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Thread: Was Golden Wheel Monk a lone man? If not, where were his family/relatives in ROCH?

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    Default Was Golden Wheel Monk a lone man? If not, where were his family/relatives in ROCH?

    Was Golden Wheel Monk a lone man? If not, where were his family and relatives in ROCH? Was he a Mongolian? If so, what was he doing during LOCH? Was he related to Jebe? He was very proud of his martial art. Why did he not challenge Kwok Jing in a one-to-one match?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Monks live in isolation (except with other monks). Presumably, he belonged to some important Tibetan Lama Buddhist monastery where he presided as the leader. We just never got to meet his sect brothers.

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    In earlier editions of ROCH, the Golden Wheel Monk was an ethnic Tibetan and presumably had become a monk at a very young age.

    In the most recent edition of ROCH, Jin Yong changed the Golden Wheel Monk's ethnicity to Mongolian (because he realized he already had too many Tibetan Lama Buddhist monks in villainous roles and it had gotten beyond monotonous if not outright slanderous). The latest iteration of the Golden Wheel Monk's origin is that he was born in Mongolia, but left Mongolia for Tibet to become a Lama Buddhist monk perhaps shortly before or around the time that Gwok Jing was born. Hence, he was unknown during the time of LOCH because he was at a monastery in Tibet studying Lama Buddhism and martial arts. He returned to Mongolia at some point between the end of LOCH and the beginning of ROCH and began making a name for himself in the Mongol Empire, resulting in Ogodei Khan proclaiming him Imperial Grandmaster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    In earlier editions of ROCH, the Golden Wheel Monk was an ethnic Tibetan and presumably had become a monk at a very young age.

    In the most recent edition of ROCH, Jin Yong changed the Golden Wheel Monk's ethnicity to Mongolian (because he realized he already had too many villainous Tibetan Lama Buddhist monks in villainous roles and it had gotten beyond monotonous if not outright slanderous). The latest iteration of the Golden Wheel Monk's origin is that he was born in Mongolia, but left Mongolia for Tibet to become a Lama Buddhist monk perhaps shortly before or around the time that Gwok Jing was born. Hence, he was unknown during the time of LOCH because he was at a monastery in Tibet studying Lama Buddhism and martial arts. He returned to Mongolia at some point between the end of LOCH and the beginning of ROCH and began making a name for himself in the Mongol Empire, resulting in Ogodei Khan proclaiming him Imperial Grandmaster.
    Well I wonder did Tibetan Lamaism allowed non-Tibetan people to become "Lama" even as a Grand Lama/Dharma King/Fawang..

