieces that they had trouble with, I don’t think this phrase would be used, there are a lot of other ways to describe it than using “背诵经文”. I believe they recited the entire thing, and each time there was something they didn’t get they would ask him and he would answer. Additionally, he was there for eight full days, and Fang Zheng also believes he might have a better KHBD than the Sun Moon Sect one; all of this to me strongly implies he heard the whole thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Here is what I mean. The written down version of KHBD has many missing parts (due to the Huasan brothers' incomplete memorization). They then recite from this book during the tutelage session with LYT. Note that LYT never gets to read the book. Whatever he can recall from the book is just from his almost photographic memory. However, using his intelligence, LYT is able to fill in the missing parts with his own interpretation. That's why Fang Zheng thinks that LYT's version is more "complete" than DFBB's version.

    True. It's more complete in the sense that the missing parts are now filled in (by LYT). For a beginner or an ordinary person, learning from LYT's version would be a lot easier, because you don't need to figure out the missing parts yourself and also LYT has probably added his own notes and guidance in more layman terms. However, if you just learn from LYT's version, your ceiling will be LYT. You'll never be better than him.

    On the other hand, if you are a martial arts prodigy, it may be better that you learn from the more "intact" version (DFBB's KHBD) even though it has more missing parts. It's not unreasonable to assume that DFBB might be even smarter than LYT. In this case, DFBB is able to add his own interpretation to a more complete book (remember that LYT never gets to read this book and only gets to listen to its recitation).

    So, the combination of DFBB being smarter than LYT (assumption but could be true), and his book being more intact than the recitation of the Huashan brothers (LYT's version), takes DFBB to a higher level than LYT's understanding of the arts. DFBB is not restricted by LYT's ceiling anymore.

    There are several clues that support this theory:
    - LYT's biggest feat is beating a Qingcheng sect leader. Not very impressive. DFBB's feat is his dismantling of RWX, LHC, XWT. Much more impressive.
    - LYT's fame is big but nothing really extraordinary. DFBB calls himself invincible during an era with Great-level fighters like FZ and FQY. Was there even Great-level fighters during LYT's times?
    - DFBB's usage of the needle is probably closer to the intention of the original eunuch. The needle is also more agile than the sword, which fits more to the philosophy of KHBD/BXJF.
    - BXJF has the limitation of 72 stances, which LHC figured out. There's no such limitation of KHBD.
    A few things. First, LYT was a decent guy and not a huge show off, most likely due to his Shaolin monk roots; it was stated that Yu Canghai was much better than Evergreen, but as we see even a scrub like Lin Pingzhi was able to defeat Yu Canghai with ease. KHBD/PXJF seems to magnify existing flaws in its users - presumably, LYT just didn’t have such major hidden character flaws.

    Second, PXJF is not limited to 72 stances, that’s just a deceptive part of its name - LHC exchanged over two hundred moves with many variations with YBQ before seeing a repeated move. In addition, it was stated that all martial arts were limited in such a way, so this wasn’t an issue specific to PXJF:

    “ In this world, in whichever sword art, no matter how complicated and how many changes your swordplay had, you would eventually finish using all the sword moves. Once the sword moves were used up and you still weren't able to gain victory, then it would be unavoidable that you would have to reuse the sword moves you had used earlier in the fight. But for masters, their refined sword arts would always have eight or ten groups, and within each group there would be dozens of moves, and each move would have its variations.”
    Third, LYT wrote down what he heard as well: “ 原来林远图前辈本是和尚,因此他向阳巷老宅之中,有一佛堂,而那剑谱,又是写在袈裟上。猜想起来,他在华山 与岳肃、蔡子峰两位前辈探讨葵花宝典,一字一句,记在心里,当时他尚是禅师,到得晚上,便笔录在袈裟之上, 以免遗忘。”.

    Lastly, in raws there is no mention of missing parts or LYT “filling in missing parts”; just that the Huashan brothers each memorized half, but couldn’t get their halves to work together in a whole in a way that made sense to both of them. All LYT did was give explanations that let them merge the two parts together into a whole.

