Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

[superboy]

QF has HL18Z and Dog Beating stick plus other Shaolin skills, so he is not weaker than the Greats in skill. On experience, he beated tons of fighters with more experience then him. I have a feeling people are over estimating the Greats for their reputations without anything to prove they will win against people of DGSD. Not even one parallel feat to compare.

[linghuchong]

i agree, bearing in mind, ppl in DGSDs seem more powerful then condor trilogy heroes
1 thing about GJs weakness compared to XF is that his 18 subdueing palm is not as powerful as the traditional HL18Z

[superboy]

but exp. and techniques, the greats will win
why dont we look at it this way...XF using all his strenth on his HL18Z against sweeper monk managed 2 get him coughing lood (right?), so if GJ did the same, whatt result would it lead to......?

What a great comparison!!!*sarcasm* You're using the Great Sweeper Monk being the most powerful fighter of JY's universe to compare with the Greats, which some of the novel readers think might even be around the level of MRF.

[superboy]

JY now changed that QF were actually using the weaker version HL28Z. Even with that, his power is much stronger then that of HL18Z in the Condor Trilogy that QF and XZ changed to become stronger. So even with the more advanced version, people of L/ROCH is still weaker in that skill.

[PJ]

I promised to shut up until I came to a better conclusion. Well I did spend the last 3 hours reading discussions, but let's get something out of the way:

Originally posted by Han Solo
I would like to suggest that QF fighting YTZ and MRF together is like fighting two Greats at the same time, which more impressive than most things GJ had done before.

I think you may be underestimating the two person QF is fighting. It is just that their combination is a killer. MRF with all the techniques that he had learn and YTZ with his crazy internal power and ice poison. It's combination of great techniques+great internal energy+ice poision+2 against one. He was holding his own with the advantage, but knew that he'll get exhausted and lose in long term just like GJ will.

Well here is the thing: people always talk about XF defeating stronger ppl, but in the only case where I see an example of this, I see no way in which he can win (under normal circumstances).

Also Solo: I would like to point out a flaw in your sentence QF fighting YTZ and MRF together is like fighting two Greats at the same time, which more impressive than most things GJ had done before. Either YTZ or MRF individually would not stand a chance against Xiao Feng - they are much weaker than him, whereas a Great would tie with GJ - they are about the same (although I believe GJ is slightly superior). So a more fair comparison would be 2 lower level fighters such as Huang Rong and Qiu Qianren against Guo Jing.

[Athena]

Originally posted by CC
That is only if you make the assumption that palm enery dissipates linearly (e.g. two 6m strikes equal one 12m strike) and that Xiao Feng used multiple palms _only_ to increase his range. Maybe one single palm of Xiao Feng could have struck out over 20m but he used 3 strikes to increase his power.

BTW, this thread is giving me a migraine. OUCH.

Just for the record :

I think XF > The Greats >= ZWJ

Shi Po Tian certainly looks like #1, but since I hate the way he learnt his skills (the whole idea of learning such power from a poem sucks) I totally disregard Ode To Gallantry in my personal JY world.

Impossible in chapter 41 of DGSD it was mentioned by the author that no matter how powerful one is in martial arts, it is impossible to release energy that can travel more than 17 metres. So your statement that one of Xiao Feng's palm can travel about 20 metres is out of the question.
Secondly there was some belief that Yideng and Jinlun's energies can only travel about 4 metres. Well, I think that is really underestimating them. The battle between reverend Yideng and Jinlun Fawang and the other was Yin Tianzheng and Buddhist monk Dunan.
As I found out the distance between Yideng and Jinlun was about 4 metres but Yin Tianzheng and Dunan was also 4 metres.
However in the part with Yin Tianzheng and Dunan 4 metres was really the limit. Yin and Dunan stayed apart from each for about 4 metres and were still competing palm energies with each other. But Yin and Dunan are nowhere near the levels of Yideng and Jinlun, so the force released from Yin and Dunan can only travel about 4 metres (max.) but Yideng and Jinlun's forces should travel at least more than those mere 4 metres. So we really don't know how far their energy can travel, right?

As for the wiping, imprints part that already has been knocked over by Leviathan with that example from Xiang Wentian.

[superboy]

Well here is the thing: people always talk about XF defeating stronger ppl, but in the only case where I see an example of this, I see no way in which he can win (under normal circumstances).

