Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

[superboy]

Even without the advancer martial arts, they still seem to be a lot more superior. I think QF is just far more talented as a martial arts trainer than almost anyone in JY's novel.

[CC]

Originally posted by PJ
[BIn both cases, we saw how GJ and XF deal with stronger opponents. GJ effectively dealt with his opponent, while XF resorted to raw force.

This sentence from Laviathan sums up what I'm trying to say: From an martial artist' point of view, Guo Jing's style can be considered better, but that doesn't mean that in actual combat Guo Jing can defeat Xiao Feng. I believe XF DOES have more power. If the two fought, XF will gain upperhand at first, but GJ's versatile style will enable him to effectively overcome raw force, as he has demonstrated ability to match stronger oppoents. [/B]

Ok, I was trying to keep out of this topic or I'll end up wasting so much time at the keyboards. But I'll have to step into to defend the reputation of Xiao Feng here!

I think it is wrong to keep thinking of Xiao Feng as 'hard yang, full power blast hit hard as you can fast as you can only'. He fought like that many times in the book because that was his personality. Xiao Feng kicks a s s and he kicks it _fast_and_hard_ because that is his style. But that should _not_ imply that his tactics and skills are limited thus.

e.g. He could grab onto the power of an incoming strike, combine it with his own, and throw the combined power at another opponent.

He could also intercept a projectile (not aimed at him and from long distance) using long distance energy manipulation and cause the said projectile to _reverse_ course back at the attacker.


Ok I never read all of JY's books. So could anyone point out _any_ other fighter in JY world who did similar feats to the above 2 illustrations?

[Noodles]

Well, with the projectile example, Yang Guo did something similar (I emphasise on the word similar here, okay guys) when he killed Ni Mo Xing by deflecting a projectile that Guo Xiang threw in midair.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by Han Solo
I will surely get flamed for saying this.

I think your right on this statement. lol
The rest I disagree in part.

I admit that the Xiao Feng is several time stronger than Greats. But Xiao Feng being stronger than Guo Jing have no evidences.

We only saw Guo Jing in 30s fought only twice one against Ou Yang Feng and the battle at the mongolian camp. Those two battle is not enough to show how strong he really is or what technique that he might process that we don't know. It also seem that those two battle have condition where he cannot use his max also. Against Ou Yang Feng he was worry about the house collapsing on the people and the battle at the mongolian camp he was worry about Yang Guo and sacrificed himself to allow Yang Guo to escape. Who knows he might be able to beat them all at once.

[PJ]

Ken Cheng: Keep in mind In DGSD no one in the family reached the highest level of 1 Yeung finger, in ROCH Duan Zhixing did reach the "highest" level. It's fair to assume if Duan Zhengming reached the highest level, he could be one of DGSD Greats.

GJ is my favorite character, but I have no problem amitting he's weaker than QF.

Ha, and Xiao Feng is just about my favorite character; I don't even like GJ , but let's continue to give credit where it's due.

It's true that Xiao Feng can injure much weaker opponents from long distance, such as Ding Chunqiu and Yun Zhonghe. Ding's arms would have broken and he could even suffer body injury. However, when he attacked Murong Buo from about the same distance, he was only able to send a shock through MRB's arms, probably about the same pain that You Tanzhi sent to Xiao Feng (I'm making an assumption here). So, I doubt XF can injure a good warrior like GJ. I am going to assume GJ vs Xiao Feng would be a similar scenario to XF vs YTZ+MRF. I can only imagine GJ having a easier time with his stronger opponent. Also, GJ *surely* would have increased power in those 16 or so years.

I wish we still had the topic Ultimate ranking in the JY universe. There were some great discussions in there about, what do you know, GJ vs Xiao Feng. ANYONE HAVE A REPRODUCTION OF THAT THREAD?

[Battosai]

Originally posted by PJ
Ken Cheng: Keep in mind In DGSD no one in the family reached the highest level of 1 Yeung finger, in ROCH Duan Zhixing did reach the "highest" level. It's fair to assume if Duan Zhengming reached the highest level, he could be one of DGSD Greats.

But we've no idea if it's the same YYZ from DGSD. YJJ of SOD certainly wasn't the same YJJ of DGSD, so there's no guarantee that Yi Deng's YYZ is comparable to DGSD.

