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Thread: Sunflower Manual Capability

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    Default Sunflower Manual Capability

    Besides speed, Dongfang Bubai was also able to use only a needle to fend off attacks. It seems that sunflower manual's arts are truly unimaginable. We've never seen Qiao Feng, Guo Jing, Zhang Wuji, Shi Potian, Yang Guo or any greats using a needle to fend off sword attacks.

    Does this means in terms of power, Sunflower Manual is the strongest in Jin Yong's world?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
    Besides speed, Dongfang Bubai was also able to use only a needle to fend off attacks. It seems that sunflower manual's arts are truly unimaginable. We've never seen Qiao Feng, Guo Jing, Zhang Wuji, Shi Potian, Yang Guo or any greats using a needle to fend off sword attacks.

    Does this means in terms of power, Sunflower Manual is the strongest in Jin Yong's world?
    Did he also using needle to "fend off" Ren Woxing sword if true I would change my opinion regarding his capacity which seems now he is clearly one level ahead of Condor Greats and comparable with Xiaoyao Elders..

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    He did use a needle to block a slash from LHC, showing off his incredible inner power.

    The fact that he effortlessly dominates 2 near-Greats, one 60+ fighter and another decent fighter, as LHC readily admits, shows that he's clearly above the Trilogy Greats, XF, et al. Even if two Greats gang up on him, I'd put money on him killing at least one (but he would lose the fight at the end).

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    Based on what was shared in the novel, Dongfang Bubai is in fact JY's world number one fighter.

    Sweeper Monk may be powerful but he's too old to move as fast as Dongfang Bubai and Wuyazi would not be fast enough to grab his hand to absorb his inner energy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dongfang Guniang View Post
    Based on what was shared in the novel, Dongfang Bubai is in fact JY's world number one fighter.

    Sweeper Monk may be powerful but he's too old to move as fast as Dongfang Bubai and Wuyazi would not be fast enough to grab his hand to absorb his inner energy.
    People like Janitor Monk could launch poweful strike from afar (LDA/LDS) and who tell you that he is could not moving "fast"..

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    He did use a needle to block a slash from LHC, showing off his incredible inner power.

    The fact that he effortlessly dominates 2 near-Greats, one 60+ fighter and another decent fighter, as LHC readily admits, shows that he's clearly above the Trilogy Greats, XF, et al. Even if two Greats gang up on him, I'd put money on him killing at least one (but he would lose the fight at the end).
    I don't think he effortlessly dominated them all at once at all. LHC readily admitted that he would have no chance against him in one-on-one combat, yes. But when they attacked at once he wasn't really able to decisively beat them despite a fairly significant exchange, numerical and weapon disadvantage notwithstanding.

    If all of them were to 4v1 DFBB, it would probably be a very prolonged fight that likely could have gone either way, though I think DFBB is slightly favored. RYY resorted to trickery because she was worried for the lives of the people she cared about most, not because she felt there was no chance the four of them could win the fight, even together. It actually seems to suggest that 4v1, they were fairly evenly matched.

    Now I think it's reasonable to argue that YG/GJ/ZWJ/XF/XYS/etc couldn't stalemate LHC, RWX, XWT, and RYY 4v1 and thus DFBB should be ranked above them. But if the objective is simply to stalemate the 4 of them, I think you could make a credible argument it's possible for some of them to do it, especially when you consider that GJ and ZWJ in particular have very good Xv1 showings/abilities.

    The most impressive thing, in my opinion, is that DFBB's Sunflower manual was incomplete/imperfect, so the theoretical limit of someone who mastered the skill should be even higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dongfang Guniang View Post
    Based on what was shared in the novel, Dongfang Bubai is in fact JY's world number one fighter.

    Sweeper Monk may be powerful but he's too old to move as fast as Dongfang Bubai and Wuyazi would not be fast enough to grab his hand to absorb his inner energy.
    Well JY did say that DG9J should win against Sunflower/BXJF, so there's at least one character in the JY world that's decisively above him.

    Other than that, I think the edge in Sweeper Monk's internal is far too large to overcome with just speed (not that Sweeper monk was slow either, when he grabbed XYS/MRB and ran off, XF could not keep up with him, even feeling like his qinggong was like magic).

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    Sunflower Manual is powerful but definitely not the most powerful in JY universe, as the user above me stated, Jinyong himself said DG9J should defeat it.