    DFBB’s attacks also had flaws in them, they were just too fast to take advantage of. It was specifically cited that LHC was only able to take advantage of YBQ’s due to the significant experience he had gained from watching KHBD users.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 10-20-21 at 02:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    I think there is a difference of interpretation here. When I see “听他们背诵经文”, to me that reads as they recited the whole thing; if they were just doing bits and pieces that they had trouble with, I don’t think this phrase would be used, there are a lot of other ways to describe it than using “背诵经文”. I believe they recited the entire thing, and each time there was something they didn’t get they would ask him and he would answer. Additionally, he was there for eight full days, and Fang Zheng also believes he might have a better KHBD than the Sun Moon Sect one; all of this to me strongly implies he heard the whole thing.
    That doesn't really tell us anything about the quantity though - it could be anything from a few phrases to the entire thing. All that really tells us is that they recited by heart rather than from a written copy. There is some evidence against it being the whole thing though:

    • 岳蔡二人只道他定然精通寶典中所載的學問... (Yue and Cai thought that he must have thoroughly understood the knowledge contained in the manual): Why bother reciting it all when they assumed that he already knew it all? It would be pointless and a waste of time.
    • 不過岳蔡二人所記的,本已不多,經過這麼一轉述,不免又打了折扣。 (But that which Yue and Cai was originally not much, after this transfer, further loss was unavoidable): This states that LYT had less material to work with than the Huashan brothers. This could be due to not hearing the whole thing and/or LYT forgetting some himself though.
    • 辟邪劍法是從葵花寶典殘本中悟出來的武功 (Bixie swordplay is a martial art gleaned from the fragmented copy of the Sunflower manual): FZ consistently referred to the copy of the manual written by the Huashan disciples as '殘本' - a tattered/incomplete/fragmentary copy of the original, and here, he explicitly says that Bixie is derived from the 'fragmentary copy of the Sunflower manual' instead of just 'from the Sunflower manual'. This means that Bixie came into being after the incomplete manual was written.

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    Oops, pressed the submit button by mistake...
    Last edited by Doc Kwok; 10-20-21 at 09:24 AM. Reason: Pressed the submit button too soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    Yue Su and Cai Zifeng snuck into the Shaolin library and out of all the great skills, they decided to steal the sunflower manual.... Why?

    I'm sure they would have skim through the first few pages and it said castration is a prerequisite and both thought, sure no problems, let's take this one.
    The reason comes down to how JY wrote XAJH originally in the first serialized edition:

    • The sunflower manual was created by a husband and wife in their prime, who later split apart. The manual was in two volumes, one by each of them.
    • The Huashan disciples memorised one volume each.
    • As they were written by different people, the martial arts in each volume differed greatly, so each brother trained in their own volume, leading to the 'qi' and 'sword' rift.
    • The Zixia manual was created by the 'qi' faction as an introductory primer for the martial arts in the Sunflower manual.
    • The demon sect (called the 朝陽神教 'face the sun cult' in this edition) invaded decades later and killed them, taking their copy of the manual.


    This version actually makes more sense as an explanation for the qi/sword rift. But I distinctly get the impression that Jinyong had not thought of the self-castration angle at this point - that came out of the blue when DFBB appeared. But that causes massive problems - why would a married couple create a martial art that involves self-castration? And since the Huashan factions trained in it, they would all have to be castrated too.

    So in the second edition, Jinyong retconned it to have the whole manual written by a eunuch, so the castration bit makes sense. To stop the entire Huashan sect from becoming self-made eunuchs, he added a patch which made the two halves dependent on each other (note that this issue was mentioned in just one sentence - it was never mentioned again, and didn't seem to be an issue for anyone who learnt BX/Sunflower) and made the invasion come 'not long after' instead of decades after. The bit about the first part being the hardest was also tacked on. The bit about the Zixia manual was removed.

    The second edition makes more sense in terms of the castration part, less so in other areas. Would founding a faction, developing rivalries, different martial arts, etc. really only take 'not long after'? And as mentioned by the OP - who on earth would pick a MA that requires you to self-castrate at the very beginning?

    It is ironic - the second edition origin story for Sunflower/Bixie is itself a cludging together of two disparate narratives from the first edition!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post

    But that causes massive problems - why would a married couple create a martial art that involves self-castration?
    The husband had an affair and the wife found out and gave him the chop and in doing so, it accidentally released a new form of energy that gave him super speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post

    And since the Huashan factions trained in it, they would all have to be castrated too.
    This is an interesting point. This means the Huashan skills that was passed down have some KHBD elements in it?
    Last edited by Stance; 10-20-21 at 04:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    It is ironic - the second edition origin story for Sunflower/Bixie is itself a cludging together of two disparate narratives from the first edition!
    Right. I feel the bits about the qi/sword rift as a result of the Sunflower manual makes no sense at all.

