(ROCH) Gwok Jing vs. Cheung Mo Gei

[superboy]

I'm not sure if GJ is ZMK's equal at the same age, hmm.....
But if that beggar that know 15 palms of HL18Z was able to fend off SK, and ZMk has trouble fighting him, then that will say something. But it could be some mistake here.

[minutemanwayne]

Shi HuoLong only knew 12 Palms. Not only that but his upper body was crippled during the process because of lack of internal energy. And even with only 12 Palms he was able to fight with Yuanzhen to a near draw. Yuanzhen suffered internal damage but was able to heal in several days while Shi HuoLong's wounds were fatal. Yelu Qi himself only manage to learn 14 Palms and he was a pretty talented fighter with a strong martial arts foundation. Those two fighters were around 40+ years old and yet an 18 year old Guo Jing bested them.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by superboy
I'm not sure if GJ is ZMK's equal at the same age, hmm.....
But if that beggar that know 15 palms of HL18Z was able to fend off SK, and ZMk has trouble fighting him, then that will say something. But it could be some mistake here.

I think they are equal at the same age. At the end of HSDS ZWJ is about 23-24 year old. While GJ is only 20 at the end of LOCH. Adding an extra of about 3 years of training to GJ, they could be at the same level. But ZWJ probability still have a bit more inner power than GJ at that same age.

[linghuchong]

Originally posted by Laviathan
Since Wuji learned Nine Yang and Qiankun Danuoyi, his internal power and martial skills could be considered unrivalled. Yet:

1. He had to learn Shaolin Dragon Claw to defeat Kongzhi's Shaolin Dragon Claws. Wuji admitted that he could not have defeated Kongzhi with other techniques.

2. Was almost beaten by the combined sword/saber formation of the Kunlun He couple and the Huashan Elders. Managed to escape because he used Xihuazi as a shield and because he got pointers from Zhou Zhiruo.

3. Was afraid of Miejue's Heaven Sword and had to follow Yang Xiao and Wei Yixiao's instructions to disarm Miejue.

4. Had to learn Taiji Boxing in order to fight Ah San and Ah Er.

5. Had to learn Taiji Sword in order defeat Fang Dongbai.

6. Got struck down Xuanming Elders when trying to stop Zhao Min from leaving Wudang.

7. Thanks to Zhang Sanfeng's instructions during the few months on Wudang, he was able to defeat the Xuanming Elders at Wanan Temple Pagoda.

8. When fighting Fan Yao, Wuji admitted: "If I haven't learned Taiji Sword, I would not be able to defeat this person."

9. On Snake Island, when fighting the Persians, Wuji was struck by the Moon Messenger repeatedly. Wuji was not able to block her attacks, and if it wasn't for his Nine Yang energy protecting his body, his wrist would have been broken.

10. During the fight, Wuji (who was already armed with Heaven Sword) got Dragon Saber from his Godfather, while the Persians used the Holy Fire Scepters. Wuji thought: "Lucky enough that I immediately disarmed one of them at the beginning of the fight. If all three of them were armed, I might not be able to withstand their attacks."

11. Wuji suffered a few blows from the Moon Messenger, containing Penetrating Bone Needle power. Wuji almost got disarmed by the Persians, and had to use both Taiji and the highest level of Qiankun Danuoyi to retrieve the weapon.

12. Eventually, Wuji and the Persians got into a stalemate where Wuji had to withstand multiple attacks from the Penetrating Bone Needle and will surely lose. Golden Lion King had to intervene to save him.

13. Wuji asked the Persians to stop the fight and foolishly retracted his internal power. The Persians then attacked with full power and almost killed Wuji, but lucky for him Zhao Min's kamikaze attack saved the day.

14. In the end, Xiaochao translated the inscriptions on the Holy Fire Scepters. Wuji then learned the complete martial arts system of his opponents and FINALLY he was able to defeat them.

15. When facing the 24 Tibetan Monks, Wuji was struck down by the Xuanming Elders.

16. At Songshan Mountain, Wuji tried to stop Zhou Zhiruo from killing Zhao Min but he got cut by her knife instead.

17. At the Heroes Meeting of Shaolin, ZHou Zhiruo and Wuji had to fight the Three Shaolin Divine Monks. Knowing that ZHou Zhiruo's skills were in fact mediocre, Wuji used the Holy Fire Art to confuse his opponents. Wuji then almost died of insanity.