    But yea the Manual doesn't seem to be just about sword techniques, it seems to also include some very special internal energy cultivation/usage, which may be why DFBB could do the incredible things he did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdlogistics View Post
    Sunflower Manual is powerful but definitely not the most powerful in JY universe, as the user above me stated, Jinyong himself said DG9J should defeat it.

    But yea the Manual doesn't seem to be just about sword techniques, it seems to also include some very special internal energy cultivation/usage, which may be why DFBB could do the incredible things he did.
    So you mean Feng Qingyang should be better than Dongfang Bubai right..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    I don't think he effortlessly dominated them all at once at all. LHC readily admitted that he would have no chance against him in one-on-one combat, yes. But when they attacked at once he wasn't really able to decisively beat them despite a fairly significant exchange, numerical and weapon disadvantage notwithstanding.

    If all of them were to 4v1 DFBB, it would probably be a very prolonged fight that likely could have gone either way, though I think DFBB is slightly favored. RYY resorted to trickery because she was worried for the lives of the people she cared about most, not because she felt there was no chance the four of them could win the fight, even together. It actually seems to suggest that 4v1, they were fairly evenly matched.
    To me it seemed effortlessly.

    From the text ch31:

    The four of them had Dongfang Bubai surrounded and were attacking him all at once, and yet they hadn’t even touched him yet, while all of them had already been pierced by his needles. Yingying, who was watching on the side, became increasingly worried, she thought, “I wonder if those needles are coated in poison, if they are then we’d be in deep trouble!”

    Dongfang Bubai’s movements became faster and faster, his body spun around in a pink blur all over the room. Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian, and Linghu Chong were all panting and shouting in frustration and anger. All three of their weapons were infused with their internal energy, winds of force rocked through the room. Yet not even a peep escaped from Dongfang Bubai.

    Yingying thought to herself, “If I throw myself into the battle, I’d only hinder their efforts and get in the way, what good would that bring? It appears that Dongfang Bubai still has the upper hand even though it’s a three-on-one.”
    .
    .
    .
    Ren Woxing hesitated for a second, and then replied, “You’re right, your martial arts is definitely at a higher level than mine, that I truly admire.”

    Dongfang Bubai went on, “Linghu Chong, your swordsmanship is incredible, but if we fought one-on-one, you wouldn’t be my match either.”

    Linghu Chong acknowledged, “That is true, in fact the four of us combined wouldn’t be able to overcome you. It was only because of your attachment to that person surnamed Yang, that we were able to break your concentration and injure you. Your martial arts are at an unimaginable level, there is no one worthy of the title, ‘Number One Fighter under the Heavens’ other than you. In that sense, I truly have the utmost respect for you.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    So you mean Feng Qingyang should be better than Dongfang Bubai right..
    In ch31, LHC said this after fighting DFBB, which means to LHC DFBB is above all including FQY.

    "Your martial arts are at an unimaginable level, there is no one worthy of the title, ‘Number One Fighter under the Heavens’ other than you. In that sense, I truly have the utmost respect for you.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    In ch31, LHC said this after fighting DFBB, which means to LHC DFBB is above all including FQY.

    "Your martial arts are at an unimaginable level, there is no one worthy of the title, ‘Number One Fighter under the Heavens’ other than you. In that sense, I truly have the utmost respect for you.”
    That's why i never buy the consept about DG9S > Sunflower/Bixie unless Dugu Qiubai use it by himself..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    So you mean Feng Qingyang should be better than Dongfang Bubai right..
    No, I mean DG9S beats Sunflower Manual as a MARTIAL ART. This does not mean FQY could or could not beat DFBB in a fight.
    Last edited by Jdlogistics; 10-23-22 at 06:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    That's why i never buy the consept about DG9S > Sunflower/Bixie unless Dugu Qiubai use it by himself..
    DG9S > Sunflower/Bixie as a martial art, because Jinyong himself said it in an interview. However this doesn't mean that an individual DG9S user can automatically beat any Sunflower/Bixie user.

    It just means that DG9S is the superior martial art.
    Last edited by Jdlogistics; 10-23-22 at 07:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdlogistics View Post
    DG9S > Sunflower/Bixie as a martial art, Jinyong himself said it in an interview. However this doesn't mean that a DG9S user can automatically beat any Sunflower/Bixie user.
    Agree, HL18Z in the hands of XF was alot different to in the hands of YLQ

    it's a pity we never got to see DGKB in action and we don't even know if FQY version was missing anything, where did he get it from? He didn't seem to have the internal training?

