Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

[Humplewumps]

PJ, using your line of reasoning. Then whoever created all that whole lot of DGSD arts automatically become greater geniuses then the Greats?

One can claim that the Xiao Yao elders, DY and especially XZ benefitted from pre-existing martial arts which were more powerful then the Greats. Can also include JMZ since he had access to XWXG.

MRB is debatable. Was his Star shifter and Canghe Finger equal to the Greats martial arts?

XYS and XF. They had nothing better then the Greats. And the argument from the GJ supporters is that XF has access to less techniques then GJ.

Special mention for TSTL. She started learning that crazy skill at her pre-teen years. A skill so powerful that experienced martial artists in their middle ages can fire-deviate and die from just by looking at its first stance. Would the LOCH Greats and GJ/YG be able to learn Ba Hwang Liu He Shen Gong when they were 8 yrs old without suffering fire deviation?

[PJ]

Are you implying that DGSD experts are less talented than Condor Trilogy Greats?

I didn't simply imply this theory. I stated it clearly in my previous post. Please do give me the benefit of reading my entire note -- it's not that long.

I think Xiaoyao Sect people like WYZ, TSTL, LQS are at least two times more talented than the greats (not including WCY here)...

Well, talent and power are not the same thing. For example, Xuzhu is definitely stronger than a Great, but he is not even close to their level of genius. He simply received energy transmission from other people. As for the Xiaoyao Elders, I doubt they are more knowledgeable than the Greats in the field of martial arts. Is there any evidence? They simply had access to more powerful martial arts; that's why they end up more powerful than the Greats.

None of the DGSD experts created his/her own martial arts from scratch like the Greats did. They merely benefitted from existing arts. I'm not saying that they could not create their own kung fu if the situation calls for it, but I do think that creating martial arts like the Left/Right technique, Jade Maiden arts, Sad Palms, and Divine Flicking Finger from scratch (which do rival the power of existing arts like Yiyang Finger and 18 Dragon Palms) demonstrates more refined talent than simply learning existing skills.

[Extremer88]

Special mention for TSTL. She started learning that crazy skill at her pre-teen years. A skill so powerful that experienced martial artists in their middle ages can fire-deviate and die from just by looking at its first stance. Would the LOCH Greats and GJ/YG be able to learn Ba Hwang Liu He Shen Gong when they were 8 yrs old without suffering fire deviation?

Xiaoyao Sect is a secret sect, and only extremely talented guys can join the sect. I would think that WYZ, TSTL and LQS are extremely talented and gifted in martial arts from young.

Fire Deviation can lead to short-term immobilisation or death if its worse. From just looking at the first stance and your mind will get complicated and started to fire deviate. Without learning and just looking, you get fire deviatation. And a chiild who's just 8 can defy this odd to successfully learn this skill, this shows she's super gifted.

This clearly shows that TSTL is supremely talented and gifted to be able to learn this martial arts. The LOCH/ROCH greats may be talented in their own right in creating martial arts like Peach Blossom Arts, Xiantian Gong, Jade Maiden Arts, but these skills are uncomparable to the feat of TSTL successfully training a super difficult to learn martial arts when she was a child. This martial arts also have a certain level off danger in it, you could see how courageous TSTL was when she wa young.

When TSTL was a child. she could understand tough martial arts theories found in the martial arts that she learned. Just imagine how profound she knew about martial arts when she was 90. The LOCH/ROCH greats are uncomparable.

[PJ]

Then whoever created all that whole lot of DGSD arts automatically become greater geniuses then the Greats?

I would not necessarily object to this assumption. However, we must take into consideration the level of martial arts relative to the era in which they lived in. Had (some of) the Greats existed when the 6 Meridian Swords were invented, they too *may* have come up with something as impressive. Along the same line, I doubt the inventor of 6MSJ could invent 6MSJ on LOCH/ROCH's martial arts standard.

MRB is debatable. Was his Star shifter and Canghe Finger equal to the Greats martial arts?

According to Jin Yong, the Star Shifting Technique, when invented by Murong Longchen during the Five Dynasties period, was unrivaled in the realm. This was several generations before Murong Fu, and Dali's 6 Meridian Swords may have been invented around this time as well. Therefore, I think that the general level of martial arts during Murong Longchen's period should have been at least as high as that of DGSD. Star Shifting Technique and Canghe Finger should match the calibre of any Great skill, especially after Murong Bo's demonstration of Canghe Finger at Shaolin, and his mastery of Star Shifting Technique at age 15.