18. At the end of the novel, Wuji could only handle the Xuanming Elders with the highest level of Qiankun Danuoyi.

Zhang Wuji was a great martial artist, but a lousy fighter. He always had to learn new stuff (preferably the martial arts of his opponents so he could counter them), get pointers or help from others.

In my opinion, Guo Jing can easily defeat Zhang Wuji. In the field of martial arts, they are more or less equals. But when it comes to fighting, Guo Jing is a Ph.D. while Wuji is only Kindergarten level. There's no comparison.

Well said lav, and i do agree that GJ can beat ZMJ easily, ZMJ has great internal energy thanks to 9Yang, and a couple of great techniques making him somewhat superior, but he just lacks the fighting experience that you cant just "learn" like a move, its something that you slowly get over years of training and fighting, where as GJ started training kung fu at a young age with the 7 freaks, then he got taught by Ma Yuk some basic inner energy, HL18Z by H7G and more advanced inner energy through 9 yin, this was just at the end of LOCH
And at the end of ROCH, hes had like 20-30 more years of training on these techniques, GJ really would beat ZWJ easily!

[Meh]

1. He had to learn Shaolin Dragon Claw to defeat Kongzhi's Shaolin Dragon Claws. Wuji admitted that he could not have defeated Kongzhi with other techniques.

2. Was almost beaten by the combined sword/saber formation of the Kunlun He couple and the Huashan Elders. Managed to escape because he used Xihuazi as a shield and because he got pointers from Zhou Zhiruo.

3. Was afraid of Miejue's Heaven Sword and had to follow Yang Xiao and Wei Yixiao's instructions to disarm Miejue.

4. Had to learn Taiji Boxing in order to fight Ah San and Ah Er.

5. Had to learn Taiji Sword in order defeat Fang Dongbai.

6. Got struck down Xuanming Elders when trying to stop Zhao Min from leaving Wudang.

7. Thanks to Zhang Sanfeng's instructions during the few months on Wudang, he was able to defeat the Xuanming Elders at Wanan Temple Pagoda.

8. When fighting Fan Yao, Wuji admitted: "If I haven't learned Taiji Sword, I would not be able to defeat this person."

9. On Snake Island, when fighting the Persians, Wuji was struck by the Moon Messenger repeatedly. Wuji was not able to block her attacks, and if it wasn't for his Nine Yang energy protecting his body, his wrist would have been broken.

10. During the fight, Wuji (who was already armed with Heaven Sword) got Dragon Saber from his Godfather, while the Persians used the Holy Fire Scepters. Wuji thought: "Lucky enough that I immediately disarmed one of them at the beginning of the fight. If all three of them were armed, I might not be able to withstand their attacks."

11. Wuji suffered a few blows from the Moon Messenger, containing Penetrating Bone Needle power. Wuji almost got disarmed by the Persians, and had to use both Taiji and the highest level of Qiankun Danuoyi to retrieve the weapon.

12. Eventually, Wuji and the Persians got into a stalemate where Wuji had to withstand multiple attacks from the Penetrating Bone Needle and will surely lose. Golden Lion King had to intervene to save him.

13. Wuji asked the Persians to stop the fight and foolishly retracted his internal power. The Persians then attacked with full power and almost killed Wuji, but lucky for him Zhao Min's kamikaze attack saved the day.

14. In the end, Xiaochao translated the inscriptions on the Holy Fire Scepters. Wuji then learned the complete martial arts system of his opponents and FINALLY he was able to defeat them.

15. When facing the 24 Tibetan Monks, Wuji was struck down by the Xuanming Elders.

16. At Songshan Mountain, Wuji tried to stop Zhou Zhiruo from killing Zhao Min but he got cut by her knife instead.

17. At the Heroes Meeting of Shaolin, ZHou Zhiruo and Wuji had to fight the Three Shaolin Divine Monks. Knowing that ZHou Zhiruo's skills were in fact mediocre, Wuji used the Holy Fire Art to confuse his opponents. Wuji then almost died of insanity.

