Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Can someone please explain the Heaven Sword/Dragon Sabre logic to me once more pls?

  1. #1
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,497

    Default Can someone please explain the Heaven Sword/Dragon Sabre logic to me once more pls?

    OK so:

    1. Dragon Sabre: Contains Yue Fei manual. Can kick out Mongols, unify the world with military tactics. Become Emperor.

    2. Heaven Sword: Can learn ultimate kung-fu, kill the Emperor if he becomes a despot.

    How dafug is that supposed to work when you need BOTH weapons to get the Yue Fei manual to become Emperor in the first place and having the Yue Fei manual also unlocks the 9 Yin at the same time! So you either don't kick out the Mongols, or have the chance of a despotic Emperor with ultimate kung fu.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  2. #2
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    OK so:

    1. Dragon Sabre: Contains Yue Fei manual. Can kick out Mongols, unify the world with military tactics. Become Emperor.

    2. Heaven Sword: Can learn ultimate kung-fu, kill the Emperor if he becomes a despot.

    How dafug is that supposed to work when you need BOTH weapons to get the Yue Fei manual to become Emperor in the first place and having the Yue Fei manual also unlocks the 9 Yin at the same time! So you either don't kick out the Mongols, or have the chance of a despotic Emperor with ultimate kung fu.
    Medieval people, including those in Chinese wulin, were people of faith. In their belief system, Heaven would guide the weapons to the individual(s) of destiny. As Gwok Jing and Wong Yung saw it, once they created and loaded the weapons, the rest was in the hands of fate.

    And though fate took complicated turns that no one could foresee, they ultimately did help to get the job done.

  3. #3
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    5,497

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Medieval people, including those in Chinese wulin, were people of faith. In their belief system, Heaven would guide the weapons to the individual(s) of destiny. As Gwok Jing and Wong Yung saw it, once they created and loaded the weapons, the rest was in the hands of fate.

    And though fate took complicated turns that no one could foresee, they ultimately did help to get the job done.
    Oh c,mon. Even in the right hands they cant crack it open unless you have both so its useless.

    If you already expect an act of destiny to solve the issue, you could just as well hide the manuals in a cave, with a jade statue.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    OK so:

    1. Dragon Sabre: Contains Yue Fei manual. Can kick out Mongols, unify the world with military tactics. Become Emperor.

    2. Heaven Sword: Can learn ultimate kung-fu, kill the Emperor if he becomes a despot.

    How dafug is that supposed to work when you need BOTH weapons to get the Yue Fei manual to become Emperor in the first place and having the Yue Fei manual also unlocks the 9 Yin at the same time! So you either don't kick out the Mongols, or have the chance of a despotic Emperor with ultimate kung fu.
    I think ultimate kung fu is ultimately meaningless in terms of ruling and keeping power. If you're a tyrant you'll be constantly living under the sword of Damocles, great kung fu or not. Yeah great kung fu helps ward off those assassination attempts, but it won't help dealing with uprising and massive amount of troops. Even the Guo Jing, one of the top martial artists of his era, succumbed to the Mongol invasions.

  5. #5
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Oh c,mon. Even in the right hands they cant crack it open unless you have both so its useless.

    If you already expect an act of destiny to solve the issue, you could just as well hide the manuals in a cave, with a jade statue.
    That was the failsafe. Gwok Jing and Wong Yung trusted that the right people would be able to bring the weapons together and the wrong people wouldn't. It's no crazier than that boobytrapped box where Iron Palm Union Chief Seung Gwoon hid the only known manuscript of the Mo Muk War Tactics Manual. The only way to open the box safely and retrieve the contents was to throw it on the ground so that when the box opened, the lid was facing *away* from the thrower. Most people would have just opened the box normally and gotten killed by the boobytrap. Gwok Jing managed to avoid this fate only because he threw the box to the ground in frustration, thinking that it was useless that he had found the manual because he was trapped in an ice cave and would never be able to use it to deliver the Sung Kingdom from foreign invaders. Chief Seung Gwoon was counting on something like that, and Gwok Jing and Wong Yung counted on a similar gambit with the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre.