Also Solo: I would like to point out a flaw in your sentence QF fighting YTZ and MRF together is like fighting two Greats at the same time, which more impressive than most things GJ had done before. Either YTZ or MRF individually would not stand a chance against Xiao Feng - they are much weaker than him, whereas a Great would tie with GJ - they are about the same (although I believe GJ is slightly superior). So a more fair comparison would be 2 lower level fighters such as Huang Rong and Qiu Qianren against Guo Jing.

I think your judgement is getting worst. Do you actually believe that Huang Yung is actually comparable to people like YTZ or MRF? I can guarantee you that YTZ's and MYF's martial art level is WAY better than her. Qiu Qianren won't be their match neither. Ok, can you provide any evidence at all that GJ or anyone of the Condor Trilogy can do the feats in DGSD or something to support that they are up to their level? Seems to me there isn't any. So what are your reasonings for?

[Athena]

I also find (my humble opinion, of course) that using Xuzhu as a comparison is a bit out of focus. We are talking about a person who has three major power boosts in the novel, the amount of accumulated energy of him is incredible. Of course he is able to perform feats that are awesome. It is even debatable whether Xiao Feng himself is capable of performing actions Xuzhu has done here.
For the sake of arguement we should only look at Xiao Feng, Jiu Mozhi, Murong Bo and Xiao Yuanshan.

[superboy]

Make the last sentence of my post "What are your reasonings?" to be correct. Anyway, being able to smash people from 30 feet is out of question for people from the Condor Trilogys.

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by superboy
One example is that he was able to use his palms to smash people like DCQ from 30 feet. It was said if DCQ match palm with that, he'll literally get smash. This seems to be quite impossible in the Condor Trilogy. Prople of the Condor Trilogy don't seem to have such power even at close range.

Anyway, being able to smash people from 30 feet is out of question for people from the Condor Trilogys.

It was NEVER stated in the novel that Ding Chunqiu would get smashed. The novel says Ding's arm would surely break, that's all. And yes, it is out of the question that Condor Trilogy persons can perform such a feat, but neither can Xiao Feng. Sorry to dissapoint you.

In DGSD Chapter 43:

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When Xiao Feng was chasing Murong Bo, the distance between them was several zhangs. From this distance, Xiao Feng's palm power could still reach Murong Bo.

In the same chapter:

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Xiao Feng was chasing Nameless Monk, the distance between them was 2-3 zhang (about 10 meters). Xiao Feng used multiple palm strikes but due to the distance he could NOT hit him.

In ROCH Chapter 37:

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Huang Yaoshi and Yang Guo were several zhangs apart and were exchanging palms.

So in fact, there is no real evidence that Xiao Feng's palm power reaches much farther than the Condor Trilogy Greats. From above-mentioned examples we can see that Xiao Feng's palm power could NOT exceed the distance of 10 meters. The limit of of Xiao Feng's palm power is between 7 - 10 meters, while Golden Wheel Monk and Yideng were exchanging palms at a distance of about 4 meters. But we don't know if this was their limit. Like Athena said, Yin Tianzheng and Dunan's limit was 4 meters, so the limit of both Yideng and Golden Wheel Monk should be above this.

Furthermore, Huang Yaoshi and Yang Guo were exchanging palms at a distance of several zhangs, which also could mean a distance of 7 to 10 meters. The same distance as Xiao Feng.

Look, I have nothing but awe for Xiao Feng's power, but if we only look at the distances (which is something everybody likes to nitpick about apparently) than I must say that I do not see anything conclusive to prove that Xiao Feng is better than Guo Jing.

[eaglescliff]

Agreed, but it must be noted that Xiao Feng couldnt hit Sweeper Monk at a distance of 10m away might not be due so much to the fact that XF couldnt project his force over that distance but rather the fact that he was pursuing the sweeper monk - this has several implications.

Firstly, it is harder to hit a moving target, especially one who was moving at a high speed like the sweeper monk and XF could barely keep up.

Secondly, because XF was trying his best to keep up with the sweeper monk, he arguably could not use full force in his attacks, as compared to if he were in a stationary position.

Thirdly, even if the force reaches the sweeper monk, considering that the sweeper monk's internal strength was far higher than XF's coupled with the fact that the force from XF's strikes would be dissipated by the distance, means that it would likely have no effect on the sweeper monk.

It might be different, if say both XF and the sweeper monk were stationary, and fighting each other.