XYS and XF. They had nothing better then the Greats.

Not sure. Xiao Feng trained advanced Shaolin internal methods, which were not accessible in the LOCH/ROCH era. Xiao Feng's Dragon Palms were refined and passed down, but the art could have declined when it reached LOCH. As for Xiao Yuanshan, he too trained some of Shaolin's 72 Arts, which have been described in this forum as comparable to any Great level kung fu. Xiao Yuanshan also knew some skills before entering Shaolin, which I have no information on.

It's true that Guo Jing had the benefit of Nine Yin, which I consider at least as good as anything that the Xiao's had. That, along with my observations of Guo Jing's combat performance, is why I consider Guo Jing to be a cut above the rest of the Greats and roughly equal to the DGSD experts (namely XF, MRB, XYS, and JMZ).

Would the LOCH Greats and GJ/YG be able to learn Ba Hwang Liu He Shen Gong when they were 8 yrs old without suffering fire deviation?

That's an Interesting question. I will leave it to every reader to ponder. But, here's something to keep in mind. As noted by others previously, Wang Chongyang could absorb the essence of Nine Yin by just reading the incomplete manual briefly; Ouyang Feng could counter every move in the Dog Beating Stick even when he is a bit insanne. I personally think the Greats (at least the ones who created something ) would do very well in the DGSD era.

Another point to ponder is this: I am not too familiar with this age-transformation skill, but it does seem to have very wacky effects on the practioner, like how she loses power temporarily and/or must drink blood to recover. When a Great encounters problems with his martial arts, he usually creates something that trenscends the existing style, such as Yang Guo integrating his previous learnings into his newly invented Sad Palms. Like I said, I don't have much information on the age-transformation skill, but I guess I would not be surprised if a Great could take this art and invent something that retains the advantages and discards the disadvantages, which would be something that Tianshan Tonglao could not do.

[PJ]

To Extremer88: good points about Tianshan Tonglao's early achievements. I agree that she is very talented with respect to her era. Allow me to offer a few additional thoughts.

About fire deviation, it might have to do with the clarity of the mind. Remember that the Ode to Gallantry kung fu was impossible to learn by any literate martial artist, but could be learned by an illiterate person. The "Everywhere I Reign Supremely" kung fu might work similarly, in which case Tonglao's child mind would have benefitted her.

Another thing to consider is the age when they were exposed to martial arts. Maybe Tianshan Tonglao got a head start in training before the Greats. In any case, I think that Guo Jing could learn the Dragon Palms within a few years of being taught martial arts, instantly achieving more than the HSDS's Beggar Clan leader's life time.

Looking ahead into their adult years, not a lot is known about the Xiaoyao Elders' martial arts progress. However I believe there is no evidence that they created anything new. Did they even try? Dunno. I think they could have benefitted from some modifications to their existing arts. For example, consider Tianshan Tonglao's "Everywhere I Reign Supremely" skill and the "Life and Death" skill. In the first case, it seems to me that transforming into a child and losing your power every 30 years is a great adverse impact. Tonglao suffered in DGSD due to this misfortune. So, there was room for improvement, but Tonglao did not come up with a better version of the art. As for the "Life and Death" skill, it requires liquid, which is not any better than requiring some kind of weapon. Wouldn't it be better if it was energy dependent instead, like the 6 Meridian Swords? Again no one tried to improve this skill or create anything new.

In ROCH, Guo Jing demonstrated a new way to perform the Dragon Palms more efficiently. Yang Guo integrated many martial arts into his own system. These are examples of taking martial arts to the next level. If the Xiao Yao Elders were indeed much more talented than the Greats, I would expect them to transcend the limitations of their school's existing arts.

As a sidenote, the Xiaoyao Elders don't particularly strike me as very interested in martial arts. Wuyazi sat for years daydreaming about a girl (while married to another woman); Li Qiushui flirted with random men for years; and for many more years Tonglao and Li Qiushui were devising the latest strategy to kill each other -- all while Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, and Jiumozhi are busy perfecting their martial arts. The Xiaoyao Elders may have had talent, but they were too busy with personal problems to leverage their talent to the fullest.

[MrIllusion]

I don't think WYZ, TSTL and LQS are the only disciples in Xiaoyao Sect, right? Maybe those 3 happen to be geniuses and happen to have access to extraodinary martial arts.

I think the presence of people like Sweeper Monk, the 3 Xiaoyao Sect elders, Xiao Feng, XYS, MRB give people the impression that everyone in that era is just that impressive, and that the level of martial arts is a cut above the later generations.