    Again, it's that medieval belief in fate and destiny. Moreover, I think Gwok Jing and Wong Yung's original expectation was that Gwok Seung, Gwok Por Lo, or even Yeung Gor would be able to keep the weapons together. They were counting on the kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    I think ultimate kung fu is ultimately meaningless in terms of ruling and keeping power. If you're a tyrant you'll be constantly living under the sword of Damocles, great kung fu or not. Yeah great kung fu helps ward off those assassination attempts, but it won't help dealing with uprising and massive amount of troops. Even the Guo Jing, one of the top martial artists of his era, succumbed to the Mongol invasions.
    It helps one stay alive long enough to enact the bigger plan.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    It helps one stay alive long enough to enact the bigger plan.
    Yeah ultimately you have to have strength through numbers. People act like just because your martial arts is #1 you are invincible and can do whatever you want.

  7. #7
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    Yeah ultimately you have to have strength through numbers. People act like just because your martial arts is #1 you are invincible and can do whatever you want.
    The Mo Yungs learned the hard way that the road to conquest doesn't go through wulin. Occasionally, however, individual martial arts prowess has proven to be a gamechanger on the national level: if Siu Fung, Hui Juk, and Deun Yu don't break through the Khitan army to reach Emperor Yeh Lut Hung Gei, a Khitan invasion of Sung would likely have followed. If Yeung Gor didn't kill Mongke Khan, Seung Yeung would have fallen thirteen years sooner.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    62

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    The Mo Yungs learned the hard way that the road to conquest doesn't go through wulin. Occasionally, however, individual martial arts prowess has proven to be a gamechanger on the national level: if Siu Fung, Hui Juk, and Deun Yu don't break through the Khitan army to reach Emperor Yeh Lut Hung Gei, a Khitan invasion of Sung would likely have followed. If Yeung Gor didn't kill Mongke Khan, Seung Yeung would have fallen thirteen years sooner.
    Yeah good discussion and good examples. Conversely, you could say Genghis was the most powerful and influential person in the trilogy not because of his martial arts but because of his control over his army.

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    108

    Default

    I just remember there was tv adaptation (including 2019) heaven sword contain 9yin manual and HL18Z and then it change into Daohua Map where the manual located, but later in the story only 9yin manual in th hands of ZZR, no clue about HL18Z. It seems that JY want to make it legendary skills that no one will fully used it again after Xiangyang fallen. (Gaibang chief during HSDS only mastered 12 stances)

    A simple question after I grown up and learned some physics, how the manual/map forged in the saber and sword. If it is paper, it will be burned, if it is metal it might be stick to the sabre/sword during forging.

    Then there will be some empty space within the saber/sword and it is still very strong and sharp lmao. I sometimes wonder if the metal is still steel or it is already advanced adamantium/vibranium.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by St3v3 View Post
    I just remember there was tv adaptation (including 2019) heaven sword contain 9yin manual and HL18Z and then it change into Daohua Map where the manual located, but later in the story only 9yin manual in th hands of ZZR, no clue about HL18Z. It seems that JY want to make it legendary skills that no one will fully used it again after Xiangyang fallen. (Gaibang chief during HSDS only mastered 12 stances)

    A simple question after I grown up and learned some physics, how the manual/map forged in the saber and sword. If it is paper, it will be burned, if it is metal it might be stick to the sabre/sword during forging.

    Then there will be some empty space within the saber/sword and it is still very strong and sharp lmao. I sometimes wonder if the metal is still steel or it is already advanced adamantium/vibranium.
    Great points about the rarity of HL18Z and about the implausibility of shoving paper into blades! You're 100% right, that would leave an empty space and unbalance the weapon!

    Were the verses pertaining to the Dragon Saber and Heavenly Sword composed by Huang Rong?

    CC is right that the verses are illogical, since the verses hinted at two separate, INDEPENDENT treasures, while in reality you needed both and it's impossible to fulfill the written intent.

    But perhaps cunning Huang Rong or whoever wrote those verses could NOT make it obvious that you needed both weapons, so they wrote it to mislead the masses hinting at two independent treasures.

    It's a game of chance and fate, but a RIGGED game of chance since the secret key to the verses was only held by Guo Xiang's chosen Emei successor.

    So the verses would ensure that the weapon stays in the public limelight, and when the time is ripe, only Emei can unlock the secret, nobody else can!