18. At the end of the novel, Wuji could only handle the Xuanming Elders with the highest level of Qiankun Danuoyi.

1. He had to defeat Kong Zhi w/o Shaolin losing face. He was in a "resolve the misunderstanding" mode, not "I want to kill you" mode. He believed he would've easily killed Kong Zhi quite early in the fight. So Dragon Claws was completely unnecessary.

2. Well, Huang YaoShi couldn't break through the Big Dipper Formation despite being a much better fighter than the 7 Quan Zhen Priests. I've never heard this being a strike against him as a "good fighter". Fighting against formations are a totally different thing. Even JY mentioned that the formation is inherently a superior form of martial arts compared to QKDNY. It's just that the Hua Shan/Kun Lun fighters couldn't comprehend all of it.

3. Consider ZWJ's lack of experience, lack of a mentor to teach him the intricates of fighting, and lack of a sword technique, facing the most powerful sword in the world... How could anyone be expected to understand the method to go against Mie Jue? To think that Guo Jing would somehow fare better would be ludicrous. Even with that being the case, ZWJ actually had a chance to defeat Mie Jue early in their fight. But ZWJ lacked the experience to follow up.

4. Well, he needed to use Wu Dang kung fu at the time because he was a Wu Dang representative. Besides, he couldn't defeat Ah San with just Tachi. He had to resort to QKDNY a bit.

5. Same as above. Not to mention the fact that he did not know a sword technique before then.

6. For one thing, they were the Xuan Ming Elders. Also, he didn't expect them, and wasn't prepared. Besides, they matched inner powers IIRC. So how "good" you are at fighting doesn't exactly apply here.

7. So. Didn't GJ also received many pointers throughout LOCH? Not sure how this should count against him. Otherwise, we might as well make the fight between 10yr old GJ against 10 yr old ZWJ.

8. Considering Tachi sword was his FIRST sword art, what's wrong with this statement? Guo Jing couldn't do jack before he learnt his first powerful palm technque either.

9-12. As JY pointed out, the Persian fighters used a special inner power which allowed them to concentrate it, making it thin as a needle. That's how they penetrated ZWJ's 9 Yang. They also fought incredibly in cohesion, basically as a formation. See my previous statement about going against formations.

If ZWJ is a "lesser fighter" because he couldn't defeat the 'inferior' Persians, then so should Purple Robed Dragon King. She was beaten quickly in a few moves against the same 'inferior' fighters, where as ZWJ fought to a near draw. The Wu Dang Heroes should be worst fighters in the world, because they were quickly dispatched by a "bad fighter" in ZWJ, using a "gimmicky technique" with the Persian kung fu.

13. So he fell for a trap. Since there are times when GJ fell into traps(and many times he would've fallen for traps had HR not been by his side), does this make GJ a bad fighter too?

15. So now ZWJ is expected to take on 26 fighters?

Ok... I'm too tired to respond to the rest. Honestly, I don't see how these examples show that he's a "Bad" fighter. He went through the normal progressions. He was inexperienced at first, and gradually gained experience throughout the novel. Until he reached his peak fighting against the Evil-Capturing Formation of the three Shaolin Elders. Guo Jing also went through the same progressions, until his peak in LOCH against Huang YaoShi/Hong QiGong. If ZWJ is to be ridiculed, it's his attitude towards the use of kung fu. Unless fighting the Mongols, he always thought of it as a means to save people or solve problems. Not as a tool to harm others.

I do agree that Guo Jing is a better fighter at the end of ROCH, simply due to his experience and perhaps better inner power cultivation. ZWJ is hardly a pushover like you imply.

[Ren Wo Xing]

In the beginning of ROCH, Guo Jing managed to, in effect, smash his way through a HUGE Tian Gang Bei Do Zhen at Chong Yang Palace. So 24 monks and formations aren't that unreasonable

On a more serious note, Meh, ZWJ probably isn't a pushover...but like you said, he was similar to the GJ in progression of martial arts ability...during LOCH. The GJ at the end of ROCH would have pancaked him.

