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Thread: 9 Yin manual was created to counter Persian's Qiankun Danuoyi?

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    Default 9 Yin manual was created to counter Persian's Qiankun Danuoyi?

    I read somewhere the author of the 9 Yin Manuals was Huang Shang. He had a beef with the Ming Cult and created 9 Yin to counter the Persian martial arts, including their top martial arts style, Qiankun Danuoyi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    I read somewhere the author of the 9 Yin Manuals was Huang Shang. He had a beef with the Ming Cult and created 9 Yin to counter the Persian martial arts, including their top martial arts style, Qiankun Danuoyi?
    The problem of this theory is no one ever fully mastered Qian Kun Shift except Wuji which mean you can only counter 6th level at best..

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    I read somewhere the author of the 9 Yin Manuals was Huang Shang. He had a beef with the Ming Cult and created 9 Yin to counter the Persian martial arts, including their top martial arts style, Qiankun Danuoyi?
    Essentially, yes. The creator of the 9 Yum Jen Ging, Wong Seung, fought a number of the Ming Cult's associates (e.g. mainstream wulin people who had family and friends who were Ming Cult members and brought a variety of martial arts into the fight). Wong Seung did reasonably well against many of them, but ultimately, met defeat in the face of overwhelming odds (just too many martial arts experts to defeat). After suffering that defeat, Wong Seung compiled the 9 Yum Jen Ging to counter the assortment of martial arts that his enemies used. I actually think Wong Seung started compiling the information that would become the 9 Yum Jen Ging even *before* he got into any altercation with the Ming Cult and its associates and his defeat at their hands motivated him to dedicate himself in an all-out, forty-year effort and assembling all his data into a cohesive system.

    While I don't know if Wong Seung ever directly fought a Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee user (it wouldn't be outrageous that he did, given that the Sung king ordered him to attack Gwong Ming Peak), but 9 Yum Jen Ging is well-suited to countering it. The main weakness of Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee is that it doesn't work against opponents with higher inner power, and 9 Yum Jen Ging was among the best inner power builders ever devised (not necessarily better than 9 Yeung Jen Ging, Yik Gun Ging, Qwai Fa Bo Deen, or Bak Ming Sun Gung, but still among the best).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Essentially, yes. The creator of the 9 Yum Jen Ging, Wong Seung, fought a number of the Ming Cult's associates (e.g. mainstream wulin people who had family and friends who were Ming Cult members and brought a variety of martial arts into the fight). Wong Seung did reasonably well against many of them, but ultimately, met defeat in the face of overwhelming odds (just too many martial arts experts to defeat). After suffering that defeat, Wong Seung compiled the 9 Yum Jen Ging to counter the assortment of martial arts that his enemies used. I actually think Wong Seung started compiling the information that would become the 9 Yum Jen Ging even *before* he got into any altercation with the Ming Cult and its associates and his defeat at their hands motivated him to dedicate himself in an all-out, forty-year effort and assembling all his data into a cohesive system.

    While I don't know if Wong Seung ever directly fought a Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee user (it wouldn't be outrageous that he did, given that the Sung king ordered him to attack Gwong Ming Peak), but 9 Yum Jen Ging is well-suited to countering it. The main weakness of Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee is that it doesn't work against opponents with higher inner power, and 9 Yum Jen Ging was among the best inner power builders ever devised (not necessarily better than 9 Yeung Jen Ging, Yik Gun Ging, Qwai Fa Bo Deen, or Bak Ming Sun Gung, but still among the best).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiuyin_Zhenjing

    This is what is written in Wikipedia

    9 yin manuals has not yet proven battled against Ming Cult because all his enemies already died 40 years later

    The manual is a compilation of numerous scrolls and ancient scriptures pertaining to psychic powers, healing techniques, martial arts classics and Taoist philosophy. It was compiled by Huang Shang (黃裳) on the commission of Emperor Huizong during the Song Dynasty. Huang's compendium became the first volume of the manual. During the writing process, Huang enriched himself with Taoist knowledge and the principles of inner energy and qi. When combined with Huang's intelligence, the knowledge he acquired during the compilation turned him into a formidable martial artist.

    Soon after, the emperor appointed Huang to lead an army to eradicate the Ming Cult, a martial arts school of Persian origin that had been involved in many anti-government activities. The Song army engaged the cult in a fierce battle but failed to capture the enemy's fortress. Huang fought with the cult's best fighters one-on-one and slew every single one of them until he was forced to retreat due to exhaustion. In retaliation, the Ming Cult dispatched the best of its surviving warriors to kill Huang's family.

