Martial arts comparison between DGSD era and LOCH/ROCH era

[Moinllieon]

But Confucious also mentioned that women are inferior to men and that changes against tradition (even if it is for the better) is bad. So I take everything he says with a grain of salt. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Laviathan:
<STRONG>¤l ¤ê ¡R §g ¤l ©M ¦Ó ¤£ ¦P ¡A ¤p ¤H ¦P ¦Ó ¤£ ©M

Confucius said: "True gentlemen remain in harmony despite their differences, while inferior men are in disharmony even if they agree with each other."</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Laviathan]

Moin,

Everything? That's a lot of salt... Are you joining the Sea Sand Clan of HSDS? <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Confucius was of course a very conservative person, but it was mostly due to the Song dynasty scholar Zhu Xi that his teachings became so rigid. But yeah, a lot of his ideas were quite silly from our modern perspective.

TO ATHENA,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> If so just say it then it is my turn to retire from the WuXia discussion realm and never return!

An annoying linguist who probably will never return anymore! </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who says you're annoying? I understand why you're a bit upset... Kenny's tone is so adamant it can really piss people off! But I'm sure he doesn't intend to belittle you or insult you or anything.

And don't say things like "never coming back", do you realise that you're probably the most respected person here on this forum?

I retired because I insulted people, and because my best friend is dying... You did nothing wrong, neither did Kenny. Peace.

[TristeCoeur]

chilled people, chilled <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Don't get so upset, Athena. I have heated discussions almost daily with a guy on another forum (mainly on computer topics), he is rarely able to comprehend my arguments (cos he can't be bothered or too lazy or something, he jsut sticks to his opinions all the time) but without arguing with him, my day is boring <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"> hehehe Just take things easy <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> You can be right but you can't always convince everyone. If it gets to a dead end like this, just ignore the other person <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

Btw Kenny, could you please use proper quoting ? Like this: [ quote] [ /quote] (without the spaces). Your current method of quoting is HORRIBLE <IMG SRC="smilies/yikes.gif" border="0"> It's so hard to read your posts. I really admire those who have been able to read those and reply to you from the beginning of this thread, considering the crazy length of them <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

[PJ]

Don't blame Athena. Kenny does seem to disagree with a lot of things, which can be frustrating.

Kenny can't use the quote function, as he mentioned earlier.

[TigerWong]

Athena:

As Lav said in one of the posts earlier, this isn't really about changing other people's minds or a contest to win an argument. It's to provide a bunch of interesting points and allow readers of this thread access to data to let them make up their own minds.

So nothing we've said changed Kenny's mind. So what? I'm sure there are readers who might be reading your posts and find that it clicks with them.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Why is it that the way I read and use example is always WRONG! But when he explains it in his way it is RIGHT!</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to who? Other readers or Kenny himself? I don't think any other reader has specifically posted that they agreed with everything Kenny said and disagreed with everything you said. And even if they did, that's their own opinion. And if you're referring to Kenny, of course he thinks his arguments are right. Because they're his arguments.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Also when I'm wrong and my fellow debater is right or has a point I'm not afraid to give him credit.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine. It's because you saw a point that swayed you.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">However it is not flawless.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody said it was flawless.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">However, why does he continue to repudiate my findings? Are my findings really altogether wrong?!?</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess according to him, it still is. But do you expect him to agree with some of the things you've said just because you happen to agree with some of the things hes said? If no one has swayed him, that's just the way it is. Again, it's not a contest and theres no official scorekeeper. (Unless you're saying he actually is a bit convinced of some of our points but is too stubborn to admit it, but that seems rather childish)

His tone can be frustrating. But don't allow it to get to you.

I hope you don't leave this forum just because of this little thread. I think you have a lot to contribute.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Did someone die and make him the Supreme Oracle of Jin Yong?</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, someone did give him the title of one of the Greats in the JY forum. But so is Moinllieon and Ken Cheng. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

If it makes you feel better, I vote to bestow you the title of Supreme Prophetess and Professor Emeritus of Jin Yong. Much more impressive than a mere Oracle. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

<font size="1">[ January 12, 2003: Message edited by: TigerWong ]</font>

[Moinllieon]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by TigerWong:
<STRONG>
Hmm, someone did give him the title of one of the Greats in the JY forum. But so is Moinllieon and Ken Cheng. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, they made me the "Southern Emperor" and I'm like: "What's up with that?" Because I'm nothing like YiDeng. If anything, I should be either Northern Beggar or whatever title Zhou BuoTong got (my mind is not working right now after I have just played the longest game of NS I have ever been a part of) with my complete and utter childish behavior. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[someguy44]

Wow! This has turned out to be some ugly debate huh?

Athena, don't take everything Kenny said personally. That's always been the way he debates. Besides, I really didn't see anything he said to be directed towards you personally. It's just that the two of you have differing views when it comes to looking at DGSD and triology fighters.