[QF]

In the beginning of ROCH, Guo Jing managed to, in effect, smash his way through a HUGE Tian Gang Bei Do Zhen at Chong Yang Palace. So 24 monks and formations aren't that unreasonable

Ah....That is different. Don't forget that in LOCH GJ knows how the Big dipper is form. Yes, the ROCH Mega Big Dipper might be bigger and more deadlier, but the concept is still the same. GJ can see the weakness right through, because he already has a good foundation of the big dipper. Heck, he can even use the big dipper by himself!

As to who would win in a fight between GJ and ZWJ, I would go for GJ, just because I think GJ is more of a well rounded fighter.



QF

[Meh]

On a more serious note, Meh, ZWJ probably isn't a pushover...but like you said, he was similar to the GJ in progression of martial arts ability...during LOCH. The GJ at the end of ROCH would have pancaked him.

Yes, the progression might be similar, but not with internal power. ZWJ's internal power, full 9 Yang boosted by Cheng Kun bursting the ballon and raised to the peak with QKDNY, at the end of HSDS is comparable to any of the top fighters at the end of ROCH. GJ had a long way to go at the end of LOCH.

So GJ's only advantage is his experience and perhaps better technique(18 Dragon Palms against Taichi). Definitely enough for a win, but not a convincing one.

[linghuchong]

Originally posted by minutemanwayne
An 18 year old Guo Jing managed to learn 15 Dragon Subdueing Palms within a month. Even Hong Qi Gong was shocked at the speed with which he learned. He came up with a new set of martial arts by looking at tree branches and even used YiYang Zhi against OuYang Feng after watching YiDeng display the move once. That takes alot of talent in itself.

Did he come up with a new set of martial arts of 18 subdueing palms from praticing on the braches, i thought he didnt change it till he mixed in some 9 yin with dragon subdueing palm???
And did he really dispay YYZ against AYF like in Loch 03, if he did, then what use does that make?
He knows nothing about YYZ except from seeing it in action once (not even that, just used to cure HR), i mean surely thats justs like faking it, to use a move without knowing anything about it? Or did he mix some 9yin to just make it look good??

Someone fill me in

[Ren Wo Xing]

To be honest, Meh, I sort of look at it just like Xiao Feng vs Xu Zhu. Sure, ZWJ might have great techniques and great internal energy...but I can't shake the feeling that GJ would just mop him off the floor.

[Han Solo]

Originally posted by minutemanwayne
An 18 year old Guo Jing managed to learn 15 Dragon Subdueing Palms within a month. Even Hong Qi Gong was shocked at the speed with which he learned. He came up with a new set of martial arts by looking at tree branches and even used YiYang Zhi against OuYang Feng after watching YiDeng display the move once. That takes alot of talent in itself.

That is a misconception. GJ imitated YiYang finger, without actually learning it or displaying it's power. OYF got scared and took off.

[Dirt]

Yeah, but how long before ZWJ figures out how to use 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms?

[superboy]

You can't learn HL18Z just by looking on it. You can fake the external moves, but not the internal energy the type of internal energy it produces.

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by Meh
Consider ZWJ's lack of experience, lack of a mentor to teach him the intricates of fighting, and lack of a sword technique, facing the most powerful sword in the world... Ok... I'm too tired to respond to the rest. Honestly, I don't see how these examples show that he's a "Bad" fighter. He went through the normal progressions. He was inexperienced at first, and gradually gained experience throughout the novel. Until he reached his peak fighting against the Evil-Capturing Formation of the three Shaolin Elders. Guo Jing also went through the same progressions, until his peak in LOCH against Huang YaoShi/Hong QiGong.

I do agree that Guo Jing is a better fighter at the end of ROCH, simply due to his experience and perhaps better inner power cultivation. ZWJ is hardly a pushover like you imply.

I did not imply that Wuji is a pushover, I already stated that he is a great martial artist. But I do believe that he is not a good fighter, or maybe it would be better to say that his fighting skills do not match his martial arts level.

People often state the fact that Wuji did not receive proper martial arts tutoring, that he lacked experience etc. That is true of course, I do realise that... But that does not change the fact that he is lousy when it comes to actual combat. When we compare him with other characters:

Guo Jing
1. After reaching a certain level of Quanzhen internal cultivation, Guo Jing could hold his own against the Four Ghosts of Yellow River. He still managed to defend himself when the four of them attacked them together, though he could not defeat them all at the same time and would eventually lose.

