Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

[Athena]

After everyone has given their opinions, impressions, expressions on this particular matter.
The question that lies here: is the LDA and LDS theory a reliable criterion for saying the LOCH trilogy top are below the DGSD top?
It isn't, the gentle talking isn't a reliable criterion either. But for both theories something can be said.
I think Tigerwong and Laviathan have a point when they are saying LDA and LDS are essentially the same thing. But LDA is a bit stronger form of LDS and LDS just a bit weaker than LDA.
It surprises me that no one till now has ever replied to me saying that one of the reasons why the belief DGSD top better than LOCH trilogy top was due top the style of writing of Jin Yong.
As for Guo Xiang no one knew for sure how strong she became. It's very premature to say that she doesn't belong to any top in any era.

Anyway I won't sue anyone mainly because I don't have enough money to hire a top lawyer. Secondly no court will take this case seriously. Sueing another reader for having different opinions about characters of a novel. Right I can see it now in the headlines on CNN.
<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[Kenny]

Hmm... was in school almost the entire day yesterday... so no time to reply until now...

TigerWong wrote:
&gt; Then I'm not sure what your point was with that sentence.

I meant "identical" as in they are the same AND they also look exactly the same. Since I'm quite certain that when something is lost and then re-invented, there are sure to be some minor differences, (say, in appearance,) so I said they wouldn't be identical.

&gt; Because at the time, I was wondering if the LDA part
&gt; of 18 Dragon Slaying Palms was lost along with KF

In terms of characteristics, the two versions of 18 Palm should very much be the same. At least, JY never mentioned that they were different, or how different if they were.

&gt; (assuming one didn't see LDA as just a by-product of
&gt; inner power).

Well, think the Dik Wan example I gave... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

&gt; I still don't understand how one can assume that the
&gt; Greats must equal the 6M just because the Greats &lt; KF et
&gt; al. and so were the 6M. I mean, theres a big gap between
&gt; JMZ and the 6M. Why is it so improbable that the
&gt; Greats could fall within that gap? Oh well, maybe it's
&gt; just me....

Well, for now, I'm just trying to argue why 6M = 3ShaolinElders is unlikely. And it's a little bit abstract...

Well, like I said in my last message, if you have 200 teams and divide them into two divisions (DivA and DivB) randomly, at the end of season, the average results of the top-10 in DivA and the top-10 in DivB would look almost equal, the next-10 in DivA and the next-10 in DivB also look almost equal... so on. If you don't believe it, you can use Excel to do a few simulation experiments... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Now, assuming there's a way for us to fairly assign a numeric power rating to each fighter, (so that, say, Janitor Monk would have the highest rating... we just don't know how high,) and we compare the fighters from DGSD to those in the Trilogy. If we assume that the pugilistic societies as a whole in those two eras were equally strong, then the power ratings in those two eras would very likely follow the same distribution. The result of this is that the average power rating of the top-10 in DGSD and top-10 in the Trilogy would look almost equal, just like the DivA-vs-DivB example I gave above.

But to those of us who believe the ToD is true, we don't make this assumption, (that the two eras were equally strong.) And whether we believe in the ToD or not, we can see from the novels' descriptions that the pugilistic society as a whole in DGSD is quite significantly above that in the Trilogy, enough to believe that there was something that caused DGSD's "power rating distribution" to show a higher level of skewness to the right, or to somewhat shift to the right, or both. In any case, when that happened, it's highly unlikely for the second top-10 of DGSD (where 6M belong) to remain equal to the 2nd top-10 of the Trilogy, (where 3SLE belong.) Of course, this argument relies on the ToD. If you don't believe in it, you wouldn't agree w/ my arguments... <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

And is this "shift" significant enough to move the 2nd top-10 of DGSD to the level near the Trilogy's top-10? That depends on the impression you get from the novel... To me, the top-10 in DGSD were impressive enough for me to believe that the difference between the DGSD and the Trilogy was quite significant. And I think the best way for you to decide whether to agree w/ me is to read the novels yourself... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Just curious, I think you can read some Chinese, and have read some GL novels... why don't you try JY?

Athena wrote:
&gt; To be honest after discussing this topic for almost a week.
&gt; I think that LDS and LDA are basically something you
&gt; came up with and isn't a solid criterium.

I came up w/ that mainly because the Di Yun (or in Canto: Dik Wan) scene and also several other examples that I gave were enough to generalize that people w/ LDA have more inner power than those w/o LDA, and those who showed that they could push another fighter back a few steps also have more inner power than those who couldn't. And in most cases, w/ everything else being equal, having more inner power implies better fighter... (there are a couple exceptions (e.g. LHC), but this generalization is still valid for most cases...)

Also, the general idea that "fighters w/ strong inner power can fight almost as effectively as w/o weapon" (only when fighting against weaker opponents, of course) also somewhat supports my assertion that LDS &gt; "conventional" fighters.

&gt; I can't come up
&gt; with any "solid" evidence to say that those examples I
&gt; mentioned were without physical contact. BUT YOU CAN'T BE
&gt; SURE EITHER THAT THERE WAS PHYSICAL CONTACT!

Maybe. But the descriptions from fight scenes in DGSD looked so much different.

In DGSD, top fighters start punching each other even if they're 30, 40 feet apart, (whether or not they can hurt their opponents is not as relevent,) but we'll never see that in the Trilogy. When two top fighters from the Trilogy fight, they nevertheless have to come close to each other first, and their attacks slowly push each other apart.

&gt; Same as accepting the fact that "Greats" are almost as
&gt; strong as 6 Monks of CDT because of your LDS and LDA theory.

Actually, I first presented that LDA/LDS theory was to argue JMZ &gt; Greats. The comparison between 6M and the Greats was only a side issue that somehow got more attention than the main point!

&gt; Also you're using every day situations to illustrate
&gt; your ideas up till now I haven't said anything about it.

I never said everyday examples cannot be used in JY analysis. It's just that some are not valid when applying to JY world. For example, exactly how much having inner power would help a fighter cannot be well-described by everyday example because most of us don't have the kind of inner power the novel characters have.

My everyday situations have more to do to physics, though, like sliding might not hurt you, but sliding and then crashing to a wall might send you to the hospital... I don't think laws of physics change much in the JY universe.

&gt; Anyway when Guo Jing challenged Li MoChou for the first
&gt; time he used his internal energy to generate a few loud
&gt; whistles. At that time he didn't know how strong Li was,
&gt; so if you're saying that JiuMo Zhi would likely preserve
&gt; energy for any potential fights.