[Laviathan]

To eaglescliff:

Your assumption is very good, yet in the novel it was stated that Xiao Feng's power struck thin air, it really had nothing to do with Sweeper Monk's forcefield or something. Xiao Feng just could not project his power over that distance. In the case of Xiao Feng versus Murong Bo: Murong Bo was also running, and Xiao Feng was chasing him. In this case Xiao Feng could hit Murong Bo. I take it that during this situation the distance between Xiao Feng and Murong Bo was less than 10 meters.

[hitman]

Well here is the thing: people always talk about XF defeating stronger ppl, but in the only case where I see an example of this, I see no way in which he can win (under normal circumstances).

It is the same case with TSTL where she had the reputation of killing a first rate fighter with one move.Because of this statement many assumes that TSTL and the other 2 Elders of XY Sect should be stronger than XF.One reason I think XF had this reputation was he never tasted defeat.He began to roam the world when he was teenager and assisted Begger Sect to handle many difficult tasks.XF surely at that moment hasn't learned his dragon palms and dog beating stick yet nobody could defeat him.This more or less supports the statement that XF could defeat someone who has stronger martial arts than him.Another thing,XF was considered a rare talent.He could mastered any martial arts quickly and even better than someone who had been doing it for many years.If I remember correctly,XF was suprised at himself that his internal energy has increased despite he hasn't been practising hard.So it is not hard to imagine why XF can beat anyone stronger than him.

I think JY intended to make DGSD fighters to be stronger than other fighers from other eras.It was his intention to write characters despite with superstrong martial arts but they could not escape the same suffering that associates with any normal people.Again not suprising if people found DGSD top fighters to be superstrong if compared to other fighter.

[CC]

OK several things.


Athena : The damable thing is that JY earlier also stated that now matter how powerful the fighter, energy could not be projected more then 20-30 feet. Then in the same chapter, he mentions that the distance is 50 feet.

The only way I can make sense of that is that he was mentioning it from the on-lookers point of view. The 20-30 feet figure came about when the assorted pugilists (mediocre Ju Xian Manor type fodder) were stunned by DCQ's capturing stance over 80 feet. So maybe the 20-30 foot figure was from the POV of the mediocre pugilists. They can't imagine fighters powerful enough to blast over 30 feet (not that they themselves can, they probably cant project 5 inches themselves since they were fodder). The 50 foot figure was mentioned when DCQ was stunned by Xiao Feng's attack range. So maybe the 50 foot figure was from the POV of DCQ (so maybe Wu Ya Zi could blast from 50 feet? giving DCQ that impression). If you asked Sweeper Monk, maybe his answer would be 100 feet?

Lav

Well, it was mentioned that DCQ feared that his whole skeleton would be smashed to fragments if he resisted XF's palm strike. Could GJ or any of the Greats similarly smash a fighter one level lower (e.g. Ni Mo Xing, Huo Du) into broken bones from 30 feet?

It also doesn't make sense that he can hit MRB from several zhang and not be able to strike over 2-3 zhang. Several should be at least 2-3 if not more. JY being inconsistent again I guess. Or there could be other mitigating factors, maybe sweeper wasn't running in a straight line while MRB was (after all, MRB did not realise how stong XF was until he got hit, so he didnt run evasively while sweeper had a better idea).

all else

As for XF vs YTZ/MRF/DCQ. I still think XF would have pulled off a win if the fight dragged. At the point where XF thought he would lose if the fight dragged on and drained him, XF had only started fighting YTZ and did not yet realise YTZ's glaring weakness. After all, XF only just met him (the souped up version anyway)

After XF discovered it later, he basically crippled YTZ in 1 sweep. So if the fight had dragged on, he would most likely have KO'ed YTZ before he drained himself. After he KO's YTZ, he should mop up MRF and DCQ. Just my conjecture.

[superboy]

I think when JY said a person can't transmit internal energy at 20 feet, he might be refering to the only the sucking power that DCQ was faking.

So in fact, there is no real evidence that Xiao Feng's palm power reaches much farther than the Condor Trilogy Greats. From above-mentioned examples we can see that Xiao Feng's palm power could NOT exceed the distance of 10 meters. The limit of of Xiao Feng's palm power is between 7 - 10 meters, while Golden Wheel Monk and Yideng were exchanging palms at a distance of about 4 meters. But we don't know if this was their limit. Like Athena said, Yin Tianzheng and Dunan's limit was 4 meters, so the limit of both Yideng and Golden Wheel Monk should be above this.

Wasn't it stated that QF was 30 feet from DQC, and when he struck his palms he pushed DCQ back another 30 feet? That would make 60 feet. That would mean he is able to do 18 meters or more right? More impressive than anyone in the Condor Trilogy don't you think.