2. In Beijing, Guo Jing fought one-on-one with Yang Kang who had received much better tutoring and had better martial arts techniques than himself, and Guo Jing still managed to draw.

3. At Guihun Manor, Guo Jing fought against Mei Chaofeng (who was clearly the superior fighter) but eventually even got the upperhand.

This was all before he learned the complete Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms. Did he got help during these fights? Yes, he did. Did he receive pointers? Yes he did. And after he completed the 18 Palms, he also learned Zhou Botong's martial arts and Nine Yin. But please note that Guo Jing had to fight superior opponents like Qiu Qianren and Ouyang Feng, whose mastery of techniques and internal power were all better than him. Against others, Guo Jing had no problem handling them whatsoever.

Yang Guo
1. At the Heroes Meeting, Yang Guo managed to defeat Huodu, whose internal power was mcuh higher than his.

2. Yang Guo also defeated and hypnotized Daerba, who was even a more fearsome fighter than Huodu.

3. After learning the sonnets of Dog Hitting Staff from Huang Rong, Yang Guo went to fight against Golden Wheel Monk himself.

4. In Loveless Valley, Gongsun Zhi used his full power to kill Yang Guo but failed.

This was all before he learned the Heavy Ironsword, before he reached martial arts greatness. Did he got help during these fights? Yes, he did. Did he receive pointers? Yes he did. But please note that Yang Guo had to fight superior opponents whose internal power were all better than him.

Linghu Chong
1. In his first fight in the novel, Linghu Chong took on Tian Boguang and won (through wits).

2. After learning Dugu Nine Swords, Linghu Chong beat Cheng Buyou. He then lost his internal power and virtually became a sick, handicapped man, but still he fought:

- Reverend Fangsheng
- the Four Friends of Jiangnan
- Ren Woxing

And he managed to defeat:

- Cong Buqi
- Feng Buping
- the fifteen masked men
- Yi Guoxin of Shaolin
- Tan Diren of Kunlun
- Hou Renxiong and two other Qingcheng students
- Twelve Sun & Moon Sect members
- Priest Tianyi of Taishan
- Yue Hou, Great YinYang Palm of Songshan

All the above-mentioned persons had higher power than Linghu Chong before the latter learned Xixing Dafa.

Ok... I'm too tired to give other examples. Honestly, I just don't see how Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Linghu Chong or other heroes would get into so much trouble during fights like Zhang Wuji did.

Apart from Zhang Sanfeng, Zhang Wuji had the highest internal power during the HSDS era and he also learned the most powerful martial arts which existed at that time. Yet he NEVER defeated his opponents (who were all inferior to him individually martial arts-wise) with ease, he ALWAYS had to use a lot of time and effort.

That's why I believe Wuji to be a lousy fighter. He lacks the perseverance of Guo Jing, the wits of Yang Guo and Linghu Chong's ability to adapt to the situation.

[linghuchong]

Originally posted by superboy
You can't learn HL18Z just by looking on it. You can fake the external moves, but not the internal energy the type of internal energy it produces.

Yeah, but ZWJ only mananged to do that after learning QKDNY, what skill does GJ have to do that? Or was he totally faking the whole idea of 1YZ?

[CFT]

Originally posted by Han Solo
That is a misconception. GJ imitated YiYang finger, without actually learning it or displaying it's power. OYF got scared and took off.

Just like Guo Xiang when she fought against reverend Wu Se at Shaolin. One of the moves she used was 1YZ; what was special with the move was that 3 accu-points could be hit with one strike. Of course she was faking it, but Wu Se backed off.

Like father like daughter, eh?

[shadow8899]

based on Athena's translation, GX actually learned the 1 Yang Finger she used from one of the Wu brothers.

[Meh]

Laviathan: If you want to judge how good ZWJ is as a fighter at the end of HSDS, the 3 fights against the Shaolin Elders' Evil-Ensnaring Formation are the fights to look at. Anything before can be attributed to the fact that he's still not at his peak.

I was personally ZWJ's in-battle skills and adjustments in those fights. There was nothing that JY wrote which suggest that ZWJ's innate ability was higher than his fighting skills. In fact, he had the ability to meld QKDNY, taichi, and to an extent the persian kung fu together effortlessly at this time. This means he's already learnt each one to near perfection. His taichi would still likely be less powerful than ROCH Guo Jing's Dragon Palms, but probably not by much.