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    ...and as for fighting Gwok Jing. Ogodei's orders to the Golden Wheel Monk were to collect data on Chinese wulin, identify potential threats, and eliminate them if possible. How the Golden Wheel Monk accomplished these objectives was up to the monk himself, but a direct confrontation against Gwok Jing would only be a consideration if the monk felt he had decent odds of winning (he didn't).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Well I wonder did Tibetan Lamaism allowed non-Tibetan people to become "Lama" even as a Grand Lama/Dharma King/Fawang..
    Lama Buddhism was the major form of Buddhism for the Mongol, so it is possible that GWM could have gained access to the Tibetan monasteries through that connection.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Why did he not challenge Kwok Jing in a one-to-one match?
    Same reason Wang Chongyang did not challenge Ouyang Feng. Not worth the risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    Same reason Wang Chongyang did not challenge Ouyang Feng. Not worth the risk.
    I like Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung's chances against West Poison Au Yeung Fung much better than I like the Golden Wheel Monk's chances against Gwok Jing. I think Wong Chung Yeung (in good health) has an 80% or better chance of defeating Au Yeung Fung one-on-one, whereas I think the Golden Wheel Monk has no better than a 50% chance of defeating Gwok Jing (and that's being generous to the monk).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I like Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung's chances against West Poison Au Yeung Fung much better than I like the Golden Wheel Monk's chances against Gwok Jing. I think Wong Chung Yeung (in good health) has an 80% or better chance of defeating Au Yeung Fung one-on-one, whereas I think the Golden Wheel Monk has no better than a 50% chance of defeating Gwok Jing (and that's being generous to the monk).
    In a straight up fight yes, but I think even WCY would be weary of taking OYF on his home turf with his snakes and poisons to hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    In a straight up fight yes, but I think even WCY would be weary of taking OYF on his home turf with his snakes and poisons to hand.
    Wong Chung Yeung is unlikely to go on the offensive and seek out Au Yeung Fung for a fight at Mt. White Camel, but Au Yeung Fung might come to him if baited (almost what happened when Au Yeung Fung went to Mt. Chung Nam to steal the 9 Yum Jen Ging), but Wong Chung Yeung was moribund at the time and though he managed to injure Au Yeung Fung, the victory came at the cost of Wong Chung Yeung's life. Might be too sneaky to be in character for Wong Chung Yeung if Wong is actually in good health, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I like Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung's chances against West Poison Au Yeung Fung much better than I like the Golden Wheel Monk's chances against Gwok Jing. I think Wong Chung Yeung (in good health) has an 80% or better chance of defeating Au Yeung Fung one-on-one, whereas I think the Golden Wheel Monk has no better than a 50% chance of defeating Gwok Jing (and that's being generous to the monk).
    If Gwok Jing is healthy and in a one-to-one fair fight, GWM has almost no chance of winning. Since he is single, he should be retired in Tibet to practice Buddhism. Why in the world would he want to waste his life against Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor who are NOT his enemies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    If Gwok Jing is healthy and in a one-to-one fair fight, GWM has almost no chance of winning. Since he is single, he should be retired in Tibet to practice Buddhism. Why in the world would he want to waste his life against Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor who are NOT his enemies?
    I think he's a warrior monk who is more devoted to becoming the best martial artist than to his religious devotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    I think he's a warrior monk who is more devoted to becoming the best martial artist than to his religious devotion.
    If that is the case then he should be like Auyeung Fung instead of working for Mongke and Kublai.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    If that is the case then he should be like Auyeung Fung instead of working for Mongke and Kublai.
    Shaolin Monks are devoted to their religion but that does not stop them serving their country. Golden Wheel Monk was Mongolian so he loyally served the Mongol Empire.

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    The Golden Wheel Monk certainly wore many different hats for the Mongol Empire. He was first and foremost its spiritual leader, kind of like how the Pope is the head of the Catholic Church, but he was also its chief martial artist and represented the Empire on the wulin side of things.

    And getting back to the matter of family/relatives, Tibetan Lama Buddhist monks, unlike the Zen Buddhist monks of the Central Plains, did not necessarily need to observe the abstinence rules against meat and alcohol consumption, sex, and family. In the Central Plains, where the weather was temperate and food was generally abundant, the consumption of meat and alcohol could be considered forego-able luxuries. Moreover, the Central Plains were teeming with people, so bearing offspring was also viewed as something of a luxury. Out in Tibet and Mongolia, however, life was far more harsh. The climate and terrain yielded very little in terms of plant-based food sources, so meat consumption needed to be allowed. In that often very cold environment, alcohol was also not a mere indulgence, but necessary for survival. Finally, the population of the Mongolian steppes and the Tibetan peaks was far more sparse than that of the Central Plains, so not contributing to the gene pool would have been much more problematic.

    That said, we saw no evidence that the Golden Wheel Monk had any living biological relatives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Well I wonder did Tibetan Lamaism allowed non-Tibetan people to become "Lama" even as a Grand Lama/Dharma King/Fawang..
    Maybe that's the reason that Jin Yong changed the character's title from "Gum Lun Fat Wong" to "Gum Lun Gwok See" when the character's ethnicity changed from Tibetan to Mongolian.

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    How much of it was for patriotism and how much for personal glory? Didn't he stop trying and committed suicide when he realized he couldn't beat Yang Guo at the end?

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    How much of it was for patriotism and how much for personal glory? Didn't he stop trying and committed suicide when he realized he couldn't beat Yang Guo at the end?
    No. He died saving Gwok Seung from the burning, collapsing tower. Was crushed under the burning tower. He was already gravely wounded by Yeung Gor and Chow Bak Tung before that, however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    No. He died saving Gwok Seung from the burning, collapsing tower. Was crushed under the burning tower. He was already gravely wounded by Yeung Gor and Chow Bak Tung before that, however.
    How did GWM wounded by Zhou Bu Tong. I only watched the tv adaptation, not reading the novel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St3v3 View Post
    How did GWM wounded by Zhou Bu Tong. I only watched the tv adaptation, not reading the novel.
    In the early edition after Jinlun fall from the tower and fatally injury he is hugging by Zhou Botong which use Huang Yaoshi's body armor..

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