    Huang was enraged and he vowed to destroy the cult. For the next four decades, Huang dedicated himself to experimenting with new techniques to counter those of the Ming Cult's martial arts. As many of the cult's members were affiliated to other schools, Huang had to develop new techniques that were capable of countering the other schools' martial arts as well.

    Huang succeeded in accomplishing his herculean task but his enemies had died during those four decades. Huang wrote the second volume of the manual, detailing his experiences and the new techniques he had developed and innovated during his 40 years of research.[1] Earlier edition of The Legend of the Condor Heroes has the creator being Bodhidharma.

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    Why would Huang Shang go into retreat to invent counter-Ming Cult arts, when he was already way above the level of their best fighters? Why couldn't he just go after those surviving warriors, whose skills are surely even below those of the ones Huang already killed, and kill them one by one?

    Did he mean to invent something that can deal with a mass of decent (but not elite) fighters, ala XF at Juxian Manor?

    Something doesn't make sense. We know that Chinese Ming Cult didn't have any elite fighters, considering that Yang Dingtian achieved the highest level of QKDNY in their history (pre-ZWJ) and even YDT was at best a LOCH Great. Why would HS spend 40 years in recluse to invent something to beat essentially scrubs? (remember that Ming Cult's best fighters already died at his hand)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Why would Huang Shang go into retreat to invent counter-Ming Cult arts, when he was already way above the level of their best fighters? Why couldn't he just go after those surviving warriors, whose skills are surely even below those of the ones Huang already killed, and kill them one by one?

    Did he mean to invent something that can deal with a mass of decent (but not elite) fighters, ala XF at Juxian Manor?

    Something doesn't make sense. We know that Chinese Ming Cult didn't have any elite fighters, considering that Yang Dingtian achieved the highest level of QKDNY in their history (pre-ZWJ) and even YDT was at best a LOCH Great. Why would HS spend 40 years in recluse to invent something to beat essentially scrubs? (remember that Ming Cult's best fighters already died at his hand)
    Huang Shang was probably concerned they might find a way to gang up on him again and wanted to invent a MA that would defeat the entire group just in case.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    I read somewhere the author of the 9 Yin Manuals was Huang Shang. He had a beef with the Ming Cult and created 9 Yin to counter the Persian martial arts, including their top martial arts style, Qiankun Danuoyi?
    If so, then the final HSDS battle between Zhang Wuji and Zhou Jirou should be a delayed battle that should happen between Huang Shan and the Ming Cult of his era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainsuker View Post
    If so, then the final HSDS battle between Zhang Wuji and Zhou Jirou should be a delayed battle that should happen between Huang Shan and the Ming Cult of his era.
    I don't think ZWJ used QKDNY against ZZR.

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    Thanks for the info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by St3v3 View Post
    I don't think ZWJ used QKDNY against ZZR.
    But he still the representation of QKDNY master of his era, and ZZR is the representation of 9 Yin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    The problem of this theory is no one ever fully mastered Qian Kun Shift except Wuji which mean you can only counter 6th level at best..
    I don't understand this. How can nobody can fully mastered Qian Kun Shift except Wuji. What about the creator of the Art him/herself? If Wuji is even better than the creator / inventor of Qian Kun Shift, then he's more than fully mastered the art. He expanded it. But if he just reach the highest level of Qian Kun Shift, then he couldn't be better than someone who created the Qian Kun Shift.

    So who know, that the Ming Cult master at the time of Huang Shang era was actually the creator of the art, and he beat Huang Shang with Qian Kun Shift that has similar level as Zhang Wuji.

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    We should think about this. The Condor Heroes Trilogy is actually the story about 9 Yin Manual. Because The only martial art that existed in all the trilogy is the 9 Yin Manual. Also, 9 Yin Manual always become the central story of the trilogy. From the beginning (the Five Masters fight in Hua Shan) to the secret of Dragon Sabre are all about 9 Yin Manual.

    So, if the 9 Yin was started by Huang Shang who fought against Ming Cult in the back story of the trilogy, then the best conclusion of the Art (9 Yin) should be the showdown between Ming Cult (Zhang Wu Ji) against the master of 9 Yin in HSDS series, ZZR. Because that's how the story start, and how the story should end.