    In ch10

    "When senior master Dugu took on the entire Martial World with this set of Dugu Nine Swords many years ago, he couldn’t even find a single person that could defeat him, that was all because he had reached the acme of perfection with the set of sword techniques. The same sword technique from the same Huashan style sword art could have very different effect and power. It’s the same with the Dugu Nine Swords. Even though you have learned the sword techniques, if you can’t perfect your skills, you would still be no match for first-class elite fighters in today’s world."
    Last edited by Stance; 10-23-22 at 07:06 PM.

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    Fung Ching Yeung doesn't strike me as anything near Dook Goo Kau Bai's level; to me, he's more LOCH Greats level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdlogistics View Post
    DG9S > Sunflower/Bixie as a martial art, because Jinyong himself said it in an interview. However this doesn't mean that an individual DG9S user can automatically beat any Sunflower/Bixie user.

    It just means that DG9S is the superior martial art.
    Well we all know Feng Qingyang profiency in DG9S much better than Linghu Chong since Linghu Chong lack the qi/palm breaking stance yet he couldn't beat Dongfang Bubai with his "corrupt version" of Sunflower which mean if Dongfang Bubai learn the "real" Sunflower Manual he would be way better than everyone in JY cannon save only Janitor Monk and Dugu Qiubai and maybe Xuzhu in the other word DG9S only better than Sunflower if Dugu Qiubai use that art by himself..

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    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    To me it seemed effortlessly.


    From the text ch31:


    The four of them had Dongfang Bubai surrounded and were attacking him all at once, and yet they hadn’t even touched him yet, while all of them had already been pierced by his needles. Yingying, who was watching on the side, became increasingly worried, she thought, “I wonder if those needles are coated in poison, if they are then we’d be in deep trouble!”


    Dongfang Bubai’s movements became faster and faster, his body spun around in a pink blur all over the room. Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian, and Linghu Chong were all panting and shouting in frustration and anger. All three of their weapons were infused with their internal energy, winds of force rocked through the room. Yet not even a peep escaped from Dongfang Bubai.


    Yingying thought to herself, “If I throw myself into the battle, I’d only hinder their efforts and get in the way, what good would that bring? It appears that Dongfang Bubai still has the upper hand even though it’s a three-on-one.”
    .
    .
    .
    Ren Woxing hesitated for a second, and then replied, “You’re right, your martial arts is definitely at a higher level than mine, that I truly admire.”


    Dongfang Bubai went on, “Linghu Chong, your swordsmanship is incredible, but if we fought one-on-one, you wouldn’t be my match either.”


    Linghu Chong acknowledged, “That is true, in fact the four of us combined wouldn’t be able to overcome you. It was only because of your attachment to that person surnamed Yang, that we were able to break your concentration and injure you. Your martial arts are at an unimaginable level, there is no one worthy of the title, ‘Number One Fighter under the Heavens’ other than you. In that sense, I truly have the utmost respect for you.”

    His skill was clearly at a much higher level than them individually. That much was never debated.


    The issue is that when attacking him collectively 3v1, he was not able to defeat them. The effort he apparently exerted is not really the issue here. He admits later he was trying his best and his opponents were formidable.


    杨莲亭怒道:“你往日自夸武功盖世,为甚么杀不了这几个奸贼?”
    东方不败道:“我已……我……”
    杨莲亭怒道:“你甚么?”
    东方不败道:“我已尽力而为,他们……武功都强得很。”


    DFBB says here he tried his best but weren't able to kill any of LHC, RWX, and XWT in the 3v1 melee because their skills were too high. In other words, his effortlessness is likely an aesthetic style of his, not purely a matter of his exertion, since he admits he tried his best.


    Now, certainly there is an element that says he likely would have fared better had he a real weapon instead of a needle. But with great-level fighters in other novels, we see a relatively small swing in their performance with or without the existence of a weapon. YG, for instance, was not written as overpowered by JLGS because he was fighting with 1 arm vs JLGS wheels, even though barehanded JLGS is on par with ZBT and likely slightly better than YD. XF rarely used a weapon and was able to defeat plenty of weaponed foes, even those on par with LHC/XWT/RWX. The advantage exists, of course, but is not large enough for fighters of a certain level that it completely changes everything.