XF vs GJ:

XF hands down. No match in a real fight. This doesn't necessarily mean XF's neigong or techniques were better than GJ's; I'm not sure but XF was a born warrior who could overcome superior techniques and neigong through sheer genius. I think XF is JY's Chu or LXF. In terms of techniques, I actually think GJ was superior, as Xian Tian Gong was a powerful neigong foundation and the 9Yin zhen Qi further solidified his neigong. XF, on the other hand, was less concerned about neigong cultivation and it wasn't as pure as 9Yin zhen Qi in any case.

However, I think there's no comparison when it comes to application. GJ was a powerful fighter but he was no tactical genius; heck, he can't even compare to LHC or YG, let alone XF. GJ had problems with intelligent opponents or intelligent formations, whereas I don't think XF was ever stumped because of some formation tricks or enemy intelligence. In fact, I think LHC at the end of SOD can kill GJ, though not YG.

I wish we still had the topic Ultimate ranking in the JY universe. There were some great discussions in there about, what do you know, GJ vs Xiao Feng. ANYONE HAVE A REPRODUCTION OF THAT THREAD?

I don't think it'd be that helpful. IIRC, there weren't that much disagreements over Lav's rankings and what disagreements there were degenerated into flame wars towards the end.

Also, Lav himself has said his rankings had radically changed. For example, Shi Potian was much lower in the rankings than now. Today, Lav puts SPT right below the monk, I think.

[TigerWong]

Originally posted by Battosai
I don't think it'd be that helpful. IIRC, there weren't that much disagreements over Lav's rankings and what disagreements there were degenerated into flame wars towards the end.

Also, Lav himself has said his rankings had radically changed. For example, Shi Potian was much lower in the rankings than now. Today, Lav puts SPT right below the monk, I think.

There was much more intense debate regarding Lav's rankings over at the JY discussion forum. Maybe you can still find it as they archive most of their stuff there.

I don't believe Lav's ranking on SPT ever changed. It had always been up there.

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by Battosai
In fact, I think LHC at the end of SOD can kill GJ, though not YG.

Trick does give Guo Jing trouble, but it is not enough to beat him. During the 2nd Wah Shan Luen Kim Tournament, HYS and H7K used some trick but it wasn't enough to beat him. If it did work why couldn't they just used tricks in the last 20-10 stances to beat him within 300 stances.

[superboy]

Actually, in terms of nei gong or martial arts, I think that QF is superior to GJ. At thirty feet, DCQ wasn't just worrying that his arm would be broken, but even his whole body being smash. It takes an extremely solid foundation of energy and power to do that. Some may argue that it doesn't mean people of the Condor Trilogy cant just because they didn't do it. COME ON!!! There are three series of Condor Trilogy, LOCH, ROCH, and HSDS. If there is not even one example that show they can do something parallel to QF, it's probably becasue they can't. If you see a 300 pound buff guy lift 500 pounds over his head, do you think a short skinny fellow can do that just because he never tried? Probably not because he doesn't have the muscle tissues needed to accomplish the job. Why you think HYS use pebbles to shoot people while people in DGSD like KMJ can flick his finger to do long distant damage using only chi. About only sending a shock to MRB with just one palm from long distant, well, dun. He is at around the level of QF, obviously he won't get smashed. You can't use that to down grade QF.

[superboy]

It's true that Xiao Feng can injure much weaker opponents from long distance, such as Ding Chunqiu and Yun Zhonghe. Ding's arms would have broken and he could even suffer body injury. However, when he attacked Murong Buo from about the same distance, he was only able to send a shock through MRB's arms, probably about the same pain that You Tanzhi sent to Xiao Feng (I'm making an assumption here). So, I doubt XF can injure a good warrior like GJ. I am going to assume GJ vs Xiao Feng would be a similar scenario to XF vs YTZ+MRF. I can only imagine GJ having a easier time with his stronger opponent. Also, GJ *surely* would have increased power in those 16 or so years.

QF at that time seem to be far from using much power at all for that long distant attack on Yun Zhonghe, and Yun Zhonghe was suffering from severe internal injury. It wasn't just a shock pain at all. And it seems to be very unreasonable to use XF vs YTZ+MRF comparing him fighting GJ.

