6MSJ and six neglected elites

[Ren Wo Xing]

While rereading (and watching) TLBB, I was reminded of the six monks of the Celestial Dragon Temple (Tien Long Si). They had each mastered one sword of the Six Meridian swords, and were (even before learning them) highly trained fighters; one of them, for example, Duan Zhenming, was roughly on the same level as Duan Yanqing.

In the battle at Shaolin late in the book, Duan Yu defeated Murong Fu with only one sword of the Six Meridian swords...which was exactly how much each of the six monks knew. This, in my opinion, directly implies that each of the six monks were at -least- above the level of Murong Fu; considering how much more martial arts expertise (and fighting experience in general) they had than Duan Yu, it's conceivable that they could be ranked amongst the top of the top, behind only a very, very few people.

Incidentally, considering again that all six of them using Six Meridian Swords together were only able to stalemate a single Jiu Mozhi, is once again an indication of how far behind the true 'Master hands' of TLBB Murong Fu is.

[TristeCoeur]

While I think that MRF sucks in all departments, your reasoning is just.... crazy Yeah the monks can use 6MSJ but their inner power is light years behind Duan Yu's. DY's 1 sword is enough to push JMZ back and totally shock him while JMZ was able to handle these 6 monks' 6 swords with ease.

Remember that when DY was fighting MRF, he was "high" and fought a hundred times better than usual ^_^

[Arching_Hero]

Halo, can anyone tell me wat type of kungfu Six Meridian Swords (6MSJ) and how powerful is it??

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Arching_Hero
Halo, can anyone tell me wat type of kungfu Six Meridian Swords (6MSJ) and how powerful is it??

6 Mak Divine Swords (AKA Six Meridian Swords) is, in the most simplistic terms, the ultimate developmental form of 1 Yeung Finger Technique . . . a kind of 1 Yeung Finger "Plus", if you will. In basic operation, it is very similar to regular 1 Yeung Finger Technique (in fact, mastering 1 Yeung Finger Technique *first* before learning 6 Mak Divine Swords is highly recommended; one of the reasons why Deun Yu's 6 Mak Divine Swords was so undependable was because he never trained in regular 1 Yeung Finger Technique), but far more powerful. 6 Mak Divine Swords has been described as the expression of 1 Yeung Finger's chi energy in the form of sword chi: 6 Mak Divine Swords' chi energy shoots out of the user's finger like a sword of chi energy.

Some authorities regard 6 Mak Divine Swords as the most advanced martial art in the entire Jin Yong canon.

[GunSharp]

How does Duan Yu even have inner power anyways? Is it all from that one skill that can capture inner power from other people?

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by GunSharp
How does Duan Yu even have inner power anyways? Is it all from that one skill that can capture inner power from other people?

Yep. Via the use of Bak Ming Sun Gung, Deun Yu was able to leech inner power from a number of people.

[rabadi]

Could someone please give a brief summary of the fight between JMZ and the 6 monks?

[Han Solo]

JMZ is one heck of a paradox in DGSD.

MRF could not even avoid getting his swords and sabers getting blasted into pieces by DY's 6MSJ and had to stand at least 10 feet to avoid being totally defeated, while JMZ not only managed to avoid any form of injury, but could launch attacks that ultimately "stalemate" the 6 monks at the Celestial Dragon Temple.

What is it that JMZ have that MRF didn't?

[eaglescliff]

There is no paradox.

1.) JMZ was better than MRF in any case

2.) DY was way better (internal strength-wise and that matters a great deal when it comes to 6msj) than the 6 monks.

3.) DY "learnt" all the 6 swords whereas the 6 monks only knew parts of the whole.

[Suet Seung]

Can someone tell me who JMZ is?

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Suet Seung
Can someone tell me who JMZ is?

Kau Mor Tze was a powerful Lama Buddhist from Tibet and the Imperial Minister of the Tubo (Turfan) Kingdom. He had great martial arts skills (rivaling those of Kiu Fung). His ambition was to learn Dali's 6 Mak Divine Swords and Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging.

[Arching_Hero]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
Kau Mor Tze was a powerful Lama Buddhist from Tibet and the Imperial Minister of the Tubo (Turfan) Kingdom. He had great martial arts skills (rivaling those of Kiu Fung). His ambition was to learn Dali's 6 Mak Divine Swords and Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging.

Dali's 6 Mak Divine Swords and Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging. So did he learned this two kungfu?

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Arching_Hero
Dali's 6 Mak Divine Swords and Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging. So did he learned this two kungfu?

No, he never did. He was never able to obtain Yik Gun Ging, and forcing himself to learn 6 Mak Divine Swords ultimately cost him *all* his martial arts.

[TristeCoeur]

Correction: forcing himself to learn only the techniques of the 72 Shaolin arts and Yi Jin Jing costed him all of his martial arts, and almost his life, if Duan Yu weren't there to suck him dry .

[Han Solo]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
No, he never did. He was never able to obtain Yik Gun Ging, and forcing himself to learn 6 Mak Divine Swords ultimately cost him *all* his martial arts.

The Yi Jin Jing that was in YTZ's possession fell into the hand of JMZ.

Edit: My question above was mainly to find out if there was something special with JMZ's technique that enables him to first contain the power of the 6MSJ of the 6 monks, and then to overcome it. Any takers?

[Ian Liew]

My guess is that it wasn't so much JMZ being brilliant - I believe DY could have torn him apart as easily as he did MRF if he faced him at that same level. The problem probably lay with the six monks.