    XAJH is different, of course, in that it seems to focus much more on external forms than most of JY's other novels, including some of the rare cases where inferior internal wins through much better technique (though I would argue XLN being able to defeat JLGS + Mongol elites all at once is a great example of the principle). But crucially, XAJH lacks characters with Great level internal. In the same interview where JY reveals that DG9J should beat Sunflower/BXJF, he also says that YG's internal is much better than LHC's, despite LHC's swordsmanship technique being much better than YG's. And presumably he's talking about LHC at the end of the novel, where his internal was actually quite good relative to his contemporaries.


    Now the question becomes is possible for XF, XYS, GJ, etc to hold off and even gain the apparent upper hand against LHC/XWT/RWX in a 3v1. I would say, at the very least, it should be a debate. Given some of their feats, it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility.


    All this is to say that I think his current rating on this site is fairly accurate. He's probably more impressive than the high-end Greats (XF, YG, XYS, MRB, GJ), but it's not such a vast difference that you can't imagine a similar performance from them. A difference of 5 points is probably the I'm comfortable with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    His skill was clearly at a much higher level than them individually. That much was never debated.


    The issue is that when attacking him collectively 3v1, he was not able to defeat them. The effort he apparently exerted is not really the issue here. He admits later he was trying his best and his opponents were formidable.


    杨莲亭怒道:“你往日自夸武功盖世,为甚么杀不了这几个奸贼?”
    东方不败道:“我已……我……”
    杨莲亭怒道:“你甚么?”
    东方不败道:“我已尽力而为,他们……武功都强得很。”


    DFBB says here he tried his best but weren't able to kill any of LHC, RWX, and XWT in the 3v1 melee because their skills were too high. In other words, his effortlessness is likely an aesthetic style of his, not purely a matter of his exertion, since he admits he tried his best.


    Now, certainly there is an element that says he likely would have fared better had he a real weapon instead of a needle. But with great-level fighters in other novels, we see a relatively small swing in their performance with or without the existence of a weapon. YG, for instance, was not written as overpowered by JLGS because he was fighting with 1 arm vs JLGS wheels, even though barehanded JLGS is on par with ZBT and likely slightly better than YD. XF rarely used a weapon and was able to defeat plenty of weaponed foes, even those on par with LHC/XWT/RWX. The advantage exists, of course, but is not large enough for fighters of a certain level that it completely changes everything.


    XAJH is different, of course, in that it seems to focus much more on external forms than most of JY's other novels, including some of the rare cases where inferior internal wins through much better technique (though I would argue XLN being able to defeat JLGS + Mongol elites all at once is a great example of the principle). But crucially, XAJH lacks characters with Great level internal. In the same interview where JY reveals that DG9J should beat Sunflower/BXJF, he also says that YG's internal is much better than LHC's, despite LHC's swordsmanship technique being much better than YG's. And presumably he's talking about LHC at the end of the novel, where his internal was actually quite good relative to his contemporaries.


    Now the question becomes is possible for XF, XYS, GJ, etc to hold off and even gain the apparent upper hand against LHC/XWT/RWX in a 3v1. I would say, at the very least, it should be a debate. Given some of their feats, it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility.


    All this is to say that I think his current rating on this site is fairly accurate. He's probably more impressive than the high-end Greats (XF, YG, XYS, MRB, GJ), but it's not such a vast difference that you can't imagine a similar performance from them. A difference of 5 points is probably the I'm comfortable with.
    Totally agree Dongfang Bubai indeed extremely powerful but I don't think he is much better than Guo Jing or Yang Guo..

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    Now the question becomes is possible for XF, XYS, GJ, etc to hold off and even gain the apparent upper hand against LHC/XWT/RWX in a 3v1. I would say, at the very least, it should be a debate. Given some of their feats, it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility.
    Sorry, the answer is a definitive no. XF lost to MRF and YTZ, both inferior fighters to LHC and RWX, let alone LHC+RWX+XWT.

    DFBB is clearly above any Trilogy Greats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Sorry, the answer is a definitive no. XF lost to MRF and YTZ, both inferior fighters to LHC and RWX, let alone LHC+RWX+XWT.

    DFBB is clearly above any Trilogy Greats.
    I don't think Kiu Fung lost that fight. He had a clear advantage when he fought either Mo Yung F'uk or Yau Tan Tze individually; he was able to stalemate the two of them together. It only turned against him when Ding Chun Chou briefly joined the fray too.

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