    And because the best art of Ming Cult is Qian Kun shift, and the only Ming Cult Art that Zhang Wuji possess is the Qian Kun Shift, then logically, Huang Shang should created 9 Yin to counter that. Because it would be like an anti climax for the 9 Yin conclusion if it's not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainsuker View Post
    I don't understand this. How can nobody can fully mastered Qian Kun Shift except Wuji. What about the creator of the Art him/herself? If Wuji is even better than the creator / inventor of Qian Kun Shift, then he's more than fully mastered the art. He expanded it. But if he just reach the highest level of Qian Kun Shift, then he couldn't be better than someone who created the Qian Kun Shift.

    So who know, that the Ming Cult master at the time of Huang Shang era was actually the creator of the art, and he beat Huang Shang with Qian Kun Shift that has similar level as Zhang Wuji.
    You might be right but don't forget you need "supermassive internal level" not just "good internal level" to fully mastered Qian Kun Shift and since Ming Cult is not Shaolin which famous with "internal art/method" I highly doubt you can did it..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    You might be right but don't forget you need "supermassive internal level" not just "good internal level" to fully mastered Qian Kun Shift and since Ming Cult is not Shaolin which famous with "internal art/method" I highly doubt you can did it..
    I don't think it's impossible. Just takes a long time to move up the levels of Qian Kun Shift, like decades. The super internal level just reduces the time to master.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    I don't think it's impossible. Just takes a long time to move up the levels of Qian Kun Shift, like decades. The super internal level just reduces the time to master.
    Then why no one ever mastered 7th level except Wuji not even the creator..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Then why no one ever mastered 7th level except Wuji not even the creator..
    Lack of inner power. Cheung Mo Gei had the good fortune of learning the complete 9 Yeung Jen Ging first, which gave him a hellacious amount of inner power that the previous Ming Cult Leaders never had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Lack of inner power. Cheung Mo Gei had the good fortune of learning the complete 9 Yeung Jen Ging first, which gave him a hellacious amount of inner power that the previous Ming Cult Leaders never had.
    I don't understand this. How can nobody can fully mastered Qian Kun Shift except Wuji. What about the creator of the Art him/herself? If Wuji is even better than the creator / inventor of Qian Kun Shift, then he's more than fully mastered the art. He expanded it. But if he just reach the highest level of Qian Kun Shift, then he couldn't be better than someone who created the Qian Kun Shift.

    So who know, that the Ming Cult master at the time of Huang Shang era was actually the creator of the art, and he beat Huang Shang with Qian Kun Shift that has similar level as Zhang Wuji.

    ....

    That's why I said no one ever fully mastered Qian Kun Shift until highest level except Wuji and since Wuji live almost 200 years after Huang Shang it's rather illogical if 9 Yin is the "black star" of Qian Kun Shift..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    I don't understand this. How can nobody can fully mastered Qian Kun Shift except Wuji. What about the creator of the Art him/herself? If Wuji is even better than the creator / inventor of Qian Kun Shift, then he's more than fully mastered the art. He expanded it. But if he just reach the highest level of Qian Kun Shift, then he couldn't be better than someone who created the Qian Kun Shift.
    It happened twice in Jin Yong's canon: with Tibet's Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung and the Ming Cult's Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee.

    I believe it was said that by the end of ROCH, the Golden Wheel Monk had attained a higher level in the Lama Buddhist Tibetan martial art Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung than any of its previous practitioners, including whoever created the skill. It was also said that it was theoretically possible to attain even higher levels, but that nobody would be able to accomplish such levels because people don't live that long (e.g. it would take centuries).

    Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee also operated on this concept. Cheung Mo Gei attained a higher level than any previous Ming Cult Leader because the 9 Yeung Jen Ging reduced the time needed to achieve his level by multiple decades, but higher levels than even he achieved were hypothetically possible...if someone could only live 200+ years.

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    In the case of QKDNY, JY wrote that even the original creator did not have as much inner power as ZWJ, which is why he (the creator) could only master Level 6 and a part of Level 7. The last few paragraphs that he wrote on Level 7 was just from his creative mind and imagination, ie., he never practiced it. ZWJ of course failed to master this part and he wisely stopped pushing.

    So,not even ZWJ can say he has fully mastered QKDNY.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Then why no one ever mastered 7th level except Wuji not even the creator..
    Then it is impossible for the 7th level to exist prior Wuji's era. It is either that someone created the 7th level prior Zhang Wuji (which means that the creator was also capable to perform Qian Kun Shift to 7th level), or Zhang Wuji himself created the 7th level, inspired by the scripture that he read on the island; but he thought that somebody else created it before him.

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