But I don't think it's fair to use those people to generalise everyone in that era.

[PJ]

I have been thinking, perhaps I misused the term TALENT for my intention. I probably should have pronounced instead that the Greats have more EXPERTISE in the field of martial arts, than experts (no pun intended) like Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Jiumozhi.

Why do I think that the Greats have more expertise? The fact that several of them refined and/or invented their own martial arts is the reason. For all the nice long distance attacks that he showcased (which are arguably more impressive than any attack performed by the Greats), could Murong Bo come up with his own signature move, followed by the invention of several side moves, a la Eastern Heretic Huang Yaoshi? I highly, highly doubt it.

Better yet, would Xiao Yuanshan or Jiumozhi be able to come up with valid counters to every move of the Dog Beating Stick? You be the judge. Ouyang Feng was able to achieve this honor with his expertise, albeit it took him a while to think of the counters.

Of course, I maintain that expertise and power are 2 different things. The Greats may be more knowledgeable but the DGSD elites are more powerful./

[MrIllusion]

I have been thinking, perhaps I misused the term TALENT for my intention. I probably should have pronounced instead that the Greats have more EXPERTISE in the field of martial arts, than experts (no pun intended) like Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Jiumozhi.

Again I would say that individual achievements are inaccurate benchmarks for the entire wulin in that era.

Hong Qi's most accomplished martial arts were Dragon Palm and Dog-beating Stick. Yideng was known for his Yiyang Zhi. All these skills were not created but imparted to them.

I don't know which edition it was that stated that Xiao Feng and Xuzhu streamlined the original 28 strokes of Dragon Palms into 18 strokes. That also shows their ingenuity in a way.

Huang Shang existed somewhere between DGSD and LOCH and he created quite possibly one of the most sought-after martial arts. And he wasn't even a member of wulin.

Just doesn't seem conclusive to me.

[PJ]

Again I would say that individual achievements are inaccurate benchmarks for the entire wulin in that era.

I never said that either era was entirely better or worse. I was only comparing the LOCH/ROCH Greats (8 or so people) with the DGSD elites (also 8 or so people).

[Extremer88]

I personally think that CREATIVITY is what makes the LOCH/ROCH greats special. They created their own trademark/benchmark moves which are special to them, eg. Peach Blossom Arts, Xiantian Gong, Jade Maiden Arts.

Powerful martial arts exists in DGSD. Those super talented, innate born talent people like the Xiaoyao Elders have no problems learning them, even when at a tender young age.

I believe that the Xiaoyao Elders have the ability to create their own unique martial arts, but it will definetely not be as powerful and as strong as Bei Ming Shen Gong or Xiao Wu Xiang Gong. By created new inferior martial arts, they are hindering their progression from further enhancing their existing skills which require concentration, eg. WYZ enhancing his BMSG.

[SolidSnake]

If the Greats of ROCH were alive at the time of TLBB...
the 90 yo Zhou Botong would be bugging Sweeper Monk and calling him father in order to get him to teach him the 'tap' thing.
Zhou: "Show me... show me!"
Sweeps: "What? This?"
Tap. Zhou fainted. When awake again.
Zhou: "Hey.. hey.. come on show me... show me again."
Tap. Zhou fainted. When awake again.
Zhou: "Dad, that's cool."
Sweeps: "Stop calling me dad!"
Tap. Zhou fainted and awake again.
Zhou: "This is exciting, dad. Lemme try, lemme try."
Sweeps: "Huh?"
Left and Right Tap. Sweeps passed out cold.
Zhou: "Um.. I guess double-tap is a no?"

[Humplewumps]

Yideng and H7G did not create any new styles or improve on existing styles but in terms of genius, they are ranked with the other greats.

[MrIllusion]

Yideng and H7G did not create any new styles or improve on existing styles but in terms of genius, they are ranked with the other greats.

True. I was merely giving an example that using existing martial arts does not necessarily mean lack of innovation.

In fact I suspect that creating a unique set of martial arts is more beneficial to people who have learnt a wide range of skills from different schools (YG), or have a wide range of hobbies and interests (HYS).

For people who belong to a sect with long history, it may not be necessary. I think it was mentioned that in Shaolin alone, noone other than Bodhidarma had learnt all the 72 Arts. So they actually have more skills than they can master. The skills from Xiaoyao Sect also seem like they would take someone a long time to master.

