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Thread: Golden Wheel Monk and Guo Jing contradictions

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Golden Wheel Monk and Guo Jing contradictions

    The contradiction around Guo Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk surrounding their martial arts. Both martial arts belong to the top tier of martial arts experts in the ROCH realm. Yet, the two rarely fight one another. The main reason is the Golden Wheel Monk is Yang Guo’s antagonist and not Guo Jing. Yang Guo is destined to have a final battle against the Golden Wheel Monk. Hence, the author Jin Yong, boosts the Golden Wheel Monk to the level (or near level) of a great. However, in this post I would like point out a contradiction that Guo Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk do NOT need to exchange one1000 stances to determine who is the winner.

    In chapter 21 in ROCH, Guo Jing and Yang Guo enter the Mongolian army camp to save those useless Wu brothers. After some pleasantries from Kublai Khan, Guo Jing disagrees with him and takes his leave. After easily defeating eight Mongolian wrestlers, he is soon confronted by the Golden Wheel Monk, Nimoxing, Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi. Guo Jing manages to assess his opponents by how they draw their weapons. Guo Jing sees that Yin Kexi is slightly weaker than the other two (Nimoxing and Xiaoxiang Zi). In one exchange he grabs the whip of Yin Kexi and with his other hand the dagger Yin Kexi has. Yin Kexi wants to use his dagger to force Guo Jing to release his grip on the whip, but ended having both weapons in Guo Jing’s grip. (Although Jin Yong did not write this, I believe Guo Jing used the Dual Technique which he learnt from Zhou Botong.

    At this point, the other three experts are making their moves, and Guo Jing pours his internal energy into the whip and Yin Kexi feels a pain in his chest and is wounded quite seriously and backs out of the fight. In other words, Guo Jing can defeat the likes of Yin Kexi, who is marginally weaker than Nimoxing and Xiaoxiang Zi, in one exchange. This something that the Golden Wheel Monk has not displayed. In fact, in an earlier he clumsily struggles against Nimoxing.

    Now we come to the actual author contradiction., in chapter 21 The Golden Wheel Monk, Xiaoxiang Zi and other first rather martial artists will not stoop to the level of ganging up on an opponent. HOWEVER, Guo Jing’s martial arts are is truly formidable. Later in the chapter, the paradox continues;[/i]The martial arts level between Guo Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk are about the same level. Guo Jing benefitted from various martial arts opportunities, but the Golden Wheel Monk is 20 years older and has 20 years more internal energy. If the two fight, the fight would drag out to at least 1000 stances before a clear victor emerges. With the help of two first rate martial artists like Nimoxing and Xiaoxiang Zi; the Golden Wheel Monk should gain the upper hand. HOWEVER, Guo Jing’s 18 Dragon Subduing Palms are truly powrful and in his palm technique he uses the theory of Quanzhen School’s Big Dipper Formation. In the fight, he gallivants between the three : making it look like that there are seven Guo Jings. On top of that, with wounding Yin Kexi in one stance, the three has lost their ardor.[/I]

    Repeatedly, Guo Jing is able to keep NImoxing and Xiaoxiang Zi at distance. The only reason they do not suffer an injury is because of the circumstances: Golden Wheel Monk and thousands of Mongolian soldiers. In other words, in a normal fight, Xiaoxiang Zi and Nimoxing would be defeated in one stance just like Yin Kexi.

    Then there is praise or admiration from the Golden Wheel Monk towards Guo Jing’s martial arts. The first one is when Guo Jing used “The ladder to Heaven” at the walls of Xiang Yang. He is shocked that someone could rise a meter or so, whereas most who trained this still could only do a few centimeters. The second time he respects Guo Jing was when Guo Jing comes empty handed and shows no fear amongst thousand of soldiers and not to mention a group of first rate martial artists.

    The third time is when Guo Jing and Yang Guo try to leave the Mongolian army camp. Guo Jing first throws two soldiers at the Golden Wheel Monk and shouted:” Catch!”. The Golden Wheel Monk know if he catches those two soldiers, Guo Jing would be farther away. So, he used his left shoulder to bump those solders away and continued his pursuit. Guo Jing realizes that even he is to indulge in an martial arts exchange with the Golden Wheel Monk; the other two experts will catch up and leaving the camp would be another costly and dangerous situation. Guo Jing grabs two spears from two soldiers and one spear was aimed at the right shoulder of the Golden Wheel Monk and the other towards his chest. Guo Jing is able to do so without turning around. It is like he had eyes in the back of his head and not stopping. The Golden Wheel Monk was impressed by this.

    It seems that the Golden Wheel Monk has respect for Guo Jing’s character and martial arts; whereas his contemporary, Guo Jing, only praised the Golden Wheel Monk in the Heroes’ Meeting (one time). So, the contradiction is that in order to have a credible and powerful adversary for Yang Guo to overcome at the novel. Jin Yong created the Golden Wheel Monk and described him as an equal to the Greats or Guo Jing. Despite that, the contradictions speak volumes. The Golden Wheel Monk is not an equal in reality. Similar to Qiu Qianren and Zhang Wuji, they get hold of the short end of the stick.
    Last edited by Athena; 11-23-23 at 11:28 PM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Addendum: I am on the side that Guo Jing and Yang Guo are the same level. Using the Golden Wheel Monk as a comparison. Yang Guo’s Sad Palms are more refined than the Golden Wheel Monk’s techniques. Internal energy, wise, they are comparable, but Yang Guo has the edge in more cultivated techniques.

    Guo Jing has the same advantage over the Golden Wheel Monk. During the battle at the Mongolian army camp, Guo Jing displayed a wide range of sophisticated skill set: 18 Dragon Subduing Palms, The Big Dipper Formation and energy conservation from Jiuyin. Similarly, Guo Jing has the edge over the Golden Wheel Monk.

    The two heroes of ROCH outshine the Golden Wheel Monk despite Jin Yong trying to create a worthy adversary. He does, but the Golden Wheel Monk does get the short end of the stick at the end of the day.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    No one is interested in this topic.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    How about Greats vs Jinlun..

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    The Golden Wheel Monk seemingly used his powerful internal energy, and less on stances. The only sophisticated art he created was the Five Wheel Encirclemet to counter the Swordmanship of the Jade Maiden. However, that set of martial arts was not enough as he hadn't finished working out the flaws.

    Pre-16 years, the Golden Wheel Monk was weary to fight Zhou Botong. So, he tricked Zhao Zhijing to use those venemous spiders against Zhou.


    Post 16 years, the situation was different. The Greats (Zhou Botong, Yideng and Huang Yaoshi were in their late 80s or early 90s), so physically they should have less stamina, The Golden Wheel Monk was around 70 and used brute force. That is why Huang Rong was worried that Yideng might lose, and used the eagles to distract the Golden Wheel Monk.

    Then Huang Yaoshi appeared and surrounded the Golden Wheel Monk; he said something rather cool:" In an one to one battle, I fear none of you."

    With that said, Zhou Botong might be the only one who had an edge over the Golden Monk.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    The Golden Wheel Monk seemingly used his powerful internal energy, and less on stances. The only sophisticated art he created was the Five Wheel Encirclemet to counter the Swordmanship of the Jade Maiden. However, that set of martial arts was not enough as he hadn't finished working out the flaws.

    Pre-16 years, the Golden Wheel Monk was weary to fight Zhou Botong. So, he tricked Zhao Zhijing to use those venemous spiders against Zhou.


    Post 16 years, the situation was different. The Greats (Zhou Botong, Yideng and Huang Yaoshi were in their late 80s or early 90s), so physically they should have less stamina, The Golden Wheel Monk was around 70 and used brute force. That is why Huang Rong was worried that Yideng might lose, and used the eagles to distract the Golden Wheel Monk.

    Then Huang Yaoshi appeared and surrounded the Golden Wheel Monk; he said something rather cool:" In an one to one battle, I fear none of you."

    With that said, Zhou Botong might be the only one who had an edge over the Golden Monk.
    Hand to hand combat without weapon I also think Zhou Botong would win but if Jinlun play "dirty" like using weapon I think he would win since no one ever going "toe to toe" against Post-16 Jinlun and his wheels except Yang Guo not even Guo Jing he didn't dare to catch Jinlun's wheels while Yang Guo he "push back" Jinlun's wheels only with his sleeve..

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    @Ken Cheng: Hi Ken, I thought this topic would have been interesting to you as a fellow Guo Jing fan.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Well I wonder what if Jinlun use his "flying wheels" against Guo Jing since Guo Jing didn't dare to catch Jinlun's wheels..

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    If I recall during the fight in the Mongolian camp, the Golden Wheel Monk did use his chakram.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Nach it was Pre-16 Jinlun and Guo Jing didn't dare to fight him and his wheels "head on" so Post-16 Jinlun would give Guo Jing hard fight more than Pre-16 Jinlun though I think Guo Jing still win but is not as easy as people think I mean if Yang Guo need 200+ stances then Guo Jing maybe need at least 500+ stances to beat Jinlun which quite close fight..

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Pre 16 years, Guo Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk only fought twice. The first time was at the Heroes’ Summit. Golden Wheel Monk suffered internal energy due to his pride.

    The second time was at the Mongolian camp. The Golden Wheel Monk did use his chakras, and Guo Jing managed to block those attacks with the 18 Subduing Palms, Jiuyin internal energy and the Big Dipper Formation.
    Heck, Li Mochou was able to block the chakras while carrying little Guo Xiang.

    This is what the original topic is about. Jin Yong wrote that the Golden Wheel Monk is on par with Guo Jing, but in the same sentence Jin Yong also wrote that Guo Jing’s martial arts are formidable and that the 18 Dragon Subduing Palms are too powerful. Sp. Hence the contradiction.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    Pre 16 years, Guo Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk only fought twice. The first time was at the Heroes’ Summit. Golden Wheel Monk suffered internal energy due to his pride.

    The second time was at the Mongolian camp. The Golden Wheel Monk did use his chakras, and Guo Jing managed to block those attacks with the 18 Subduing Palms, Jiuyin internal energy and the Big Dipper Formation.
    Heck, Li Mochou was able to block the chakras while carrying little Guo Xiang.

    This is what the original topic is about. Jin Yong wrote that the Golden Wheel Monk is on par with Guo Jing, but in the same sentence Jin Yong also wrote that Guo Jing’s martial arts are formidable and that the 18 Dragon Subduing Palms are too powerful. Sp. Hence the contradiction.
    Guo Jing might be could block Jinlun's wheels if not "flying" but when Jinlun threw it he didn't dare again to face the wheels "head on" same with Zhou Botong at Passionless Valley he also didn't dare to "catch" Jinlun's wheels and for Li Mochou I think Jinlun not going "all-out" here that's why Li Mochou could "block" though logically no matter how good Li Mochou he can't compare with great-level fighters like Jinlun so I think unless Guo Jing could find a way to deal with Jinlun flying wheels he would win perhaps with use sword/weapon..

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    Guo Jing might be could block Jinlun's wheels if not "flying" but when Jinlun threw it he didn't dare again to face the wheels "head on" same with Zhou Botong at Passionless Valley he also didn't dare to "catch" Jinlun's wheels and for Li Mochou I think Jinlun not going "all-out" here that's why Li Mochou could "block" though logically no matter how good Li Mochou he can't compare with great-level fighters like Jinlun so I think unless Guo Jing could find a way to deal with Jinlun flying wheels he would win perhaps with use sword/weapon..

    Guo Jing was never in a fight where he 'dare not' catch the chakras; neither did the Golden Wheel Monk throw his chakras at Guo Jing. Well, he did throw them at the horse that Guo Jing and Yang Guo were riding to escape.
    So, therer is no evidence in the canon that Guo Jing 'dare not' catch the chakras.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    Guo Jing was never in a fight where he 'dare not' catch the chakras; neither did the Golden Wheel Monk throw his chakras at Guo Jing. Well, he did throw them at the horse that Guo Jing and Yang Guo were riding to escape.
    So, therer is no evidence in the canon that Guo Jing 'dare not' catch the chakras.
    Then why Guo Jing need to "lowered his head" if the wheels aiming the horses..

    Return of The Condor Hero chapter 21

    Guo Jing saw that the wheels were coming in with great force and did not dare to use his hands to catch them. He lowered his head and pressed down on the necks of the two horses with his hands; the horses lowered their front legs just in time for the iron and bronze wheel to brush over their heads. The two wheels turned in midair and flew back into Fawang’s hands. This slight delay allowed Nimoxing and Yin Kexi to arrive in front of Guo Jing and Yang Guo. Fawang and Xiaoxiang Zi arrived a little later and the four surrounded them.

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    But he was on a horse and trying to escape the Mongolian camp with Yang Guo. The wheels came from behind, Guo Jing would have turned around on his horse to POSSIBILY catch the chakras. I am not saying Guo Jing can catch them, but with the circumstanstial evidence, it is unfair to say that Guo Jing can't.

    On a separate note, the Golden Wheel Monk lost a lot of his chakras in the novel.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    But he was on a horse and trying to escape the Mongolian camp with Yang Guo. The wheels came from behind, Guo Jing would have turned around on his horse to POSSIBILY catch the chakras. I am not saying Guo Jing can catch them, but with the circumstanstial evidence, it is unfair to say that Guo Jing can't.

    On a separate note, the Golden Wheel Monk lost a lot of his chakras in the novel.
    Well I also never say that Guo Jing must catch/block Jinlun's attack but the novel itself say that Guo Jing "did not dare to catch the wheels" which aiming to his head that's why he need to "lowered his head" though I think he should can use his palm wind (LDA) to "reduce" the wheels's force rather than just "avoid" it but JY have other option by saying Guo Jing "did not dare to catch" so I would stand with JY word here..

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    The chakras was aimed at his head; unless he is a yoga expert and contort his arms to catch those flying chakras at his head. I think we can agree that the head is the most vulnerable part of the body. let us suppose Guo Jing's catch is off while reading a horse. Then it is off with his head. Of course in that scenario, he dare not catch it.

    However, the circumstances for Guo Jing were very unfavourable at the time. Thousands of soldiers and four martial arts experts.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    The chakras was aimed at his head; unless he is a yoga expert and contort his arms to catch those flying chakras at his head. I think we can agree that the head is the most vulnerable part of the body. let us suppose Guo Jing's catch is off while reading a horse. Then it is off with his head. Of course in that scenario, he dare not catch it.

    However, the circumstances for Guo Jing were very unfavourable at the time. Thousands of soldiers and four martial arts experts.
    Still JY say he "did not dare" no matter the situation since Yang Guo situation during the final battle against Jinlun is not better than Guo Jing yet he dare to match Jinlun and his wheels "head on" without weapon at all though given Guo Jing's skill I think he could use his palm wind/LDA to block it no necessary to "lowered his head" except he can't did LDA or JY want Jinlun to looks "strong"..

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    I mean if I was Guo Jing I would push/swing side the wheels with my palm wind to "reduce" the force no need to "lowered my head"..

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    I don't understand your English. Do you mean instead galloping, he uses his hands to push the wheels a side. He is riding a horse; of course he is to reign and gallop the horse with his hands. His hands are occupied. Riding a horse with reigning and galloping is a dangerous activity.

    Guo Jing was in a very dangerous situation. The odds were against him; this was not a normal wulin duel. He had to get back to Xiang Yang as soon as possible as he was the unofficial commander of Xiang Yang.
    Last edited by Athena; 11-23-23 at 01:36 PM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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