[Laviathan]

If you want to judge how good ZWJ is as a fighter at the end of HSDS, the 3 fights against the Shaolin Elders' Evil-Ensnaring Formation are the fights to look at.

Okay, then we will look at his three fights against the Diamond Taming Demon Circle.

When Wuji was attacked by the Three Monks' ropes, the first thing he did was panick ËûÏÈÇ°¼ûÀ¥ÂØÅÉËÄ´ó¸ßÊÖת˲¼ä±ãÃüÉ¥ÈýÌõºÚË÷֮ϣ¬±ã ÖªÕâÈý¼þÆæÒì±øÈÐÀ÷º¦Ö®¼«£¬´Ë¿ÌÉíµ±ÆäÄÑ£¬¸üÊÇÐľª¡£ (he saw how the four experts of Kunlun died by these ropes) and then tried to ward of the ropes. He then used Qiankun Danuoyi combined with Nine Yang to fly into the air and made a summersault. The Three Monsk have used three strokes and 9 techniques, each with tens of variations, yet Wuji could ward of the attacks using Qiankun Danuoyi, Nine Yang and Taiji combined, and the jump into the air was a movement from the Persian Holy Fire Art. But in doing so, Zhang Wuji had used all of his strength... his internal energy was now completely messed up and he needed time to recover.

When the real fight starts, the more Wuji fought the more scared he became ËûÔ½¶·Ô½ÊÇÐľª At first he defended for 70% and his attacks made up the other 30%, yet eventually he had to use all of his effort to defende himself. He also started to feel his internal power was lacking and unpure, something he never encountered before. He then wanted to get out of the circle and seek the help of the other Ming cultists, yet he failed to do so.. So he freaked out (AGAIN) ËûÐÄÏ´ó¾ª. He lost his confidence completely at this point and thought to himself: "Even if I get the help of Yang Xiao, Grandfather and others, we will probably still fail to break through the barrier of the monks. Does this mean God father will not be saved, and I will die here today?" ÄѵÀÎÒÒ常ÖÕÓÚÎÞ·¨¾È³ö£¬ÎÒ½ñÈÕÒªÃüÉ¥´ËµØ£¿Because he lost his concentration, his shoulder got hit by one of the monks and he suffered pain to the bone. In the end, Yuanzhen suddenly appeared and Wuji, unprepared for a sudden attack (as always), almost got a knife through his heart.

In the second fight, Wuji got help from Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng. In the novel, we only see how Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng fought against the Three Monks, it was almost like Wuji did not exist during this part. The only thing we know is that wuji used his internal power to compete with the monks, while Yang Xiao and Grandfather Yin launched attacks.

In the third fight, Wuji wanted to make Zhou ZHiruo look good and immediately used Holy Fire Art and almost died of insanity. Later on, he used Nine Yang frontal attack to fight with the monks. Jin Yong tells us that his internal power is much higher than the three monks and will eventually win, yet Wuji thought: "Today I will probably lose again" ÎÒ¶ÀÁ¦ÄÑÖ§£¬¿´À´½ñÈÕÓÖÒª
Âä°ÜÁË¡£Õâ´ÎÔپȲ»³öÒ常£¬ÄDZãÈçºÎÊǺã¿And lost his concentration and the monks could counterattack again. In the end, Wuji used all his effort to get into the center of the circle to save Xie Xun, but ended up in a stalemate with the three monsk and had to compete internal power again.

Does Wuji's martial arts level impress me? Yes, it does. Does Wuji's fighting skills impress me? No, certainly not.

Zhang Wuji always makes the wrong decisions during fights: when he fights opponents with superior technique/formation, he freaks out and try to counter their techniques instead of overwhelming his opponents with his superior inner strength. When facing the 24 Tibetan Monks, he KNOWS that no matter how high is internal energy is he would never be able to withstand the power of 24 experts, yet he still got himself into a situation where he competed in internal power instead of trying to beat those monks with superior techniques.

[superboy]

I think I agree with Laviathan. I certainly learned alot about ZMK today. He got pretty good martial arts, but not a very skilled fighter.