[PJ]

XF was a born warrior who could overcome superior techniques and neigong through sheer genius

You DO realize we're talking about someone who had trouble with You Tanzhi and Murong Fu, someone who would have gotten his *** kicked if his brave little bro Duan Yu didn't interfere. I'd like to see how he was going to overcome that one.

Lav himself has said his rankings had radically changed.

He did?

In any case SPT right now is 2 levels below Mr. Sweeper Monk. SPT =~ Xu Zhu and Dugu Qiubai

About only sending a shock to MRB with just one palm from long distant, well, dun. He is at around the level of QF, obviously he won't get smashed. You can't use that to down grade QF.

No one is downgrading anyone. We're just trying to back up our claims from specific cases. Now look: for those of us that believe GJ =~ XF, it's natural to assume that GJ =~ MRB, and XF's attacks will have roughly the same effect on GJ as on MRB.

Now please excuse me while I dig up more supporting evidence. I am going to shut up until I get more details about some things.

[superboy]

You DO realize we're talking about someone who had trouble with You Tanzhi and Murong Fu, someone who would have gotten his *** kicked if his brave little bro Duan Yu didn't interfere. I'd like to see how he was going to overcome that one.

I think you may be underestimating the two person QF is fighting. It is just that their combination is a killer. MRF with all the techniques that he had learn and YTZ with his crazy internal power and ice poison. It's combination of great techniques+great internal energy+ice poision+2 against one. He was holding his own with the advantage, but knew that he'll get exhausted and lose in long term just like GJ will.

[superboy]

In any case SPT right now is 2 levels below Mr. Sweeper Monk. SPT =~ Xu Zhu and Dugu Qiubai

Some people seems to think that Xu Zhu is stronger than QF. Yes, in an internal energy match, XZ would win by miles. But in actual combat, it's likely that QF will unless it turns into a nei gong competition. You'll see how good QF is if you read some of his fights.

No one is downgrading anyone. We're just trying to back up our claims from specific cases. Now look: for those of us that believe GJ =~ XF, it's natural to assume that GJ =~ MRB, and XF's attacks will have roughly the same effect on GJ as on MRB.

We're arguing about the strength differ of QF and GJ here, so how can you use that as an assumption and say GJ will only feel a shock?

[superboy]

Correction: Just read CC's translation again and found out that QF actually used only 2 "Mighty Dragon Regrets" instread of three from 30 feet when DCQ thought that he was gonna get smashed if he try to match it with his own palms.

[Han Solo]

Originally posted by TaiHan
I think your right on this statement. lol
The rest I disagree in part.

I admit that the Xiao Feng is several time stronger than Greats. But Xiao Feng being stronger than Guo Jing have no evidences.

We only saw Guo Jing in 30s fought only twice one against Ou Yang Feng and the battle at the mongolian camp. Those two battle is not enough to show how strong he really is or what technique that he might process that we don't know. It also seem that those two battle have condition where he cannot use his max also. Against Ou Yang Feng he was worry about the house collapsing on the people and the battle at the mongolian camp he was worry about Yang Guo and sacrificed himself to allow Yang Guo to escape. Who knows he might be able to beat them all at once.

GJ have yet to lose when fighting in the mongolian camp, but will surely lose in the long term. His fighting abilities is impressive but the fact that he was able to draw was due to others fearing him, and not attacking full on. We can estimate that GJ's achievement would not be too much greater than ZBT, YG or Golden Wheel Monk, and this should serve to show his levels.

[Han Solo]

Originally posted by PJ
You DO realize we're talking about someone who had trouble with You Tanzhi and Murong Fu, someone who would have gotten his *** kicked if his brave little bro Duan Yu didn't interfere. I'd like to see how he was going to overcome that one.

I would like to suggest that QF fighting YTZ and MRF together is like fighting two Greats at the same time, which more impressive than most things GJ had done before.

[superboy]

Actually I think that both MRF and YTZ is more powerful than the combination of 2 Greats.

[superboy]

Oh, I was saying MRF+YTZ>2 Greats, not sure about individually MRF or YTZ going against 2 Greats at once. But I think there is still a chance they might not lose, especially with the superior inner strength of YTZ.

[linghuchong]

but exp. and techniques, the greats will win
why dont we look at it this way...XF using all his strenth on his HL18Z against sweeper monk managed 2 get him coughing lood (right?), so if GJ did the same, whatt result would it lead to......?

[linghuchong]

2 = to
lood = blood
****