I never said that either era was entirely better or worse. I was only comparing the LOCH/ROCH Greats (8 or so people) with the DGSD elites (also 8 or so people).

In that case, the Greats in LOCH and owards do seem more innovative. I think it may be because the characters in LOCH/ROCH came into contact with a greater variety of martial arts (people seemed to be willing to impart skills to strangers, eg HYS, ZBT, HQ), so it facilitates the creation of unique skills.

In DGSD, everyone seemed to stick to one school of martial arts. When they tried to learn skills from multiple schools, it always seemed to turn out bad (JMZ, XYS, MRB).

[K2Grey]

Well, it doesn't really make sense for Damo/Bodhidarma to have mastered all 72 Arts because Xuan Ci claimed that many of the arts were invented or refined after Damo's death. Then again, hyperbole reigns in the martial arts world.

I would question whether the XY Elders are necessarily "greater" martial artists, but they surely have more fighting power than the Greats. There's no real need or way to improve on all these uber-arts. Remember that it wasn't BH6HWWDZG which had the fire deviation thing going on, rather, the entire cave of Lingu Gong had all manner of XY Sect arts written on it. And looking at any one of them will cause fire deviation. XY Sect only accepts really talented people and the 4 maids of XZ weren't sure if they would dare to enter the cave again even after practicing martial arts diligently for 20 more years. BH6HWWDZG is of course probably more potent than other XY Sect arts.

Also, LQS and TSTL started going at it bigtime somewhere in their teen years, if TSTL started learning 8H... when she was 8, that implies LQS also started on XWXG (which is also way powerful) when she was very young as well. And when they fight they are pretty evenly matched since they've been trying to kill each other since the dawn of time and neither has succeeded for about 80 years, that implies LQS is also a huge genius. And WYZ was supposed to be better than them!

Isofar as martial arts improving skills go it'd be pretty nice if HYS's Tanzhi Shentong didn't require any physical pebbles and worked on inner power alone. Oh wait... that's Nianhua Zhi from Shaolin 72 Arts and JMZ owned the monk who was supposed to be a master of it in about 3 seconds. Not to speak of MRB's Canhe Finger which is like a sniper rifle. Now TSTL maybe could have had a long distance attack _like_ Shen Si Fu, however, Shensifu is not great because it is an awesome attack per se, rather, it is good because it allows you to totally control people once you hit them with it. She could maintain Shen Si Fu on 100+ people (36 islands 72 caves masters) and have them all under her control, something no inner power deal is going to do. If she wants a long distance attack she can use a 18 meter distance palm attack and who knows what finger techniques she knows and what distances it goes up to.

Edit: I don't think JMZ, MRB, and XYS's problems with learning multiple schools of martial arts had anything to do with inability to learn multiple schools at once. Rather, it was due to the unique nature of the Shaolin arts in that you need to have various stages of enlightenment to learn them. I'm sure they would have no problem learning the martial arts of any other sect, even Xiaoyao (BMSG excepted).

[MrIllusion]

Remember that it wasn't BH6HWWDZG which had the fire deviation thing going on, rather, the entire cave of Lingu Gong had all manner of XY Sect arts written on it.

Was it mentioned that this was because of the potency of the skill itself, or was it maybe some kind of pre-requisite that was required? Kuihua Baodian required castration regardless of the amount of internal energy the practitioner had, so maybe to learn the skills of Xiaoyao Sect without any side-effects, the practitioner must have some pre-requisite. (maybe learn Xiao Wuxiang Gong or the other one with long name)

Edit: I don't think JMZ, MRB, and XYS's problems with learning multiple schools of martial arts had anything to do with inability to learn multiple schools at once. Rather, it was due to the unique nature of the Shaolin arts in that you need to have various stages of enlightenment to learn them. I'm sure they would have no problem learning the martial arts of any other sect, even Xiaoyao (BMSG excepted).

In LOCH, Hong Qi mentioned that HYS is unable to learn his school of martial arts and vice versa because they belonged to different paths. So within every martial art, there is some criteria other than internal energy requirement that decides who can and can't learn it.

But you're probably right about JMZ, MRB and XYS needing some form of spiritual enlightenment to learn those skills without side-effects. I remember the adaptation mentioned it as well.

[Extremer88]

Was it mentioned that this was because of the potency of the skill itself, or was it maybe some kind of pre-requisite that was required? Kuihua Baodian required castration regardless of the amount of internal energy the practitioner had, so maybe to learn the skills of Xiaoyao Sect without any side-effects, the practitioner must have some pre-requisite. (maybe learn Xiao Wuxiang Gong or the other one with long name)

Actually, I would like to assume that Xiaoyao Sect's martial arts are only available for virgins, but since WYZ was together with TSTL and LQS who was so flirty , I believe this concept would be inappropriate.

Kuihua Baodian is heavily yin, and your body must be heavily yin in order to practise or else you will fire deviate and die from practising it. So removing the balls would eliminate the remaining yin energy on your male body, and become more feminine and yin.

[Ken Cheng]

In LOCH, Hong Qi mentioned that HYS is unable to learn his school of martial arts and vice versa because they belonged to different paths. So within every martial art, there is some criteria other than internal energy requirement that decides who can and can't learn it.

The odd thing is that Gwok Jing, Wong Yung, and Yeung Gor each learned elements of both North Beggar and East Heretic's martial arts.

[CC]

If you look at it, necessity is the mother of invention.

Z3F, HYS, WCY and LCY didn't belong to an elite school with elite skills, so they made their own.

ZWJ,H7G, YD, Xiao Yao elders had elite skills handed to them, so they didn't.

[MrIllusion]

If you look at it, necessity is the mother of invention.

Z3F, HYS, WCY and LCY didn't belong to an elite school with elite skills, so they made their own.

ZWJ,H7G, YD, Xiao Yao elders had elite skills handed to them, so they didn't.

I like this explanation. It's way shorter and to the point.

[PJ]

If you look at it, necessity is the mother of invention.

Z3F, HYS, WCY and LCY didn't belong to an elite school with elite skills, so they made their own.

ZWJ,H7G, YD, Xiao Yao elders had elite skills handed to them, so they didn't.

Agree. But as I said before, it is a shame that Jin Yong had to revise the fact that Hong Qigong invented 18 Dragon Palms and Yideng invented Yiyang Finger. I rather like the notion that all 4 Greats invented their own kung fu -- that way they seem more equal in their abilities.

So in the end I would say:
LOCH/ROCH Greats = More Refined, less powerful
DGSD Elites = More Raw power, less refined

Another reason that I think the Greats have more wisdom and expertise in martial arts is their scope of knowledge. The Greats seem to be more flexible in combat situations. For example, consider the Zhou Botong vs Yang Guo. Zhou Botong first used Vacant Fist. When it didn't work too well, he switched to Left/Right Technique, which was more suitable for the situation. Another example is Huang Yaoshi vs Yang Guo. Huang Yaoshi was first using palm energy, but it proved inferior to Yang Guo. He then snapped his Divine Flicking Finger technique, which proved more helpful in the situation.

In DGSD, the elites did not battle each other very much. I have not read the part with Tonglao and Li Qiushui, so no comment on that. Jiumozhi vs Xuzhu - JMZ was bound to lose face when going up against someone with 3x his energy. The major fight that comes to mind is Xiao Feng vs You Tanzhi + Murong Fu. (CC is probably rolling his eyes if he ever read this, since I have analyzed this combat no less than 10 times over the years ) This time, I believe Xiao Feng did not adapt to the situation very well. I mean it became clear that a straight-forward all-out, full-blast contest would not help him, but he ignored the signs and continued to fight unfavorably; it seems that is the only way he knows how to fight. I am just not impressed with Xiao Feng at all in this fight. Based on the situation, I conclude that Xiao Feng lacks the control of flexibility of a true master of martial arts like the Greats.

By the way, I have a theory that You Tanzhi's kung fu works similar to Dugu 9 Swords and Shi Potian in trance mode. The more fiercely you attack him, the more fiercely he responds. You Tanzhi previously fought Abbot Xuanci, who is weaker than Xiao Feng. But Abbot Xuanci did not find You Tanzhi's palm unbearable like Xiao Feng did. So, I think that Xiao Feng's full blast efforts will be in vain when facing an opponent like You Tanzhi + Murong Fu. If I were to fight such an opponent made up of one technique expert and one internal energy dummy, my strategy would be to explore their individual weakness: confuse the internal energy dummy with dazzling technique, while blasting the technique expert hard. Easier said than done, I know. But, the strategy seems logical.

OK, I do realize that it is natural for the 70 year old LOCH Greats to have more wisdom and control than 30 year old Xiao Feng. What I want to say is that the DGSD elites are more impressive fighters, while the Greats are more impressive martial artists.

Please continue to assess my ideas. I don't always think about all the points, and you are welcome to share your thoughts.