Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

[TaiHan]

I agree with PJ
YTZ and MRF can't be compared to 2 Great. One lacked internal strenght and the other, techniques. While each one of the great have both internal strenght and techniques. So the combination of two Greats will be more internal strenght and techniques.

but comparing to YTZ and MRF to Huang Rung maybe is not a great comparison. Because in Condor Trilogy there is no one at their level, it is either to high or too low. I guess that is why they call HYS, Yi Deng, H7K, and OYF- the greats.

[eaglescliff]

MRF's internal strength wasn't that bad, btw. He may not have internal strength equivalent to what XF or DY possessed, true. But just because he wasn't known to have exceptional internal strength doesn't automatically make his internal strength weak, or make him a lousy fighter. In the novel before he got grabbed from behind by XF it was mentioned his skills were only slightly lower than XF's. I would argue that we do not know how his internal strength measures up to the Greats from LOCH/ROCH.

YTZ's techniques, on the other hand, were horribly lacking, which made him a one-dimensional fighter. Arguably the Greats should be > YTZ because he truly had virtually non-existent technique, but the threat posed by his incredible internal strength could not be denied either. Despite his handicap in terms of technique, he could still equal Ding - and Ding lasted quite a while against Xu Zhu (who I would argue to be, at the stage where he fought Ding, stronger than the Greats).

[CC]

Originally posted by Athena
That passage in chapter 41 is most confusing.

First of all we should know that Jin Yong writes his novels in the auctorial perspectives, meaning he give his own personal (valid) comments throughout the novel.
That part about not being able to travel more than 17 metres is a comment by Jin Yong which should be accepted.

But thats the problem. JY himself said in the very same chapter that the figure was 50 feet.

I am not talking in the context of Xiao Feng (he did not conclusively prove that he could do over 30) but in the context of JY's narrative. So do we accept 20 or 50 as the figure which JY quotes.

[CC]

Originally posted by eaglescliff


YTZ's techniques, on the other hand, were horribly lacking, which made him a one-dimensional fighter. Arguably the Greats should be > YTZ because he truly had virtually non-existent technique, but the threat posed by his incredible internal strength could not be denied either. Despite his handicap in terms of technique, he could still equal Ding - and Ding lasted quite a while against Xu Zhu (who I would argue to be, at the stage where he fought Ding, stronger than the Greats).

YTZ was actually quite sucky. Once Xiao Feng discovered his weakness, he got KO'ed. I think if DCQ or MRF knew of his weaknesses, either of them could have defeated him. e.g. Ding was wary of him because he didn't know who he was, so Ding didn't fight too aggressively.

Ding actually would have been taken out by Xu Zhu really fast. But Xu Zhu could not end the fight because he did not want to kill Ding. Also, Xu Zhu was fearful of Ding's poison but JY noted that it was unneccessary worry because his inner strength would have protected him from Ding's poison in any case.

[PJ]

RE CC: JY inconsistency

Here is my take. JY DID indeed write:

µ«¾ÍËãÊǾø¶¥¸ßÊÖ£¬Ò²¾ö²»Äܽ«ÄÚÁ¦ÔËÖ®ÓÚ¶þÕÉÖ®Íâ

Even top rate fighters can never transmit internal energy over 20 feet.

However, this was relative to his previous sentence. Combined, they read:

ÎäÊõÖÐËùν¡°¸ôɽ´òÅ£¡±£¬Ô_ÊÇÐÎÈݸßÊÖµÄÅü¿ÕÕÆ¡¢ÎÞÐÎ ÉñÈ_ÄÜÒÔÐé¾¢ÉËÈË£¬µ«¾ÍËãÊǾø¶¥¸ßÊÖ£¬Ò²¾ö²»Äܽ«ÄÚÁ¦ ÔËÖ®ÓÚ¶þÕÉÖ®Íâ¡£

In martial arts, Bianshan Daniu illustrates top fighters' BiCong Palm and Formless Divine Fist's ability to injure fighters using internal energy, but even top rate fighters can never transmit internal energy over 20 feet.

This limit of 20 feet should be SPECIFIC to "Bianshan Daniu" martial arts. Also in his previous sentence, Jin Jong described other similar martial arts ONLY ABLE TO STRIKE SHORT DISTANCE. So the distances described here are not in general but very specific.

Then, JY writes:

ÌìÏÂÎäÊõÖ®ÖУ¬ÈÎÄãÕÆÁ¦ÔÙÇ¿£¬Ò²¾öÎÞÒ»ÕÆ¿É»÷µ½ÎåÕÉÒÔ ÍâµÄ¡£

Of all martial arts, even the strongest palm attack cannot reach a distance of 50 feet. This is also specific to PALM ATTACKS but should not be confused with the other description.

[Athena]

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2) ÌìÏÂÎäÊõÖ®ÖУ¬ÈÎÄãÕÆÁ¦ÔÙÇ¿£¬Ò²¾öÎÞÒ»ÕÆ¿É»÷µ½ÎåÕÉÒÔ ÍâµÄ¡£¶¡´ºÇïËØÎÅ¡°±±ÇǷ壬ÄÏĽÈÝ¡±µÄ´óÃû£¬¶ÔËû¾öÎÞ °ëµãСêïÖ®ÐÄ£¬È»¼ûËûÔÚÊ®Îå°ËÕÉÖ®Íâ³öÕÆ£¬ÍòÁϲ»µ½´Ë ÕÆÊÇÕë¶Ô×Ô¼º¶ø·¢¡£Êâ²»ÁÏÏô·åÒ»ÕƼȳö£¬Éí×ÓÒÑÇÀµ½Àë ËûÈýËÄÕÉÍ⣬ÓÖÊÇÒ»ÕС°¿ºÁúÓлڡ±£¬ºóÕÆÍÆÇ°ÕÆ£¬Ë«ÕÆ Á¦µÀ²¢ÔÚÒ»Æð£¬ÅÅɽµ¹º£µÄѹ½«¹ýÀ´¡£

These two exceprts were taken from chapter 41.
Example 1: Refers to martial arts like void striking palms or formless divine fists. So the 10 metres limit is restricted to those types of martial arts.