Again, challenging one fighter is alot different from challenging an entire sect, (the strongest sect, even.) The latter is much riskier.

&gt; Also when Zhang WuJi faced the people from the orthodox
&gt; six schools, at one point they all began laughing Zhang
&gt; used a form of gentle talking to shout down the laughing.
&gt; Even a dense man like Zhang WuJi must realise that
&gt; martial power is the only way to solve this conflict for now.

Well, I never said that wouldn't waste his energy. I never said JMZ never waste his energy either! I was saying JMZ wouldn't waste any UNNECESSARILY energy. Remember, I was questioning if JMZ had tried his best. Perhaps JMZ knew using only 30% of his energy would be enough to impress the monks, then there's no reason for him to use all his energy, when he's expecting tough fights ahead.

Same thing for ZWJ. Yes, he talked over everyone else's laugh in the scene, but he might not have used all his energy. He could've just used enough (barely enough) for his voice to cover everybody else's, whether it's at the 30%, 50%, or 80% level...

&gt; If you say that gentle talking and using internal energy
&gt; to generate your voice consumes (a lot of) energy why
&gt; would Guo Jing and Zhang WuJi used it before engaging in
&gt; a potential battle.

Any proof that they wasted more energy than necessary? My whole point about JMZ was that he wouldn't waste more energy than was necessary, so that JMZ was not using all his power to impress the monks w/ gentle talking. I never said JMZ, too, didn't consume energy through his gentle talking.

&gt; The novel just stated Zhang WuJi
&gt; walked towards the tree and aimed his fist and
&gt; BANG!

He walked up to the tree, so how's that LDA?

&gt; the tree flew away for about 7 metres or so. WAS THERE
&gt; PHYSICAL CONTACT?

He walked up to the tree, so was there physical contact?

How far the broken tree flew away is irrelevent.

&gt; when Zhang SanFeng used his right palm to disperse those
&gt; 2 monks, so you're saying he didn't use palm
&gt; energy but he used magic, or cosmic powers?

Huh?

Again, why do you interpret everything as "no physical contact" only because JY didn't explicitly mentioned "phsyical contant"? The novel said Z3F jumped over to the monks' boat, and then he swung his left arm and knocked two monks flying away into the water. Sure, JY didn't explicitly say "Hey, look!! Physical contact there!!" but I think most readers don't see things like you do.

&gt; Yang Guo PROBABLY DID NOT WANT TO KILL those 4. He wanted
&gt; to find out what they were saying about his father.

But even if YG wanted to kill those 4, we don't know if he could w/o physical contact.

&gt; I'm not sure I'm just deducting here I'm sure you'll find
&gt; something wrong here as well and nitpick on it.

No, that's not how things to. XF could kill from LDA. He showed that in the novel. Whether or not how hard he was actually trying is irrelevent.

YG did not want to kill those 4, so he didn't use LDA. But that does not mean he could use LDA had he wanted to kill those 4!

&gt; Back to A Er and Zhang WuJi, the reason why I assumed that
&gt; there was a distance in between them was from LOCH chapter
&gt; 21. Jin Yong wrote that highly skilled martial arts experts
&gt; didn't let opponents near them in a fight.

Huh?

In that scene, GJ was "hugging" OYF, and then used his wrestling skills to fight OYF. And JY wrote that good fighters normally don't allow his opponents to get to that kind of close distance, (i.e. hugging distance.) You somehow interpreted it as good fighters don't allow the distance for normal physical combats.

&gt; Also those 2 men who attacked Guo Jing in the ChongYang
&gt; Shrine you say it like they were about 1 metre away
&gt; from the wall. What makes you certain it wasn't 6, 7 metres.

When did I say they were 1 meter away from the wall? The pingpong ball was just an example...

I think you misunderstood my point. In many sports, players often have to make a slide, (e.g. in soccer, or baseball...) Usually, sliding don't hurt you, but if you slide and crash into a wall, (say, baseball players trying to catch a fly ball,) then there's a good chance of being injured. In cases like these, it's the "crashing into the wall" part that hurt the players, and the "sliding" part. Same thing, GJ attacked two guys and push them backward, and then those two hit the wall, afterward they vomitted blood. It's the wall that helped GJ.

&gt; Reading back on my post I realise my tone was really
&gt; *****y. I AM VERY SORRY! I just had to deal with some
&gt; quite unpleasant personal problems. I apologize again
&gt; for my *****y tone and if I have offended anyone I am
&gt; very sorry.

If you're apologizing to me, then there's no need for that! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Like I said, I understand how it goes and sometimes my tone isn't any better, so I don't mind that at all...

[Kenny]

Lav wrote:
&gt; Not really, a Martial Arts formation "zhenfa" is derived
&gt; from Military Formations and requires specific footwork and
&gt; patterns, the persons making up the formation each have a
&gt; certain position. The Seven Star Union of Quanzhen does not
&gt; really resemble a formation. It is more a technique like
&gt; the one used by the Five Uglies of the Tibetan Border at
&gt; Huashan.

Perhaps. But nevertheless it also had many characteristics of a formation. For example, there's a time when the taoists weren't quick enough to set up the position properly that they were not able to use it. And much cooperation among its user is required for this to be effective, making it practically a "formation".

Anyway, however you classify this as is irrelevent to our discussion.

&gt; Well, in the book it was told that he managed to avoid
&gt; the big impact of power. That's why he made a nasty fall
&gt; but was not injured.

But you cannot say if NMX didn't try to dodge it, then it would be a long distance attack!

If I were to fight Mike Tyson, you can bet that I don't want any physical contact w/ him. I'll try to avoid him just like NMX avoided the taoists, but it doesn't mean Tyson wasn't aiming at my body had I stood still, much like how NMX took a fall doesn't mean that the taoists was using LDA had they not missed the target.

&gt; No, Dacheng (Great Achievement) is the better form of
&gt; Xiaocheng (Small Achievement), how come you'd think it
&gt; is short for "Dagong Gaocheng"?

No. "Da Cheng" (or in Canto: Daai Sing) is used more like a noun. It's a stage/level of achievement (in this case, great achievement.) And Jin Yong wrote that Jue Yuan had reached that level. "DaGongGaoCheng" used more like a verb. It means that someone has just reached that level, the "Da Cheng" level. But the two essentially mean the same thing.

&gt; BTW, you're from Engineering, I study Language and
&gt; Political Science, so we're bound to have different point
&gt; of views. Let's just agree to disagree.