[TaiHan]

well from what Lav said that YG and HYS was striking at several zhang also. The same goes with Xiao Feng who can only strike several zhang.
30ft = 2.7 zhang = 9meter (rounded)
60ft = 5.5 zhang = 18meter (rounded)
So YG and HYS could have been at the same distance. I wouldn't say that the limit is 10 meter for any of them.

But the fact that his power in the strike is remarkable

[Laviathan]

The only way I can make sense of that is that he was mentioning it from the on-lookers point of view.

I think when JY said a person can't transmit internal energy at 20 feet, he might be refering to the only the sucking power that DCQ was faking.

No, it was the author (JIN YONG) talking, and he was talking about PALM POWER.

Wasn't it stated that QF was 30 feet from DQC, and when he struck his palms he pushed DCQ back another 30 feet? That would make 60 feet. That would mean he is able to do 18 meters or more right? More impressive than anyone in the Condor Trilogy don't you think.

My god, did you really think that Xiao Feng just stood there and fired palm power from a distance of 60 feet??? HE WAS MOVING FORWARD, JUMPING AND LEAPING TOWARD DING CHUNQIU TO SAVE AH ZHI. In the end he was 3 to 4 zhang away from Ding and he was still moving! He then fired another (THIRD) Kanglong Youhui. He was pushing, jumping, pushing, jumping and pushing toward Ding, adding more power to his blast. I am convinced that Guo Jing could also do this, maybe not as powerful as Xiao Feng, but the feat can be done.

JY being inconsistent again I guess.

*Sigh* Look, you guys all provide examples of how Xiao Feng is better than Guo Jing, examples out of Jin Yong's book. But when I give examples to prove it wrong, then suddenly what Jin Yong says is not true, he is inconsistent or whatever. So only the info which proves Xiao Feng is better is correct, while the facts given in the novel which does not suit your views are wrong? Then what's the point of discussing?

[CC]

Originally posted by Laviathan
No, it was the author (JIN YONG) talking, and he was talking about PALM POWER.

Well, unless JY was speaking from the POV of the onlookers, I can't understand why the 20 foot figure suddenly became 50 feet in the very same chapter.

[Athena]

That passage in chapter 41 is most confusing.

First of all we should know that Jin Yong writes his novels in the auctorial perspectives, meaning he give his own personal (valid) comments throughout the novel.
That part about not being able to travel more than 17 metres is a comment by Jin Yong which should be accepted.
It is not that that particular part was seen through the eyes of some other character.
We have those too in Jin Yong novels for example HSDS
Example one:Zhang Cuisan was thinking that his teacher Zhang Sanfeng is just a bit better than Xie Xun------> Nonsense of course!
Example two: abbot Tianming thinking that making imprints with one's feet is impossible-------> Wrong, Xiang Wentian (Smiling Proud Wanderer) and Xiao Feng (DGSD) can do it.
Those thoughts are not valid.
However there are some cases where Jin Yong uses certain characters to convey his own thoughts.
But one should always assume the credibility of the comments of the author in his novels.
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Now we should carefully analyse the part where Xiao Feng repells Ding Chunqiu.
It was not that he stood 30 metres away from Ding Chunqiu, he leapt forward, advanced forward and adding amounts of energy to his initial blast. And in the end he was only 10 metres away from Ding.
Anyway it was Ding himself that took precautions and glided another 10 metres away from Xiao Feng.

[PJ]

Very informative analysis from Lav and Athena about Xiao Feng vs DCQ. XF was indeed PUSHING WITH 2 HANDS one palm after another as he MOVED towards DCQ, who at first STOOD still, but then moved back, and once Ding moved back, XF's palms could no longer injure him. Note the important thing: when XF is moving and Ding is still, he could injure him. When both are moving, XF cannot.

I think your judgement is getting worst. Do you actually believe that Huang Yung is actually comparable to people like YTZ or MRF? I can guarantee you that YTZ's and MYF's martial art level is WAY better than her. Qiu Qianren won't be their match neither.

And you misread me. I said YTZ and MRF were so much weaker than XF, whereas the Greats are about the same as GJ, the comparison that YTZ+MRF to XF = 2 Greats to GJ is unfair. Thus, I suggested YTZ and MRF to XF are like HR and QQR to Guo Jing. I never said their power were equal.

I mean if we want to have GJ fight 2 Greats, then have XF fight MRB and XYS to be fair. Get it?