    The very first lines say that if you don't cut your balls off for qi training, don't even bother. How does one read that and still insist that practicing the sword moves is more important? It says right there that if you don't your qi training in order, you'll die.

    Even if you abandon qi training altogether and just practice the sword moves (ala LYT's descendants), you'll quickly find out that they are useless.

    It really makes no sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Right. I feel the bits about the qi/sword rift as a result of the Sunflower manual makes no sense at all.

    The very first lines say that if you don't cut your balls off for qi training, don't even bother. How does one read that and still insist that practicing the sword moves is more important? It says right there that if you don't your qi training in order, you'll die.

    Even if you abandon qi training altogether and just practice the sword moves (ala LYT's descendants), you'll quickly find out that they are useless.

    It really makes no sense.
    I dont have the text on hand for reference but depending on when the Qi-Sword split happened in relation to the demon sect attack, it could be that after the manual was lost, they started bickering about what the heck the manual was about. Still rather lame though.

    This is the kind of things JY should have cleaned up in his 3rd edition instead of messing around with his lame DGSD edits of DY's harem.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    The reason comes down to how JY wrote XAJH originally in the first serialized edition:

    [LIST][*]The sunflower manual was created by a husband and wife in their prime, who later split apart. The manual was in two volumes, one by each of them.

    ....

    So in the second edition, Jinyong retconned it to have the whole manual written by a eunuch, so the castration bit makes sense.
    The first edition story could make sense too, with the qi section and its castration element written by the wife. It depends how much the couple bickered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    I concur with reydge on many points regarding QHBD and BXJF. My own interpretation is like this

    - The 2 Huashan brothers wrote down whatever they could memorize from the original version, without their own interpretation. This later became DFBB's QHBD. To me, this is the most "intact" version after the original.
    - LYT didn't even get to see the above version. He just stringed together bits and pieces from his tutelage sessions with the 2 Huashan brothers. Then he added his own interpretation and it became the 72 stances of BXJF.
    - To me LYT's version would be easier to learn than DFBB's version (think of it as the noted version of a really hard textbook). But also, because of this, it cannot be as powerful as DFBB's version. Think of it this way. DFBB gets to interpret the art through a written down book, while LYT gets to interpret it just through bits and pieces from a conversation. The most obvious demonstration of this is BXJF repeats after 72 stances while DFBB's QHBD doesn't. Till the end, LHC still hasn't figured out how to beat DFBB. DFBB's version is more "formless" than BXJF.
    - DFBB doesn't carry a sword with him. No one ever remembers him using a sword. The indication is very strong that the original version was created for a needle, which would be a more natural weapon of choice for a eunuch than a sword. QHBD (and BXJF) relies on speed and agility. If you have enough inner power to infuse the needle with the power of a sword, it will be a lot better because the needle is a lot more agile. DFBB uses the needle like the extension of his fingers.
    - In fact, DFBB's utilization of the needle as the more agile sword is very similar to another swordplay that we know: Duan Yu's 6MSJ. They both offer superiority over regular swordplays because they are more agile.
    It was not because DFBB's sunflower was more formless.The problem was his speed.LHC could easily see the flaws in DFBB moves but he couldn't use them because DFBB's hyper speed covered up that flaws and hey disappear.
    That means if we take after fight against YBQ LHC and put him against DFBB again,this time DFBB has a really hard time to deal with him
    Agility is not the only factor.Factors together make a swordplay superior

    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    - BXJF has the limitation of 72 stances, which LHC figured out. There's no such limitation of KHBD.
    I think so.
    Keep in mind 72 stand that not mean 72 moves and even the pattern and direction of these two are the same

    His movements looked exactly like the moves Yue Buqun used to defeat Zuo Lengchan, even the movement path he had taken was exactly the same. Linghu Chong turned his head around to look at Yingying. They stared at each other and cried out quietly at the same time, "Dongfang Bubai!"Linghu Chong and Yingying were staring at each other and they both saw fear and dismay in each other's eyes. It was obvious Lin Pingzhi's move was the same as the martial art that Dongfang Bubai used on that day at Dark Wood Cliff
    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Right. I feel the bits about the qi/sword rift as a result of the Sunflower manual makes no sense at all.

    The very first lines say that if you don't cut your balls off for qi training, don't even bother. How does one read that and still insist that practicing the sword moves is more important? It says right there that if you don't your qi training in order, you'll die.

    Even if you abandon qi training altogether and just practice the sword moves (ala LYT's descendants), you'll quickly find out that they are useless.