Right. That's why I don't pay attention to semantics, <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> like "wipe" and "scrape" or exactly what a "formation" is...

&gt; No, the term Dengfeng Zaoji in this case is used together
&gt; with "Luhuo Chunqing" specifically to describe the art
&gt; instead of the person. It was said that Yideng's Yiyang
&gt; Finger has "reached the peak of perfection, attained the
&gt; level of perfection".

That's a different in opinion. You take it literally, I don't.

Let me take a couple quotes from JY novels. I won't tell you who the quotes are describing, or where they're found:
±q¾A¤~³o¤@¼C¥X©Û¤§§Ö¡B®³®º¤§·Ç¬Ý¨Ó¡A¼C¤Wªº³y¸Ú¹ê¤w ¨ì¤Fµn®p³y·¥ªº¦a¨B¡C

Rough translation:
Based on this sword move's speed and its accuracy, [the swordsman's] sword skill has already "reached the peak and extremity."

So from this quote, are you going to assert that, since his skills has reached extremity, that his sword skills are as good as DGQB's?

Well, I don't take this literally, so I'm not contradicting myself or applying double standard. But you take these things literally.

A second quote:
³o¤T¤H³£¬Oµn®p³y·¥ªºªZ¥\¡A®Ì²´¤§¶¡¡A«K¤w¥h±o¦Ñ»·¡C

Rough translation:
These three persons all possess martial arts skills of the "peak and extremity" level. In a blink of the eye, they have already gone faraway.

So since their overall martial arts skills have reached peak and extremity, are you going to assert that they're as good as the Janitor Monk?

Remember, I don't take this literally. You do.

&gt; True. But it's still a fact that You Tanzhi's techniques were
&gt; inferior to Xiao Feng's while Murong Fu's inner strength
&gt; was much weaker than Xiao's.

Yes, but MRF also knew this so he work especially hard to eliminate the weakness.

&gt; While up to that point in ROCH, Golden Wheel Monk's
&gt; inner power was still stronger than Guo's, plus he had
&gt; the help of two martial arts experts who had reached a
&gt; high level in both technique and power.

About GWM's inner power being higher than GJ, there's possibly some contradiction to that. And even if that's true, it's wouldn't be better by much. And technique-wise, none of the fighters there was as good as GJ's. Also, GJ seemed to last longer in that fight because the Mongolian fighters started to fight among themselves as soon as GJ was in trouble.

&gt; Besides, You and Murong didn't know eachother, their
&gt; cooperation was pure coincidence. You's inexperience was
&gt; plain to see.

It wasn't that much of a coincidence. They might not know that they're perfect partners before the fight, but within and during the fight, MRF recognized it, and tried to let IronHead take most of the hard hits from XF, and he concentrated on the techniques.

&gt; While in the case of Guo Jing, all his three opponents
&gt; were experienced warriors who had already worked together
&gt; for quite some time.

They also worked against each other a lot, probably as much as they work with each other.

&gt; OK, so only pointblank powerblasts á la Xiao Feng can be
&gt; considered LDA, while Yideng's Yiyang Finger can only
&gt; be LDS,

They first fought close distance. And their attacks were so strong that they had to dodge each other's attacks, and when that happened, they started to move gradually apart until they were about 10 ft apart! There's no mention that once YD and GWM separated by up to 10 ft, that they were still able to hurt each other.

&gt; and "killing people with internal energy by making their
&gt; organs malfunction without physical contact" does
&gt; not belong in either category...

Are you talking about SYQ? No, that's not LDS at all. SYQ was tricking those three guys to use THEIR own energy into damaging themselves.

&gt; And what about moving those tea-cups? Circus tricks?

Moving tea-cups? A 3-year-old is strong enough to do it, (w/ physical contact, of course.) Is a 3-yr-old strong enough to hurt a fighter?

&gt; Aren't LDA and LDS actually one and the same, LDA being
&gt; somewhat more powerful LDS and LDS being somewhat weaker LDA?

Yes, this is in my opinion true. That's why I rank XF above the Greats!

[Moinllieon]

<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> I'm always happy to find out that I won't be sued.

Anyways, Athena, regarding your point about the style of writing that JY used in the books, to me it is a moot (or mute) point. Because, if I remember correctly, the books were written decades apart, there were bound to be differences in the styles of writing. Heck, I remember back when I was translating both SoD and DGSD, I remember commenting on how different in styles the 2 books were (you notice things like this when you are translating). SoD's paragraphs were much longer and much more stream of conscious in thought and description than DGSD was. And these 2 books were written pretty much back to back. DGSD was serialized originally from 1963 to 1967 while SoD was from 1966 to 1969, compared that to L/RoCH's serialized dates (1957-1959, 1959-1962 respectively). It's really not that surprising that there's a difference in writing style.

If you look at the revision dates, the difference in dates is even more evident. JY finished revised LoCH in 1975, RoCH and HSDS in 1976. However, he did not finish revising DGSD until 1979 and SoD until 1980. (At last count anyways, he might revise all of them some more.)

So I don't take the difference in writing styles too seriously.

As for LDA and LDS, sure they are differnet degrees of the same thing, but isn't a Dragon Subduing Palm strike from Guo Jing and a regular punch taught to a novice in ShaoLin just different degrees of the same thing as well(albeit an extreme example). And isn't PiXie JianFa just like any other sword skill except it is several degrees faster and several degrees trickier? Everything in martial arts is just difference in degrees. So basically saying that LDA is just a stronger version of LDS means nothing at all. Because the difference in the strength (and proficiency) of these 2 things is the entire point of differentiating between them and calling the 2 of them different names. (Also see: H-bomb vs. A-bomb, light speed vs. sonic speed, etc.)

So... why do I think DGSD people are great? Hmm... well, for one thing, if my memory serves me right (I don't have access to my books b/c I'm currently in a computer lab in between classes <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">), Xiao Feng did this Matrix thing once. Ah-Zi's elder martial brother was trying to kill her by kinda shooting a fireball at her (or that was it seemed like to me). Xiao Feng was some distance behind Ah-Zi (far enough so that they didn't make physical contact), but somehow, through Ah-Zi's body, he stopped the fireball with his inner force and forced it back onto this elder martial brother of Ah-Zi (and making it look like it was Ah-Zi's doing as well). I just don't see anybody in the L/RoCH era doing that. Of course, just because the situation did not come up for YG or GJ doesn't mean they couldn't do it. But that was just such an impressive feat to me though.

<font size="1">[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: Moinllieon ]</font>

[someguy44]

To TigerWong, yes you're right in saying that Kenny used basically the same reasoning for rating Sat Por Tin and again I don't like it. I just don't like people automatically assuming Sat Por tin to be ranked so high when there's no clear evidence to show how good the two lords are when compared with other top fighters of other eras.

Also, I agree with what you said about what Athena meant. Those people that H7G killed probably didn't all showed up as fights in the novel (if any), but the fact still stands that with all their so call great prowesses (top triology fighters) that not once did the occasion come up.

Athena, as for what you said regarding LDA for the triology fighters... JY might have not described the fights in detail like he did for DGSD for his style of writing had change over time. However, remember this. The new revisions of his novels are coming out (if not already out) and if he once again does not describe the fights of the triology fighters in detail (like giving a good distance without physical contact and still injuring or killing a much weaker fighter), then he is purposely trying to make top DGSD fighters more powerful. All the opinions and impressions of you guys will be change once we get a hold of his new revised triology novels. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[Athena]

Style, imagery and description are more powerful in DGSD than in LOCH. I, myself found out that in the same story by cleverly using impressive imagery and so can change the package of the story making it more spectular. (I took a course in Creative Writing, terrible course by the way). I believe this is the case with DGSD.

If Jiu MoZhi didn't try his best why would you say that reverend YiDeng would? There are NO INDICATIONS in the novel that say he was trying his best, same goes for Jiu MoZhi.
Also I got the impression from reading your posts that you seem to think that generating internal power to your voice seems to consume energy a lot. Perhaps it's me that misinterpret the meaning of your earlier posts.
So the issue remains the same I say that Jiu MoZhi's talking resembled YiDeng's talking. The description seemed similar, their voices traveled quite far. So I assume that their internal strengths couldn't be that far apart from each other.
The example of Zhang SanFeng: you're saying that because the author didn't write the character using palm energy to disperse those monks there is physical contact. You base that on....?
The fact that Jin Yong played with more characters, descriptions, imagery in DGSD does not mean the characters there are more powerful. They are just more colourful for the readers.
Guo Jing's example: Why do say the reason they coughed up blood was because of hitting the wal. IS IT NOT POSSIBLE BECAUSE THEY WERE ALREADY HURT BY GUO JING'S PALM ENERGY? And were pushed back against the wall by the "energy wind." Did Jin Yong write that the wall helped Guo Jing. No, you drew that conclusion yourself based on examples of sports. Sorry that doesn't convince one bit!!

DengFeng ZhaoJi and LuHuo ChunQing in this case refers to YiDeng's level of YiYang Finger. The experts of Celestial Dragon Temple studied the same art, but they never received such a description on their levels of YiYang Finger.
In this case we are not talking about the INDIVIDUAL LEVEL OF MARTIAL ARTS OF ANY PARTICULAR FIGHTER. BUT EXPERTS THAT ALL STUDY THAT ART OF YIYANG FINGER. WHICH CANNOT BE SEEN AS ERA BOUNDED!
Saying that Miao RenFeng for example has reached the level of DengFeng ZhaoJi of martial arts. True in his own era he was.
But nowhere in The Book and the Sword or The Young Flying Fox Zhao BanSan received the following praise of DengFeng ZhaoJi LuHuo ChunQing about the level of his TaiJi Sword.
We are talking about the same martial arts (YiYang Finger) and with a timespan of only more than 100 years.
When GoldenWheel Monk and reverend YiDeng stood apart from each other ± 4 metres. You're saying that they couldn't harm each other anymore. There isn't any proof saying they couldn't either.
Again you're twisting it into the benefit of your own.
AGAIN BECAUSE WE DO NOT SEE THE GREAT SHOWING LDA (THE WAY YOU WOULD LOOK TO SEE IT) DOES NOT MEAN THEY CANNOT DO IT!
LDA AND LDS ARE THE SAME THING IN MY OPINION. DIFFERENCE: IN DGSD WE SEE IT MORE CLEARLY BECAUSE OF THE VIVID WRITING STYLE OF JIN YONG!

[Laviathan]

To Kenny:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Well, I never said that wouldn't waste his energy. I never said JMZ never waste his energy either! </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, this whole debate about Using Energy when Talking Gently went out of hand, up to point where it's not clear what we're arguing about anymore. Athena uses the examples of Jiumozhi and Yideng to make the assumption that the two are equal inner power wise. Kenny then said it might not be correct becasue we don't know how hard they tried. But the answers which followed gave Athena the idea that Kenny thinks that Yideng used much more effort than Jiumozhi when doing the same thing. But actually the point is: Jiumozhi, Yideng and Zhang Wuji could all do the same thing, but still we don't know how they compare with each other.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> But you cannot say if NMX didn't try to dodge it, then it would be a long distance attack! </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> I wasn't saying that, you said that Nimoxing wasn't injured and I pointed out why. That's all.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> But the two essentially mean the same thing. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this case, I agree. But there are certainly many cases in which they differ, like:
Áú «D ¶° ªk ®a ¤§ ¤j ¦¨
"Han Fei synthesized Legalist thoughts into one Great Learning". If we would use Dagong Gaozheng, then it would only mean that Han Fei finished his job in combining Legalist Theories.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> So from this quote, are you going to assert that, since his skills has reached extremity, that his sword skills are as good as DGQB's?

Well, I don't take this literally, so I'm not contradicting myself or applying double standard. But you take these things literally. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because we have to look to the context in order to understand the meaning of these words. In this case, it described the way Zhuya Daguai (the Monster of Pearl Cliff?) thought about Sword God Zhuo Bufan's sword skills. Zhuya Daguai was much, much weaker than Zhuo, that's why he thought that Zhuo had reached an ultimate level.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> These three persons all possess martial arts skills of the "peak and extremity" level. In a blink of the eye, they have already gone faraway.

So since their overall martial arts skills have reached peak and extremity, are you going to assert that they're as good as the Janitor Monk? </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it just means that Xiao Senior, Xiao Junior and Daddy Murong were extremely good.

But the above-mentioned examples were describing martial arts in general, no particular styles were mentioned, while in Yideng's case it was about the Art of Yiyang Finger specifically. And again, I bring up the fact that the distance between Duan Yu and Murong Fu was also 10 feet, the same as in the case of Yideng and Golden Wheel Monk.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Also, GJ seemed to last longer in that fight because the Mongolian fighters started to fight among themselves as soon as GJ was in trouble. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I already said: in both cases there was hostility between the "bad guys", Murong Fu saw You Tanzhi as a potential rival, he hold back "and tried to let IronHead take most of the hard hits from XF" (like you mentioned).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> There's no mention that once YD and GWM separated by up to 10 ft, that they were still able to hurt each other. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

They were still attacking each other, so obviously they could still cause damage at 10 ft distance.

Lastly I wanted to make something clear: some might think that I see Trilogy Greats being better than DGSD Greats. That's absolutely NOT my intention. I actually agree with a lot of Kenny's points. Xiao Feng's long distance palm attacks ARE impressive, in other novels such display of power was never mentioned. But the most power proponent of Long Distance Finger Attacks of DGSD (Duan Yu) could cover a distance similar to the Finger proponent of Trilogy (Yideng). So maybe Xiao Feng's was an exceptional case on it's own? It's like in HSDS: many readers think that the Xuanming Elders are much MUCH more powerful than Yang Xiao and Fan Yao. They are more powerful, but not that much powerful. The Elders have a more powerful palm style and a very nasty type of inner strength. When just competing palm skills and inner strength, Elders win effortlessly. But comparing martial arts on he whole, than the difference is not that big anymore (although Elders would still win in the end).

People who favor DGSD often think very low about Trilogy fighters, too low in my opinion, while Trilogy-fans think too high about the level of martial arts of LOCH/ROCH/HSDS. I consider myself not a member of the Dragon Clan nor the Condor Clan. I can't imagine Xiao Feng beating the crap outta Guo Jing, but I can't see Guo Jing defeating Xiao Feng either.

&lt;font size="1"&gt;[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: Laviathan ]&lt;/font&gt;

<font size="1">[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: Laviathan ]</font>

[TigerWong]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"And is this "shift" significant enough to move the 2nd top-10 of DGSD to the level near the Trilogy's top-10? That depends on the impression you get from the novel... To me, the top-10 in DGSD were impressive enough for me to believe that the difference between the DGSD and the Trilogy was quite significant. And I think the best way for you to decide whether to agree w/ me is to read the novels yourself..." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, I see what you're trying to get at. It would be reasonable to assume that when the power curve "shifts" up to reflect that the DGSD fighters are above the LOCH fighters, it would make more sense that the 2nd tier fighters get shifted up proportionally. The key is how great that shift is, and I guess the best way to form an impression is to read the novel. But I do agree there is some good amount of shift just based on the KF/JY Impression on Stone example. Just not sure if it's enough to push 6M up to Great level.

Again it's impressions, but I don't see JMZ taking on all 5 Greats the way he did the 6M. Plus, if TristeCoeur was correct in saying that KF couldn't really take on Ding Cheun Chau, MYF, and IronHead, then KF definitely couldn't take on 5 fighters of that calibre. Which would imply that the 3 of them are better than the 6M (and the Greats according to your contention of 6M = Greats). And also question whether the assumption that the 6M were at the top of the DGSD 2nd Tier really holds true...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Just curious, I think you can read some Chinese, and have read some GL novels... why don't you try JY?" - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't tell you how many times I've been asked this question! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Can I flip it around and ask if you've read any GL novels? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

I guess the short and simple answer is that I like GL novels more. His characters, plots, and writing style is more interesting to me.

Also, although the adaptations aren't entirely accurate, I think I have a pretty good idea of what happens in each JY story and I like to be surprised when I read something. (This is why I've held off on reading the Twins so far, even though it's a GL novel).

I may get to a JY book someday, but first I want to read all GL's. I've only read about 25 or so, and theres more than 40 to go. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Some of the guys in the Chinese GL forums have read 40+.

<font size="1">[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

[Moinllieon]

So..... Lava, no more self imposed exile? <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> I knew you would turn around.

[Laviathan]

To Moin:

<IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Well, it was better for me and the other members if I would leave the Forums for a while. I was going through a rather rough time, and I should not take my agression and frustration into the forum, insulting people. It was a good thing to take some time off. And hey, my exams are finally over!

Besides, I never said I would quit SPCnet Forum, did I? <IMG SRC="smilies/naughty.gif" border="0">

<font size="1">[ January 10, 2003: Message edited by: Laviathan ]</font>

[Moinllieon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Laviathan:
<STRONG>To Moin:

<IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Well, it was better for me and the other members if I would leave the Forums for a while. I was going through a rather rough time, and I should not take my agression and frustration into the forum, insulting people. It was a good thing to take some time off. And hey, my exams are finally over!

Besides, I never said I would quit SPCnet Forum, did I? <IMG SRC="smilies/naughty.gif" border="0">
</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> Well, I hope you are feeling better all the way around and definitely don't quit the JY forum either. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[Athena]

I'm trying to round up now. All these long posts are really getting me exhausted. <IMG SRC="smilies/tired.gif" border="0"> I think that goes for you people too.
The initial reason for posting this topic was to hope that people (supporters of DGSD clan) would consider the window of opportunity that top of the LOCH trilogy may not be that weak from the DGSD top (excluding Nameless Old Monk, TianShan TongLao, WuYa Zi and Li QiuShui).
Up till now not any solid evidence can disproof the window of possibility does not exist.
To Kenny: Perhaps I have misinterpreted some of your posts but I got the feeling that you were (deliberately) sort of degrading the level of martial arts of the top in the LOCH trilogy for the sake of the argument. If that wasn't your intention just forget that you read the previous paragraph. But if you were I do find that a bit unfair. For instance saying that reverend YiDeng would have used 100% of his internal strenght to generate his voice whereas JiuMo Zhi wouldn't.------That was your conclusion, just like the fact that you didn't believe JiuMo Zhi would use his full potential.
Also the example with Guo Jing in ChongYang Shrine; Jin Yong didn't give us the idea that the wall helped Guo Jing----Again that was your conclusion, you were to keen on believing that Guo Jing couldn't perform a LDA action therefore you deducted for yourself that the wall helped him. As you said before to me that couldn't just accept my deduction without any solid evidence. But you want me to accept that the wall helped him but without evidence from the novel to back you up.
Well, I just wanted to point out that if you don't believe the theories, deduction of other people without any strong evidence. It's very difficult for others to also accept your conclusions without any solid proof from the novel.

Also just between brackets here. Semantics is quite an important facet in language and information transfer. For example the sentence: The hotdog ate the scyscraper. is syntactically correct. However semantically incorrect. Although this is a very extreme example, nonetheless sometimes if you interpret one word (character) differently in a sentence the entire meaning of the sentence could change.
The world famous example sentence would be: Joan whacked the man with an umbrella. There are 2 ways to read this sentence. (Can you tell me what those 2 ways are?) <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
Sorry for the lecture on semantics, but as a linguist I feel very strongly about this. <IMG SRC="smilies/lecture.gif" border="0"> Sorry!

In the end I would just like to say that all I wanted in this post was that people (perhaps especially Kenny <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> ) would consider that the discrepancy between the top of DGSD and top of LOCH trilogy might not be that big and also what I've argumented and deducted isn't entirely wrong. That I do have a point.
Also I do not belong to any faction not the DGSD faction nor the LOCH trilogy faction. I'm just a lone wanderer! <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

All I wanted was people perhaps acknowlegding my ideas are not altogether wrong. Is that too much to ask? <IMG SRC="smilies/crying.gif" border="0"> And that the window of possibility perhaps does exist that the tops of both novels do not differ that much from levels in martial arts.
Thank you all for putting up with my ranting!
<IMG SRC="smilies/wave.gif" border="0">

[Kenny]

Athena:
&gt; If Jiu MoZhi didn't try his best why would you say
&gt; that reverend YiDeng would? There are NO INDICATIONS
&gt; in the novel that say he was trying his best, same
&gt; goes for Jiu MoZhi.

If I remember correctly, I initially didn't say anything about whether YD had tried his best at all. I only questioned JMZ might not have tried his best. You then countered that since JMZ was trying to humiliate Shaolin, he most likely had, while because YD was only begging YingGu, he mostly likely hadn't. And I only argued that YD too might have very well tried his best as a counter-argument, (as I had explained that to TigerWong in one of my earlier posts.) Therefore, it seems that you're the one who first bring YD into this part of the discussion.

&gt; you're saying that because the author didn't write
&gt; the character using palm energy to disperse those
&gt; monks there is physical contact. You base that on....?

If it can be considered as "no physical contact" only because JY didn't explicitly written "there's physical contact", then I'm sure many scenes from romance novels in which a female char slaps a male char in the face can also be interpreted as attacks w/o physical contact... (not that I read romance novels... )

&gt; The fact that Jin Yong played with more characters,
&gt; descriptions, imagery in DGSD does not mean the
&gt; characters there are more powerful. They are just more
&gt; colourful for the readers.

Likewise, just because JY gave the Greats cooler nicknames doesn't mean they're more powerful. At least in DGSD, LDA

&gt; Why do say the reason they coughed up blood was because
&gt; of hitting the wal. IS IT NOT POSSIBLE BECAUSE THEY WERE
&gt; ALREADY HURT BY GUO JING'S PALM ENERGY? And were pushed
&gt; back against the wall by the "energy wind." Did Jin Yong
&gt; write that the wall helped Guo Jing.

No, but it's physics, and JY can't change that. It's not known if those two would still be injured had they not crashed into the wall, but we do know for certain that the wall helped GJ nevertheless.

&gt; No, you drew that
&gt; conclusion yourself based on examples of sports. Sorry
&gt; that doesn't convince one bit!!

I brought up examples in sports because it'd be easier for others to understand the situation.

&gt; DengFeng ZhaoJi and LuHuo ChunQing in this case refers to
&gt; YiDeng's level of YiYang Finger.

You just said that descriptons and imagery in DGSD are just there to make the story look more colorful for the readers, and that they don't make the characters more powerful... Yet when JY made fancy description about YD, you say it necessarily means YD had reached the highest level of YYFinger?

And you're overlooking LDA and the fact that XF could wipe the stone floor flat and say that they're only "decorations"...

Anyway, words like DFZJ are used to described strong fighters w/ great achievement in general, and should not be taken literally. And these descriptions are era-dependent.

&gt; The experts of Celestial Dragon Temple studied the same
&gt; art, but they never received such a description on their
&gt; levels of YiYang Finger.

Of course, the 6M weren't even close to the best in DGSD, so there's no reason for JY to use the same words to describe them, for it would be a joke to describe a 2nd-tier character in this way.

On the other hand, YD is one of the strongest in the Trilogy, so it makes sense for JY to say this about him. But it doesn't mean YD was actually more skillful in this technique than anyone else in any other era. Nor does it mean he had reached Level 1 specifically. In my opinion, Level 1 is reserved for those who was strong enough to practice all six 6MSJ, someone YD clearly wasn't.

&gt; Saying that Miao RenFeng for example has reached the level
&gt; of DengFeng ZhaoJi of martial arts. True in his own era he
&gt; was.

If you interpret DFZJ as absolute, then you have to always interpret it as something absolute. You just can't interpret it as absolute only when it comes to YD, and then interpret it as something relative when JY is using it to describe other fighters.

Lav wrote:
&gt; No, it just means that Xiao Senior, Xiao Junior and Daddy
&gt; Murong were extremely good.

No. The quote literally means the three of them had reached the peak and extremity in overall martial arts abilities.

Whether you agree w/ that depends on whether or not you take "the peak and extremity" literally. But you take it literally once, you better take it literally everytime you see these words.

&gt; But the above-mentioned examples were describing martial
&gt; arts in general, no particular styles were mentioned,

Why would JY need to mention any particular technique? The quote literally means the three of them had all reached the peak and extremity in overall martial arts abilities, which means they could fight better than or at least as well as anyone else in the world using their respective best technique!

But then, I'm certain that no reader would question that the Janitor Monk was superior to all three of them, and therefore, we learn not to take these words literally.

&gt; while in Yideng's case it was about the Art of Yiyang Finger
&gt; specifically.

It's irrelevent how JY was using these words to decribe a specific technique in one scene and overall martial arts abilities in another. What's important is that we now have to choose either to take these words literally, (and if we do, we have to take them literally everytime we see them,) or we don't and accept that JY was only using them to decribe good fighters w/ great achievements in general.

&gt; And again, I bring up the fact that the
&gt; distance between Duan Yu and Murong Fu was also 10 feet, the
&gt; same as in the case of Yideng and Golden Wheel Monk.

Much different! DY was forming invisible "swords", which were much more powerful but at the same time much denser than just "wind" that YD was generating, and thus they required much more inner power to form and to extent to as far a distance.

Look at it this way, although it's true that YD's wind could reach roughly the same distance as DY's sword, we see that the GWM had no problems blocking YD's "attacks" w/ his arms. If he was fighting DY, he wouldn't dare to come in contact w/ DY's "swords" or else he'll have his arm cut up in pieces.

Again, what DY formed required much more energy, so he had to spend much more energy just to reach the same distance that other fighters can reach with just "wind", but the payoff that DY got in return was an entity much more lethal than "wind".

&gt; Like I already said: in both cases there was hostility
&gt; between the "bad guys", Murong Fu saw You Tanzhi as a
&gt; potential rival,

Still, there's some difference in that the Mongolian mercenaries actually started fighting among each other as soon as GJ started losing the fight. Whereas MRF's main goal at the time was to eliminate XF, and had accepted the fact that he needed to cooperate w/ the IronHead to get that achieved.

&gt; he hold back "and tried to let IronHead
&gt; take most of the hard hits from XF" (like you mentioned).

But as it turned out, it was actually a tactically sound plan.

&gt; They were still attacking each other, so obviously they
&gt; could still cause damage at 10 ft distance.

Not necessarily. Like XF attacked MRB from 30+ ft away... It sent a shock through MRB's body when MRB blocked it w/ his arm. As much as I'm on DGSD-fighters' side in this debate, I wouldn't claim that XF could injure MRB from 30+ feet! Likewise, YD's attacks didn't seem to do much to GWM. At least XF sent a shock through MRB's body, YD and GWM didn't even do much to each other.

&gt; I actually agree with a lot of Kenny's points.

Umm... Thanks... <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Don't know why I felt like saying that... But I'm reaching my deadline I've set for myself, I'm also tired of this discussion, so at this time what you've just said is very good to hear.

&gt; But the most
&gt; power proponent of Long Distance Finger Attacks of DGSD
&gt; (Duan Yu) could cover a distance similar to the Finger
&gt; proponent of Trilogy (Yideng).

But the difference is that one is just "wind" while the other is a much concrete entity...

This is just my opinion, but I would say that if DY had learnt YYFinger and could use his internal energy properly, his finger "wind" could reach 30+ or 40+ feet, much like XF could w/ his palm "wind".

TigerWong wrote:
&gt; Again it's impressions, but I don't see JMZ taking on all
&gt; 5 Greats the way he did the 6M. Plus, if TristeCoeur was
&gt; correct in saying that KF couldn't really take on Ding Cheun
&gt; Chau, MYF, and IronHead,

Well, strictly speaking, the novel said KF would "eventually" be exhausted and lose the fight... we just don't know how long "eventually" is... When he was at Jui Yin Jong and attacked by 200-300 good fighters, he didn't seem to have much problem w/ stamina, so "eventually" could very well mean couple days, and anything can happen in a period that long.

And like I said, IronHead and MYF worked well together, (this was said in the novel, too...)

&gt; then KF definitely couldn't
&gt; take on 5 fighters of that calibre.

It depends on how well the 5 of them work together. If the 5 of them share the same disadvantage/weakness, and don't have an effective way to cover this problem or make up for each other's problems, it's possible for KF to find a way to take advantage of them. But then, this is all speculation.

&gt; Which would imply that the 3 of them are better than the
&gt; 6M (and the Greats according to your contention of 6M = Greats).

Not so. In the novel, MYF w/ his four assistants were defeated by Duen Yin Hing. Duen Yin Hing in the earlier part of the novel admitted he would lose to the Dali emperor, who was one of the five weaker monks among the 6M.

Ding was probably stronger than MYF, approximately at the level of the 5 weaker monks. IronHead had very strong inner power, but no technique. Overall I consider him also roughly in the same class as 6M.

&gt; And also question whether the assumption that the 6M were
&gt; at the top of the DGSD 2nd Tier really holds true...

It's pretty much true consider 6M &gt; DYH &gt; MYF, with Ding and Iron Head roughly at the same level.

&gt; Can I flip it around and ask if you've read any GL novels?

Yes, I have. It's just that I don't really like it.

&gt; I guess the short and simple answer is that I like GL novels
&gt; more. His characters, plots, and writing style is more
&gt; interesting to me.

But you seemed to be also interested in JY discussions... (as you're showing now...) And that's a good reason to start reading JY novels. On the other hand, when's the last time you see me discussing GL stuff? It's makes it much less surprising that I don't read GL as much as I read JY.

To Athena again:
I won't directly respond to most of the things you said in your last post, since I've already addressed most of them earlier here in this very same reply. I just like to say something regarding semantics. I do understand that it can be very important in certain cases. However, we still shouldn't overlook the obvious because of semantics. Take that "wipe" and "scrape" example, (sorry for bringing it back up... I'm only doing this for lack of a better example,) even though the two words might not mean the same thing in our everyday usage, the way they're used in the XF and the JueYuan scenes essentially were describing the very same action. It gets especially tiring if you've already spent several hours typing up a long post, but still have to spend another 10-15 minutes to explain how XF and JY were practically doing the same thing despite the difference in everyday meaning of these two words.

[Athena]

Now listen very carefully here Kenny: I think you're twisting my words a bit into your own benefit again.
I never said that the things the top in DGSD did was mere decoration on this part. I agree that you have a point in your theories, but with all due respect this is my personal point to you (I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD RESPOND ONE WAY OR THE OTHER TO THIS REMARK) YOU ARE DISMISSING EVERY TIME MY EXAMPLES, DEDUCTION, TWISTING MY MEANINGS, ALWAYS ADDING BUTS...., HAIRSPLITTING/NITPICKING. IS THAT FAIR TOWARS ME? ARE YOU THE ONLY ENTITLED TO HAVE A FULLPROOF THEORY? ARE YOU THE ONE THAT EXACTLY KNOWS WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANS WITH CERTAIN DESCRIPTIONS? IT SEEMS WHATEVER I SAY, LAVIATHAN SAYS OR SOMEONE SAYS IS IN YOUR EYES WRONG? OR AT LEAST YOU ARE GIVING ME THAT IMPRESSION!
So you're the only that knows what the author meant with scrape and wipe. And I'm just an ignorant reader who doesn't understand semantics! (Got it)
Guo Jing's example was just for you another opportunity to dismiss anything that might attack your theory.
Your LDS and LDA is THE criterion for Jin Yong characters everything else thought by mere linguists is altoghether wrong.
Againg YOU ARE ENTITLED TO READ THINGS IN YOUR WAY AND WE ARE EXPECTED TO SEE IT VIA YOUR PERSPECTIVE. BUT YOU REFUSE TO LOOK AT MATTERS THROUGH THE PERSPECTIVE OF OTHERS.