    Even Xie Xun who is a genius himself, and HIGHLY motivated to unlock the secret failed miserably after 10 years.

    Who do you guys think can unravel this secret without knowing the secret teaching of Emei?

    As he intimately caresses his precious blade, a Sword Nerd like Ximen Chuxue would immediately notice a small notch in the Dragon Sabre. He would reflect on why such a masterpiece of a weapon would have such a glaring, negligent flaw? Was this deliberate?

    Obviously SWORD GOD Zhuo Buofan would come to this same conclusion.

    So these two luminaries can go further, and perhaps their obsession with the sword would lead them to seek the Heavenly Sword as well, and once in hand, they would notice the 2nd notch!

    Also, on a related note, I feel that finding the Dragon Saber is like finding a poisoned gift. NOTHING good will come from it.

    At least if you found 9 Yin manual before Wang Chongyang did, you could peruse it for 3 days and have fun practicing a few teachings before getting slaughtered by the next owner.

    Xie Xun literally wasted 10 years of his life and could not even come close to unraveling its secret.

  11. #11
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by St3v3 View Post
    I just remember there was tv adaptation (including 2019) heaven sword contain 9yin manual and HL18Z and then it change into Daohua Map where the manual located, but later in the story only 9yin manual in th hands of ZZR, no clue about HL18Z. It seems that JY want to make it legendary skills that no one will fully used it again after Xiangyang fallen. (Gaibang chief during HSDS only mastered 12 stances)

    A simple question after I grown up and learned some physics, how the manual/map forged in the saber and sword. If it is paper, it will be burned, if it is metal it might be stick to the sabre/sword during forging.

    Then there will be some empty space within the saber/sword and it is still very strong and sharp lmao. I sometimes wonder if the metal is still steel or it is already advanced adamantium/vibranium.
    Chow Chi Yerk acquired the Hong Lung 18 Palms manual as well, but it was personally useless to her because Hong Lung 18 Palms was not suitable for women to use. I've read that in one adaptation, she provided the manual to Sung Ching Sheu, and he learned the palms, but I don't think that's canonical.

  12. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    325

    Default

    This is my interpretation of the whole scheme, clearly masterminded by Huang Rong.

    First of all, without the knowing the secret that was passed down through Emei, one would never be able to unravel the mystery of the two weapons, no matter how smart that person is. So, HR clearly intended for Guo Xiang and her descendants ONLY to be able to recover the treasures (the hidden manuals). HR didn't leave it to fate. Only GX or, more likely, her descendants could unravel the sceret.

    Now, to keep the weapons alive and being circulated long enough until GX's descendants became strong enough to reclaim them, HR created the whole ruse. Also, in the cryptic riddle, HR purposely touted only the Dragon Sabre as having the ultimate power. This way wulin would keep chasing over the sabre and kinda leave the Heaven sword alone.

    The whole scheme almost worked as planned. The manuals indeed fell back into the hands of GX's descendants and if ZZR was a capable person, she would be able to carry out the plan and bring glory back to the Guo's family.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Giang Ho, Canada
    Posts
    4,876

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    Yeah good discussion and good examples. Conversely, you could say Genghis was the most powerful and influential person in the trilogy not because of his martial arts but because of his control over his army.
    Genghis was powerful but he can't compare to the greats.

  14. #14
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Genghis was powerful but he can't compare to the greats.
    More like the other way around. The Greats were supreme martial artists, but none of them ruled all of Eurasia.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    2,400

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    More like the other way around. The Greats were supreme martial artists, but none of them ruled all of Eurasia.
    Yeah totally agree Mike Tyson might be one of the strongest person if not the strongest one at his peak but he can't compare with people like J.F Kennedy or Mao Zedong in terms of "power" and "authority"..

Similar Threads

  1. Can 6MDS cut the Heaven Sword/Dragon Sabre?
    By athlee in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 07-20-23, 02:08 AM
  2. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 08-21-19, 02:23 PM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-12-12, 01:18 AM
  4. Lack of logic regarding Dragon Sabre in HSDS?
    By tape in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 09-24-08, 08:01 PM
  5. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-09-07, 11:49 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •