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Thread: Was there discrepancy between Xie Xun's Ming Cult position and his martial arts?

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    Default Was there discrepancy between Xie Xun's Ming Cult position and his martial arts?

    Xie Xun had a pretty high and lofty position in the Ming Cult as one of the Four Guardians. Also, Yang Dingtian also thought well enough of him to make him the succeeding cult leader in his will, should anything happen to him. My only problem was that Xie Xun's martial arts seemed very weak to merit such a high position in the cult. He was badly beaten by Cheng Kun every time and couldn't defend or avenge his family. He had to steal and master the Seven Harms Fist manual from Kongtong Sect to be a formidable and feared martial arts. So was his martial arts before that really trash?

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    Xie Xun had a pretty high and lofty position in the Ming Cult as one of the Four Guardians. Also, Yang Dingtian also thought well enough of him to make him the succeeding cult leader in his will, should anything happen to him. My only problem was that Xie Xun's martial arts seemed very weak to merit such a high position in the cult. He was badly beaten by Cheng Kun every time and couldn't defend or avenge his family. He had to steal and master the Seven Harms Fist manual from Kongtong Sect to be a formidable and feared martial arts. So was his martial arts before that really trash?
    YDT perhaps thought about XX's character which much more "ortodhox" and "righteous" among Ming Cult's elite then talk about martial arts/skills as a clan leader he would allowed to learn Qian Kun Shift so if anything gone right he wouldn't need 7 Injury Fist anymore to "improve" his skills..

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    Xie Xun had a pretty high and lofty position in the Ming Cult as one of the Four Guardians. Also, Yang Dingtian also thought well enough of him to make him the succeeding cult leader in his will, should anything happen to him. My only problem was that Xie Xun's martial arts seemed very weak to merit such a high position in the cult. He was badly beaten by Cheng Kun every time and couldn't defend or avenge his family. He had to steal and master the Seven Harms Fist manual from Kongtong Sect to be a formidable and feared martial arts. So was his martial arts before that really trash?
    All of the Four Guardian Lords and the Left and Right Heralds were at approximately same level. Nobody really stood out in terms of martial arts (which is part of the reason the Ming Cult could not immediately find a proper successor for Yeung Ding Teen). However, Yeung Ding Teen felt that Tse Tsun had the character best suited to be the next Cult Leader. One of Tse's qualifications was that all the others got along well with him and respected him. He had no enemies within the cult.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    YDT perhaps thought about XX's character which much more "ortodhox" and "righteous" among Ming Cult's elite then talk about martial arts/skills as a clan leader he would allowed to learn Qian Kun Shift so if anything gone right he wouldn't need 7 Injury Fist anymore to "improve" his skills..
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    All of the Four Guardian Lords and the Left and Right Heralds were at approximately same level. Nobody really stood out in terms of martial arts (which is part of the reason the Ming Cult could not immediately find a proper successor for Yeung Ding Teen). However, Yeung Ding Teen felt that Tse Tsun had the character best suited to be the next Cult Leader. One of Tse's qualifications was that all the others got along well with him and respected him. He had no enemies within the cult.
    Yeah, he was definitely the most noble character in the Ming Cult. But it always seems to me his martial arts didn't become formidable until he mastered Seven Harms Fist from Kongtong Sect. Then he become equal to the other guardians like Daiqisi and Yin Tianzheng.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    Yeah, he was definitely the most noble character in the Ming Cult. But it always seems to me his martial arts didn't become formidable until he mastered Seven Harms Fist from Kongtong Sect. Then he become equal to the other guardians like Daiqisi and Yin Tianzheng.
    I think 7 Injury Fist is like double edge sword for XX in the other side ge going stronger but in the opposite side he going "suffer" due to the lack of internal energy to "protect" his internal organs since only someone like Wuji or YDT's level can fully mastered 7 Injury Fist without worrying about "suffer"/side attack..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    I think 7 Injury Fist is like double edge sword for XX in the other side ge going stronger but in the opposite side he going "suffer" due to the lack of internal energy to "protect" his internal organs since only someone like Wuji or YDT's level can fully mastered 7 Injury Fist without worrying about "suffer"/side attack..
    I mean side effects LOL..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    I think 7 Injury Fist is like double edge sword for XX in the other side ge going stronger but in the opposite side he going "suffer" due to the lack of internal energy to "protect" his internal organs since only someone like Wuji or YDT's level can fully mastered 7 Injury Fist without worrying about "suffer"/side attack..
    Also didn't he rush and not master properly, which cause him to go crazy at certain times. I'm curious how much 7 Injury Fist improve his martial arts level though? What do you think his fighting level when he was still Cheng Kun's student? And after he learn 7 Injury Fist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    Also didn't he rush and not master properly, which cause him to go crazy at certain times. I'm curious how much 7 Injury Fist improve his martial arts level though? What do you think his fighting level when he was still Cheng Kun's student? And after he learn 7 Injury Fist?
    I think is not too far same with 2nd Hero of Wudang even after Tai Chi lesson I never think he is on par with any of Xuanming Eldes or L/R Ming Envoy so even without 7 Injury Fist XX still formidable IMHO same with 2nd Hero which still powerful even without Tai Chi..

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    The other reason is Eagle King still could "keep pace" with XX even after XX learn 7 Injury Fist and wield Dragon Sabre and we know Eagle King not learn anything new during this period..

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    XX practiced 7 Injury Fist because its moves resembled Cheng Kun's fist arts on the surface. When they fight, CK would think that XX is using the fist arts that he taught XX and let his guard down. That was XX's rather naive reason for practicing 7 Fist because obviously someone as cunning as CK would never fall for this trick. In fact, it was CK who actually helped XX steal the 7F manual (XX didn't know about it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    XX practiced 7 Injury Fist because its moves resembled Cheng Kun's fist arts on the surface. When they fight, CK would think that XX is using the fist arts that he taught XX and let his guard down. That was XX's rather naive reason for practicing 7 Fist because obviously someone as cunning as CK would never fall for this trick. In fact, it was CK who actually helped XX steal the 7F manual (XX didn't know about it).
    I think that in the first edition of HSDS, it wasn't 7 Seung Fists, but Hong Lung 18 Palms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    XX practiced 7 Injury Fist because its moves resembled Cheng Kun's fist arts on the surface. When they fight, CK would think that XX is using the fist arts that he taught XX and let his guard down. That was XX's rather naive reason for practicing 7 Fist because obviously someone as cunning as CK would never fall for this trick. In fact, it was CK who actually helped XX steal the 7F manual (XX didn't know about it).
    That's interesting, why did CK helped XX steal the 7F manual? He knew XX would harm himself practicing that martial arts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    The other reason is Eagle King still could "keep pace" with XX even after XX learn 7 Injury Fist and wield Dragon Sabre and we know Eagle King not learn anything new during this period..
    Yeah that's why I think there was a strong deficiency in Xie Xun's martial arts even before 7 Fists. Maybe he was as strong as the other Guardians until he learn 7 Fists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    That's interesting, why did CK helped XX steal the 7F manual? He knew XX would harm himself practicing that martial arts?
    It's part of CK's whole scheme of causing the resentment between Ming Cult and the orthodox sects. According to wulin's code, stealing another sect's arts is the ultimate taboo, worse than murdering their members even. In this case, XX stole Kongtong's signature arts, then used it to kill Kongjian. That ensured Kongtong's declaration of war on Ming Cult, which is what CK wanted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metsrus View Post
    Yeah that's why I think there was a strong deficiency in Xie Xun's martial arts even before 7 Fists. Maybe he was as strong as the other Guardians until he learn 7 Fists.
    I think is not strange at all when someone reach his "peak" it would hard to him to getting a lot stronger just like OYF even without 9 Yin he still very strong and with 9 Yin only make him "slightly better" than the other Greats so XX still as good as Eagle King IMHO even without 7 Injury Fist..

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    I kind of agree with the OP that YDT's passing the reign over to XX, even temporarily, is too big of a reach. XX didn't really have any qualities that would stand out from other Ming lords.

    He's not really a leader and his personality is even more on the loner side. He doesn't really command respect from others anymore than YX, FY, YTZ etc. would. Maybe YDT saw some potential in him but at that point of the story, no way was XX ready to take the leadership role.

    Also, the fact that YDT only taught Yang Xiao QKDNY means that YDT thought of YX higher than he did others. So, the only logical move at that point was to appoint either YX (highest martial arts and overall very capable) or YTZ (oldest) as the temporary leader. Picking XX didn't make a lot of sense.

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    In addition to what EdenResident said, consider that Pre-Fire island Xie Xun was far superior to Zhang Sanfeng's favorite student. That's not too shabby in jianghu.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    I kind of agree with the OP that YDT's passing the reign over to XX, even temporarily, is too big of a reach. XX didn't really have any qualities that would stand out from other Ming lords.

    He's not really a leader and his personality is even more on the loner side. He doesn't really command respect from others anymore than YX, FY, YTZ etc. would. Maybe YDT saw some potential in him but at that point of the story, no way was XX ready to take the leadership role.

    Also, the fact that YDT only taught Yang Xiao QKDNY means that YDT thought of YX higher than he did others. So, the only logical move at that point was to appoint either YX (highest martial arts and overall very capable) or YTZ (oldest) as the temporary leader. Picking XX didn't make a lot of sense.
    Politically, it made sense. Yeung Siu was more capable, but the others resented him because of his haughty disposition. They would never listen to him.

    Tse Tsun, on the other hand, was almost universally well-liked and respected among the Ming Cult. Nobody in the Cult ever had anything bad to say about him.

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    Cheng Kun, even before entering Shaolin, was a renowned martial artist with a fine reputation. Xie Xun even commented that on the Fire Ice Island.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    Cheng Kun, even before entering Shaolin, was a renowned martial artist with a fine reputation. Xie Xun even commented that on the Fire Ice Island.
    So Cheng Kun was around level 50 before training with Kongjian, and level 60 after training with him? I'd put him at lvl 50 pre-Kongjian because Xie Xun was confident he was his equal to him after training 7 Injury Fists, but he didn't realize Cheng Kun also improved training under Kongjian.

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