Example 2: Refers to palm attacks in general but limited to those two types of martial arts mentioned earlier.

[Athena]

Did not realise that PJ had already responded and with similar thoughts.

[CC]

I still can't reconcile the 2 statements since they pretty much imply long distance palm strikes. And the distance difference is more then double.

[PJ]

Look. Are these 2 sentences saying the same thing?

"The most powerful palm attack including all styles can reach 50 feet."

"A specific style can only reach 20 feet."

Apparently you think they are. Consider if I say this (forget the accuracy of the statements, I just want to illustrate):

"The longest lifespan for ALL animals is 80 years."

"The longest lifespan for DOGS is 20 years."

Are you going to tell me I contradicted myself with those 2 sentences?

[PJ]

sorry, my last post sounded a bit unfriendly. CC, you can read the descriptions again and decide for yourself, however I agree with Athena on this one, & it makes sense.

Keep up the good job you're doing with the translations.

[Battosai]

Originally posted by PJ
And you misread me. I said YTZ and MRF were so much weaker than XF, whereas the Greats are about the same as GJ, the comparison that YTZ+MRF to XF = 2 Greats to GJ is unfair. Thus, I suggested YTZ and MRF to XF are like HR and QQR to Guo Jing. I never said their power were equal.

I mean if we want to have GJ fight 2 Greats, then have XF fight MRB and XYS to be fair. Get it?

Actually, I think it's still a semi-valid analogy, though in a different fashion. Eaglecliff brought up a good point that we really don't know how strong MRF's neigong was, only that it was weaker than the brothers--but weren't everyone in the novel too, except the superjanitor?

Depending on how MRF's neigong measures up, MRF+YTZ vs XF might have been more impressive than GJ's deeds. For example, if MRF was comparable to the Greats, then the combo of MRF+technique-poor YTZ might be more impressive than GJ in the Mongolian camp. GJ's battle against the 5 Mongols showed his limitations, as he should've lost were it not for his reputation and had no smart ideas at all on how to overcome 5 internally strong yet poor techniques fighters. Considering the Mongols didn't have any sophisticated wugong comparable to the Greats/Gumu/some other Chinese wugong, a smart fighter would've taken advantage of his superior techniques.

[Battosai]

Originally posted by PJ
He did?

In any case SPT right now is 2 levels below Mr. Sweeper Monk. SPT =~ Xu Zhu and Dugu Qiubai

I think Lav puts SPT right below the monk now, above the XiaoYao elders.

I'm not sure what your smilie means, so I'll bite.

I asked Lav about his rankings at the JY forum and he said it had been revised greatly and still in process of revision.

I asked him to post it but he never did.

[PJ]

I think Lav puts SPT right below the monk now, above the XiaoYao elders.

No. This is what the latest looks like:

1. The Nameless Old Sweeper Monk

2. Wuyazi, Tianshan Tonglao, Li Qiushui

3. Xuzhu, Shi Potian
(Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai)

Even if Lav did put SPT above TongLao etc, it would be justifiable, but I doubt that would be the case.

[Battosai]

Originally posted by PJ
No. This is what the latest looks like:

1. The Nameless Old Sweeper Monk

2. Wuyazi, Tianshan Tonglao, Li Qiushui

3. Xuzhu, Shi Potian
(Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai)

Even if Lav did put SPT above TongLao etc, it would be justifiable, but I doubt that would be the case.

That's the old one. It's been revised since, according to Lav.

[PJ]

Good. Just remember Lav, sticking the word Ultimate in front of that ranking can really throw some people off One suggestion: do consider putting GJ and XF in the same class. One has more power, one has better fighting style. IMO they cancel eachother out.

[CC]

Originally posted by PJ
Look. Are these 2 sentences saying the same thing?

"The most powerful palm attack including all styles can reach 50 feet."

"A specific style can only reach 20 feet."

Apparently you think they are. Consider if I say this (forget the accuracy of the statements, I just want to illustrate):

"The longest lifespan for ALL animals is 80 years."

"The longest lifespan for DOGS is 20 years."

Are you going to tell me I contradicted myself with those 2 sentences?

Your analogy is not valid in this case. The words Jin Yong used is not as different as 'animals' and 'dogs'.

JY mentioned 'Air Splitting Palms' (Pi1 Kong1 Zhang3) which is pretty much a generic description of any Long Distance Palm Strike in the first 20 foot case.

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by Battosai
I asked Lav about his rankings at the JY forum and he said it had been revised greatly and still in process of revision.

I asked him to post it but he never did.

Sorry, but I am now studying in China. The Ranking is on my harddisk file of my computer at home in Holland, so I am not able to reach it.

[superboy]

The previous argument on QF wiping away the words on stone without equipments and JY did is proof enough. I found out that Kenny explained it already, but no one paid too much attention. Lets say JY did not feel any pain during the process, but according to the novel his internal enrgy is comparable to the Greats already. Since it was stated there that no one in the Condor Trilogy can do it with aid from equipments etc, then we can conclude the Greats will need equipments, but might not feel pain during the process. It is still under QF.

[Laviathan]

Yeah, and Xiang Wentian is equal/superior to Xiao Feng...

[superboy]

Who's Xiang Wentian?