DY had an immense advantage over the six monks. Firstly, he learnt all six swords, while each of the six monks only learnt one sword each. Secondly, the six monks devoted a lot of time and energy to study the concepts behind each individual sword, and had to try and fathom and understand how each sword worked. DY, under the protection and tutelage of the monk Humu, sat down and watched as each monk launched his attack. As each monk used the sword he trained with, Humu revealed the relevant scroll for DY to study, and by reading the scroll and at the same time watching what the six monks had already achieved, DY had a very very advanced platform of knowledge with which to further develop the Six Meridian Swords. For instance, when Humu launched his Shaoshang sword from his right thumb, and then from his left thumb, DY realised that this particular sword could be used with both thumbs. JMZ also did him the favour of attacking a single monk, Ben Shen, first, and DY had a good look at the Shaoja sword from the left little finger. Then when Ben Huan's Zhongchong sword was launched from his middle finger he was allowed the luxury of studying the movements, the stances, at the same time reading the correct scroll and fathoming the entire principle behind the scroll. Basically, he benefitted from the hard work the six monks put into developing their swords, and he got them all.

Another reason why the six monks seemed quite helpless against JMZ is that since they learnt a finger each, they could put forth a sword formation against JMZ. However, 6MSJ was never meant to be a sword formation, so it doesn't allow the monks to cover each others weaknesses, keep the opponent within the confines of the formation and maintain the strength of the formation in the same way the Big Dipper formation of Quanzhen sect, the Zhenwu Qizi formation of Wudang or the 18 Lohan formation of Shaolin could. When JMZ charged in straight at them they couldn't stop him, and couldn't rely on 6MSJ to fight anymore, as a single sword was not going to be a match for him.


Tha's just my guess, and based heavily on the comicbook interpretation of the Tian Long Temple battle. Sorry if it's off with regard to the book. =)


Ian

[Han Solo]

Thanks Ian.

Further Q: If DY with what is basically only one sword out of the 6MSJ can contain MRF, why can't the monks with JMZ by just relying only on their one sword?

[Ren Wo Xing]

I think all of you are seriously underestimating those monks. Remember, Duan Zhenming was the equal of Duan Yanqing BEFORE he learned 6MSJ; I really don't think that after learning one sword of 6MSJ, that he wouldn't have vast improvements. And how would you compare DYQ to MRF?

Yes, I do believe DY had a considerably stronger amount of internal energy, but not really THAT much; after all, he didn't even have enough internal energy for his Bei Ming Zhen Qi to work properly; when he was struck by MRF and JMZ at Shaolin, he was wounded. Now, against this factor is weighed two things; first, his nearly complete lack of battle experience, which the monks had. Second, his lack of knowledge of YYZ, which forms the basis of 6MSJ, and is normally considered a prerequisite for learning it. While it's possible that his knowledge of the workings of 6MSJ were greater than that of the monks, I somewhat dispute that as well; DY was no martial arts genius, to fully comprehend much of ANYTHING just by looking at it, not to mention, he was rushing slightly, reading during a battle, whereas the monks had been practicing their respective swords quietly for some time before the battle. I believe that his understanding of 6MSJ overall is probably greater, but in each individual finger, I think his knowledge is lesser. And it was in the power of a single finger that he slapped around MRF.

[superboy]

But DY's 6MSJ individually probably have more power than the 6 Monks. As the 6 Monks was having trouble with KMJ, DY's finger alone was able to push him away. DY's internal energy and finger chi could be several times stronger than the Monks. They were only able to use one finger each, while DY can learn 6 at once.

[TristeCoeur]

DY was no martial arts genius

Wrong. He is. Who else can learn Bei Ming Shen Gong (although just a bit) and Ling Bo Wei Bo in such a short period of time, same with 6MSJ ? Also, remember that when he learnt LBWB, he barely had any internal energy.

after all, he didn't even have enough internal energy for his Bei Ming Zhen Qi to work properly; when he was struck by MRF and JMZ at Shaolin, he was wounded. Now, against this factor is weighed two things

Dude, apart from the Sweeper Monk and Xu Zhu, anyone would be wounded by JMZ's strike. Xu Zhu had about 3 times more inner energy than JMZ that's why he's not hurt.

When MRF hit him, that was right on his face. Of course he would bleed. Apart from Sweeper Monk, I doubt anyone else could have qi protection on his face Also, if DY didn't have very high inner power, that strike would have smashed his head.

While it's possible that his knowledge of the workings of 6MSJ were greater than that of the monks

I don't think that's the case. It's more like Duan Yu subconciously understood the swords and how to use them, but he didn't have much knowledge of martial arts to keep his inner energy flow to wherever it's needed. Therefore when he's not excited enough , his inner energy flow would be stuck somewhere and the swords would not be formed.

Again, what's so hard to understand that because of DY's insanely high inner power (just behind Sweeper Monk and Xu Zhu), MRF could not counter his single sword ?

Oh and by the way, DY didn't actually use a single sword. What XF told him was to concentrate on one sword, then slowly switch to another, but not to alternate between them randomly. So what DY did then was to use Shaoshang sword from his thumb for a while, then after a couple dozen strikes, switched to his index finger, then middle finger etc. If JMZ were in that position, he would be the same as MRF. Even XF couldn't think of anyway to counter DY's swords.

Remember, Duan Zhenming was the equal of Duan Yanqing BEFORE he learned 6MSJ;

He was, but it doesn't mean that the other monks were at the same level as him.

Further Q: If DY with what is basically only one sword out of the 6MSJ can contain MRF, why can't the monks with JMZ by just relying only on their one sword?

If these monks could combine their 5-6 swords into one (ie at DY's level), JMZ wouldn't have a chance. However, their individual swords were not strong enough.