[Moinllieon]

Athena: just a very small point. You said that semantics are very important in terms of inparting information, and I agree. But by the same token, shouldn't the fact that JY used more colorful and descriptive language in DGSD a mean for him to convey that the characters are more powerful? After all, if the difference between "wipe" and uh... whatever the other word is ( <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> ) was enough semantics to convey purposeful differentiation by JY, then shouldn't the other differences in description be purposefully done by JY to say that DGSD character are better?

Also, this is the first time you are involved in a internet debate of this scope isn't it? This is what internet debate is like, every point is debated. Don't take it personally, please.

<font size="1">[ January 11, 2003: Message edited by: Moinllieon ]</font>

[TigerWong]

Well, it looks like this discussion is starting to wind down. I'll just focus on these last bits...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"On the other hand, YD is one of the strongest in the Trilogy, so it makes sense for JY to say this about him. But it doesn't mean YD was actually more skillful in this technique than anyone else in any other era. Nor does it mean he had reached Level 1 specifically." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the hypothesis is that those words were used to describe reaching the ultimate level in that martial art (in this case YYF), not YD himself. In that sense, Miao RenFeng, MYB, and SYS reaching the pinnacle of their respective martial arts doesn't contradict that they're not better than the Janitor Monk.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"In my opinion, Level 1 is reserved for those who was strong enough to practice all six 6MSJ, someone YD clearly wasn't." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not? Is it because you've already decided ahead of time that YD is not stronger than 6M, or was there some other evidence YD couldn't practice all six 6MSJ?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"Well, strictly speaking, the novel said KF would "eventually" be exhausted and lose the fight... we just don't know how long "eventually" is... When he was at Jui Yin Jong and attacked by 200-300 good fighters, he didn't seem to have much problem w/ stamina, so "eventually" could very well mean couple days, and anything can happen in a period that long." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure. But whether KF would "eventually" lose against the 3 or not, it seemed like an "iffy" situation. JMZ didn't seem to have much trouble against 5 (I could be wrong..). And KF should be at least as good as JMZ.

That's where the "contradiction" seems to lie for me. Based on your examples, it sounds like the 6M should be at least equal to KF's 3 opponents, and even better than MYF. But KF had a tougher time against a lesser number than JMZ had to deal with. Yes, you pointed out that the 3 supplemented each other well. But if you take that advantage away and add 2 more fighters of the same calibre, that should bring things back to square one. Namely, that KF had a harder time than JMZ with "same-level" opponents.

Which was why I questioned whether the 3 were better than 6M, kicking them out of the top of Tier 2. But you countered with some evidence, which led to more confusion for me (cause of the above examples)! <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"But you seemed to be also interested in JY discussions... (as you're showing now...)" - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just interested in getting a clear picture of how fighters rank, but not so much JY's plots/writing style (Although I don't hate them either). I mean, I'm also interested in stuff at the Comic Book Forum like whether Capt.Kirk in Star Trek could take on everyone in the universe, as long as his shirt's ripped up! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">"And that's a good reason to start reading JY novels." - Kenny</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I'm having more fun discussing stuff like this here. Another reason I haven't read JY is because I already know the story. That's why I held off on Twins and Luk Siu Fung too. But maybe I'll check out Ode to Gallantry someday, since I'm not too familiar with that and the story actually seems kinda interesting. And I did enjoy the Secret of Linked Cities, even though it was the translated summary. But maybe it was because it felt kinda similiar to a Gu Long story. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

<font size="1">[ January 11, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

[Athena]

To Moinllieon: If you're thinking that I'm sone soirt of spoiled brat who never engaged in any form of debate then you're sadly mistaken. I have engaged in numerous grand debates, discussions in school, university (and yes even on the Internet). I always was able to keep my temper and remain dignified. However if there are certain persons that keep fully insist on hair-splitting on me. That makes me agitated and if therefore you find me annoyed and spoiled that's your very right to do so.

[TigerWong]

Hey,

<IMG SRC="smilies/argue.gif" border="0">

Let's not get aggravated with each other and give everyone a group hug! <IMG SRC="smilies/grouphug.gif" border="0">

(Alright, this is getting too cheesy for me but it gives me a chance to use these obscure smilies <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">)

This whole thing was supposed to be fun and give everyone a chance to present some interesting ideas. Don't let it get to you.

Yes, you can call Kenny nit-picky (although I'd use the term meticulous), but would you have it any other way? One has to give very specific examples and counter-examples in order to narrow things down and get to some truth, if there even is one. He could have just said "let's just agree to disagree" and left it at that, but then we wouldn't have 5 pages of interesting discussion.

And I've been "nit-picking" Kenny about the 6M since page 2! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Sure, his tone could be more "forgiving" and not sound like such a know-it-all <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">.. but who cares? If he doesn't agree with something someone says, then yes, in his eyes that person is wrong (same way you think he's wrong about LDA). He believes what he believes. Why would he change his mind just to be nice? And of course it's not foolproof. Whether or not one prefaces everything with IMO and other diplomatic terms, it's a given that anything someone says is his/her opinion anyway.

Of course, it seems like theres nothing short or an Act of God that would get Kenny to change his mind on JY...or anything for that matter. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> I wonder how someone actually managed to sway him on the Carefree Sect Elders!

And Kenny's "tone" is nothing compared to the downright nasty tones one can encounter in the Comic Book forums (you were right, Ken <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">). I've learned that people can get really touchy on the topic of how powerful Sauron is from LOTR...

<font size="1">[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

[Laviathan]

¤l ¤ê ¡R §g ¤l ©M ¦Ó ¤£ ¦P ¡A ¤p ¤H ¦P ¦Ó ¤£ ©M

Confucius said: "True gentlemen remain in harmony despite their differences, while inferior men are in disharmony even if they agree with each other."

[Athena]

It was not my intention to turn this into an ugly arguement. I don't want to become some sort of fishwife who throws terrible expletives at other people. However I'm just here to express my feelings.
Did someone die and make him the Supreme Oracle of Jin Yong? Why is it that the way I read and use example is always WRONG! But when he explains it in his way it is RIGHT! If that's the case there really no point in debating further is there?
What is the logic here?
Also when I'm wrong and my fellow debater is right or has a point I'm not afraid to give him credit. Again Kenny has a point he has devised a rather interesting yet rather strong key point. However it is not flawless. However, why does he continue to repudiate my findings? Are my findings really altogether wrong?!?
If so just say it then it is my turn to retire from the WuXia discussion realm and never return!

With frostly aloof,

An annoying linguist who probably will never return anymore!
<IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0">