Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

[TigerWong]

Originally posted by superboy
Who's Xiang Wentian?

One of Ren WoXing's men from SoD who made imprints on the ground. He was brought up on page 7 of this thread.

[superboy]

And wasn't it stated in the novel and by Yang Gor that Juan Yuan's internal energy is equavilent to the Greats, or GJ and YD. So the Greats can only do what JY can, only without pain.

[Charlieboy]

as TigerWong has said, Laviathan has already addressed the issue of the footprints with an example from XAJH where Ren WoXing's right hand man was able to make imprints in stone with his feet - it kind of discredits any comparison between JY's feat and QF's feat

Originally posted by Laviathan

Xiang Wentian too did use his internal power to make imprints in the stone floor. His foot prints in the stone were about 2 inches deep.

From this we can conclude that, at least according to the above-mentioned theory, Xiang Wentian too is superior to Jueyuan, which automatically makes him better than Yang Guo and Guo Jing also. Based on this kind of reasoning, Xiang Wentian then probably should be in the same category as Xiao Feng, while Ren Woxing is clearly superior to Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo. And don't even get me started on Dongfang Bubai...

<IMG SRC="smilies/evillaugh.gif" border="0">

[TaiHan]

Originally posted by superboy
The previous argument on QF wiping away the words on stone without equipments and JY did is proof enough. I found out that Kenny explained it already, but no one paid too much attention. Lets say JY did not feel any pain during the process, but according to the novel his internal enrgy is comparable to the Greats already. Since it was stated there that no one in the Condor Trilogy can do it with aid from equipments etc, then we can conclude the Greats will need equipments, but might not feel pain during the process. It is still under QF.

I don't think you have paid attention either. You should go on and read what Lav respond to this situation.

[superboy]

Very informative analysis from Lav and Athena about Xiao Feng vs DCQ. XF was indeed PUSHING WITH 2 HANDS one palm after another as he MOVED towards DCQ, who at first STOOD still, but then moved back, and once Ding moved back, XF's palms could no longer injure him. Note the important thing: when XF is moving and Ding is still, he could injure him. When both are moving, XF cannot.

CC's translation
Xiao Feng felt both pain and rage in his heart. With giant strides he charged forward as his swung his left hand in a crescent and pushed out with a palm strike from his right arm towards Ding Chun Qiu. This was the "Mighty Dragon Regrets" (**Kang Long You Hui**), a technique from the 18 Dragon Slaying Palms. The distance between himself and Ding Chun Qiu when he struck out with his palm was over 150 feet but the blazing speed with which
he advanced was such that in a flash, both Xiao Feng and the palm energy was not more then 80 feet from Ding Chun Qiu.

Of all the kung fu techniques in the world, no matter how strong your palm strike, there was no way a single palm blow could strike over a distance of over 50 feet (**notice how it says 50 feet here, while earlier in the chapter the limit was 20 feet**). Ding Chun Qiu had long heard of the saying "North Qiao Feng, South Murong" and was not one to underestimate him. However, seeing that he struck out from over a distance of 150 feet, he never expected that the blow was aimed at him. It was thus unexpected that Xiao Feng was already within 30-40 feet of him and had struck out with another "Mighty Dragon Regrets", the force of both palms surging forward like a mountain shaking tidal wave.

In the face of such a fierce and blindingly swift attack, Ding Chun Qiu could not even breath, the oncoming palm force was like a furious wall of invisible force and he knew that if he tried to match it with his own palm, his arms and wrist would definitely be smashed to bits and possibly even his entire body would be smashed into bone fragments. In a panic, he flung Ah Zi away and frantically drew three semi-circles with his two arms to protect
his body while leaping backwards.

Xiao Feng followed up with yet another "Mighty Dragon Regrets", the palm force merging with the previous strikes. Ding Chun Qiu did not dare to meet this attack head on and used his right arm to deflect the oncoming strike at an angle. His arm felt full of numbness and needle sharp pain and his chest was constricted and unable to breath as he let the force push him back about 30 feet. Fearful that Xiao Feng would follow up with another attack, he pressed his palms to his chest and quietly gathered all his poisonous energies into his palms. But Xiao Feng only swept his arms up lightly and caught Ah Zi from mid air, un-blocking her sealed meridian points at the same time.

From there we know that QF struck his second palm at 30-40 feet (lets make it 35 feet), then DCQ threw away A Zhi and started to move BACKWARD TOO!!! At the same time QF was moving, DCQ were too. But QF probably moved at a faster pace, but he still haven't reached A Zhi yet at that time. So lets say his distance and DCQ now is around 20-25 feet. Then he struck out another HL18Z at DCQ. From there DCQ from an angle, tried to use his palms to knock it to the other side, and the force pushed him back another 30 feet. So he strucked DCQ maybe around at least 20/25 feet and pushed DCQ another 30 feet. That would be 20+30=50 or 25+30=55 feet. And don't forget that DCQ knocked some of the force from an angle with his palms and took out some of the force. So the palms of QF probably reaced at least 60 feet or more.

[Charlieboy]

Originally posted by superboy
So he strucked DCQ maybe around at least 20/25 feet and pushed DCQ another 30 feet. That would be 20+30=50 or 25+30=55 feet. And don't forget that DCQ knocked some of the force from an angle with his palms and took out some of the force. So the palms of QF probably reaced at least 60 feet or more.

how does this assumption work, I don't quite understand

so QF' palm reached DCQ from a distance of approx 20-25ft, but DCQ was pushed back another 30ft also counts?

Say if DCQ was stood 50-55ft away does that mean QF's palm energy would still reach him?