    It really makes no sense.
    It is not like that.
    The split was not because factions thought that they don't need qi or sword.You can see clearly that FBP's inner power was at least something around YBQ if he was not superior
    The problem was about principle of using
    Qi faction believe that qi is driver and you should use sword to unleash inner power in fight
    Sword faction believe that sword is driver and you should use qi to power up your sword(or weapon) move in the fight
    But other than this they have another serious different.
    Although sword faction was based on Sword but that did not mean that they didn't work hard on their inner power
    In other hand the qi faction members put most of their concentrate on qi and their sword technique understanding was not really good and in both their sword practice and their fight,they only fallowed the rules and patterns
    If you think carefully you can see that Qi faction somehow is the base rule that JY use it in his other novels(technically all of them except SPW)
    ===========================
    Oh an one thing
    The huashan members didn't see the sunflower
    YS and CZ tried to apply their new idea and expend it in their sect secretly
    This was the start point
    Last edited by reydge; 10-21-21 at 05:50 AM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by reydge View Post
    It was not because DFBB's sunflower was more formless.The problem was his speed.LHC could easily see the flaws in DFBB moves but he couldn't use them because DFBB's hyper speed covered up that flaws and hey disappear.
    Frankly, I never liked this 'I can see the flaw' vs Flawless or in general the flaw or no flaw or multiple flaw in stance nonsense.

    I mean, hell I am not a professional boxer or MMA or fencer but show me any human champion boxer of MMA or swordsman and I can theoretically point out 1001 flaws like, his toe is exposed to a foot-stomp, the back of his head is open to smacking, I can gorge his eyes! The human body is exposed at 100001 pts at anytime, its ALWAYS a matter of can I kick him in the nuts/slap his wrist before he dodges/block.

    I mean, there are flaws and there are flaws.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Frankly, I never liked this 'I can see the flaw' vs Flawless or in general the flaw or no flaw or multiple flaw in stance nonsense.

    I mean, hell I am not a professional boxer or MMA or fencer but show me any human champion boxer of MMA or swordsman and I can theoretically point out 1001 flaws like, his toe is exposed to a foot-stomp, the back of his head is open to smacking, I can gorge his eyes! The human body is exposed at 100001 pts at anytime, its ALWAYS a matter of can I kick him in the nuts/slap his wrist before he dodges/block.

    I mean, there are flaws and there are flaws.
    4 not 2

    1.I can see flaws and I can use ======> F.E. LHC vs FBP
    2.I can see flaws but I can not use them =======> F.E. LHC vs DFBB
    3.I can not see the flaws but there must be flaws ========> F.E LHC vs CX
    4.There is no flaws ========> 9 SOD itself

    All of your mentions will be classified as number 2 and 3 ( most of the time 3) simply they can not see (or attention) the flaws or they can not use the flaws.
    You can see a great example of this matter in the fight of YTZ vs SYQ and ZWJ opinion about this fight

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    Quote Originally Posted by reydge View Post
    4 not 2

    1.I can see flaws and I can use ======> F.E. LHC vs FBP
    2.I can see flaws but I can not use them =======> F.E. LHC vs DFBB
    3.I can not see the flaws but there must be flaws ========> F.E LHC vs CX
    4.There is no flaws ========> 9 SOD itself

    All of your mentions will be classified as number 2 and 3 ( most of the time 3) simply they can not see (or attention) the flaws or they can not use the flaws.
    You can see a great example of this matter in the fight of YTZ vs SYQ and ZWJ opinion about this fight
    DG9S might be "flawless" but not mean "unbreakable" I think someone with LMSJ or Yiyang Zhi could "break" DG9S IMHO since they could fare strike from afar..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    DG9S might be "flawless" but not mean "unbreakable" I think someone with LMSJ or Yiyang Zhi could "break" DG9S IMHO since they could fare strike from afar..
    6MDS is a sword technique not a shooting laser
    but
    For SOF
    If user wants to over come the power directly he/she can uses the qi break stance
    If user wants to break its long range attack he/she can uses missile break stance
    If user wants to break both of them he/she can combine qi break stance and missile break stance
    For 6MDS
    If user wants to over come the power directly he/she can uses the qi break stance
    If user wants to break its sword attack he/she can uses sword break stance
    If user wants to break both of them he/she can combine qi break stance and sword break stance
    After all 9 SOD is a framework that allow the user to do every thing and and the limit and flaw is the user him/herself

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