I thought that at the point of energy contact, all the energy of the palm is released, therefore the distance of projection would only be counted as where it made contact and not the after-effects of the energy force - ie. if I kick a ball 50ft, I made direct contact with the object and my projection is zero rather than say I projected energy up to 50ft away

[CC]

Yeah, there isn't much conclusive evidence to show Xiao Feng being able to blast >30 or so feet.

[Han Solo]

We're going around in cricles here.

To summarise most things in this thread so far:-

1) The general feeling is that DGSD in general is superior in martial arts than the Trilogy era.
2) The disagreement is how far ahead the DGSD elites compared to LOCH/ROCH/HSDS Greats or whether they might even be equal.
3) This disagreement exist because of inherent difficulties comparing fighters who have never fought each other, moreover fighters from different era.
4) Because of this, alternative measures of comparisons that have been suggested in this thread so far includes:-

i) The silent whispers of JMZ vs. Yi Deng
ii) The attainment of the level of 1 Yang Finger by the DGSD's Duan vs Yi Deng (i.e. whether Yi Deng have ever reached Level 1)
iii) The strength of palm moves, measured especially by the maximum length of attack possible.
iv) The abilities of characters to write on woods/rock, and their respective ability to erase them. (QF vs Jueyuan).

[superboy]

I thought that at the point of energy contact, all the energy of the palm is released, therefore the distance of projection would only be counted as where it made contact and not the after-effects of the energy force - ie. if I kick a ball 50ft, I made direct contact with the object and my projection is zero rather than say I projected energy up to 50ft away

Yeah, but to me it seems kind of different here. When you kick a ball, you don't kick 20 feet from the ball do you? After DCQ deflected the force from the angle, there are still some force lift and it PUSHED(*hint**hint*) him another 30 feet. It was't very specific, it it seems like DCQ wasn't being KNOCKED(*hint**hint*) by the left over force, but was only being blow away by the wind or something. He just let the force pushed him back. So do you guys agree that it's more like DCQ just flowed with the force instead of being knock away be bowling? If I didn't misinterpret that and he was just flowing with the force, then the palms could reach 60 feet or more.

[PJ]

Written by Jin Yong himself: it is IMPOSSIBLE for ANY palm attack to reach 50 feet. So your argument of 60 feet is false by definition.

[superboy]

No it is not. It was said a SINGLE PALM can't reach 50 feet!!! XF used 3 palms!!! We should be a bit more careful reading here.

[Vicious]

Originally posted by superboy
No it is not. It was said a SINGLE PALM can't reach 50 feet!!! XF used 3 palms!!! We should be a bit more careful reading here.

Huh? i dont understand. XF has three arms?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Originally posted by Vicious
Huh? i dont understand. XF has three arms?

Xiao Feng sent out his palms in three 'waves', which sort of built on top of each other.

[superboy]

Ummm.....another question. Which ones finger blasts do you guys think are stronger? The 6 monks of DGSD with their one 6MSJ each or YD's 1YZ? I know it is very debatable since there is no 1YZ level system in DGSD, but since the monks got the more advance 6MSZ that will make their blasts more damaging, do you think that it is at least equal to the power of YD's 1YZ or maybe even better?

[CC]

Don't think of 6MSJ as a blast. It works more like a real metal sword. Its properties was that it could pierce and slash and damage as well as the sharpest sword.

Considering 6MSJ is supposed to be learnt after 1YZ, I'd bet its more deadly. Possibly it could concentrate the chi into a point even better then 1YZ. e.g. the tip of a sharp sword vs the tip of a finger.


OK OK, I am getting out of this thread. Its really going nowhere. I only stepped in to defend against the notion that Xiao Feng was an inflexible fighter only capable of full power hard yang blasting.

Parting shot :

I believe GJ> the rest of the greats incl. YG

XF > GJ (although I agree GJ has greater refinement and more versatile techniques, e.g. GJ could probably heal people and unseal accupoints better etc etc) But XF's talent and fighting ferocity is of a kind never seen before and after. So he wins in a straight up fight.

Just my two cents. ok I am out!

[superboy]

Awww.....you're out of here? And I thought that it was such a fun argument.

[Han Solo]

Superboy,

It is in LOCH not DGSD, that 1 yang finger does not have a level system.

Everyone,
We assume that QF=QYS

QYS single-handedly defeated 20-odd first class fighters who is probably better than Quan Zhen fighters, which is way better than any Greats who could not deal with the seven QZ masters. And this happened 30 years before DGSD. And QYS improved between then and the end of DGSD.

So isn't it likely that QF >> GJ?

Flame me if you want.

[PJ]

Flame me if you want.

OK

Any proof that the 20 1st class fighters Xiao Yuanshan defeated 30 years ago were better than 100+ fighters that Xiao Feng handled at Ju Xian Zhuang?

[superboy]

We do know that out of the 300+ fighters that is in the manor, QF killed 10 that are said to be martial arts masters. I don't think that there are anything that can support the Greats being equal or better than QF other than their reputation. What reasons do you have for believing that the Greats are not under XF PJ?

[Han Solo]

Originally posted by PJ
OK

Any proof that the 20 1st class fighters Xiao Yuanshan defeated 30 years ago were better than 100+ fighters that Xiao Feng handled at Ju Xian Zhuang?

No.1, we are comparing QF and GJ, right?

No.2, there might be reasons to suggest that QYS's opponents might be equal or better than QF's opponents. After all, his opponents are the cream of the crop, selected from all over the central lains, whose chief task is to protect the shaolin's sutras. Even if both are equal, thse feats are more impressive than GJ's fights???