I'll be more convince personally on which fighters are better when JY's new revise novels are out (not that I could read it anyways <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">).

Btw, I do agree with Kenny's views on semantics.

J

P.S. Athena, did you know that Kenny has even pissed me off in the past from our debates years ago (as did I to him) and he's my friend! <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

[Ken Cheng]

LDS? I did a little too much LDS at Berkeley back in the 60s. I don't do it anymore, but I still get flashbacks sometimes.


<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

<font size="1">[ January 14, 2003: Message edited by: Ken Cheng ]</font>

[Laviathan]

Hi peeps! Just wanted to bring this discussion up again. The whole argument was basically about Jueyuan being inferior to Xiao Feng because they performed similar feats, but Jueyuan needed tools while Xiao Feng could do it very easily. Another topic was Long Range Attacks during Northern (DGSD) and Southern Song (LOCH/ROCH) era.

I will not adress the LDA-topic, for I cannot find anything useful about it in LOCH and ROCH. I will now only say something about the "scraping the floor" dilemma.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> The other example many people use is that of reverend JueYuan of ROCH and HSDS and Xiao Feng removing those characters or chess board left behind by Duan YanQing and He ZuDao.
A lot of people say that Xiao Feng was superior because he could wipe away those characters without any pain and without usage of buckets of water. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many people see this as convincing evidence that Xiao Feng is superior to Jueyuan. Taking into account that Jueyuan's internal power is more or less equal to Guo Jing and Yang Guo (as stated in ROCH), this would mean that Xiao Feng is superior to the Greats of the Condor Trilogy as well. I cannot find anything to prove otherwise, but I would like to point out one specific thing.

In Chapter 19 of Smiling Proud Wanderer, the following scene occured:

向
问天道：“咱们来到梅庄，实出于一片至诚，风兄&#243 51;若再过谦，对四位前辈反而不敬了。
你华山派‘紫霞神功’远胜于我嵩山派内功，武林&#2001 3;众所周知。风兄弟，你站在我这两只
脚印之中，双脚不可移动，和丁兄试试剑招如何？&#82 21;他说了这几句话，身子往旁边一让，
只见地下两块青砖之上，分别出现了一个脚印，深&#21 450;两寸。原来他适才说话之时，潜运内
力，竟在青砖上硬生生踏出了两个脚印。黑白子、&#31 171;笔翁、丹青生三人齐声喝彩：“好功
夫！”眼见向问天口中说话，不动声色的将内力运&#210 40;了脚底，而踏出的足印之中并无青砖
碎粉，两个足印又一般深浅，平平整整，便如细心&#38 613;刻出来一般，内力惊人，实非自己所
及。

Xiang Wentian too did use his internal power to make imprints in the stone floor. His foot prints in the stone were about 2 inches deep.

From this we can conclude that, at least according to the above-mentioned theory, Xiang Wentian too is superior to Jueyuan, which automatically makes him better than Yang Guo and Guo Jing also. Based on this kind of reasoning, Xiang Wentian then probably should be in the same category as Xiao Feng, while Ren Woxing is clearly superior to Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo. And don't even get me started on Dongfang Bubai...

<IMG SRC="smilies/evillaugh.gif" border="0">

[Charlieboy]

haha, managed to brig this thread back

Lav, what are you doing? throwing seeds of doubt to the foundations of the deterioration theory?

you anarchist you, I hate you <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[Laviathan]

Charlieboy, I'm just pointing out this inconsistency in the "Jin Yong universal rules of martial arts". Hope people in the future won't compare Jueyuan with Xiao Feng anymore.

I still love ya. <IMG SRC="smilies/love.gif" border="0">

[Ren Wo Xing]

The martial artists in XAJH are obviously better than in DGSD <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

[Ken Cheng]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Ren Wo Xing:
<STRONG>The martial artists in XAJH are obviously better than in DGSD <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"></STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly. Some of the best fighters in SOD were using degraded hand-me-downs from the DGSD era. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[Laviathan]

Ken Cheng:

Of course the general level of martial arts during DGSD was higher than the SOD Era. And that's the thing: somehow, a feat which can be performed during DGSD (Northern Song) was considered impossible during HSDS (Southern Song/Yuan), but 200 years later during SOD (Ming dynasty) it miraculously becomes possible again.

[Ken Cheng]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Laviathan:
<STRONG>Ken Cheng:

Of course the general level of martial arts during DGSD was higher than the SOD Era. And that's the thing: somehow, a feat which can be performed during DGSD (Northern Song) was considered impossible during HSDS (Southern Song/Yuan), but 200 years later during SOD (Ming dynasty) it miraculously becomes possible again.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>


I once posed this question in the JY Discussion Forum: whether or not there was a temporary arrest or even reversal of the "Deterioration Theory" during the SOD era. Kenny, Kwok, and several others did not think so. But it is strange that degraded versions of two key skills from the DGSD era, Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging and Kup Sing Dai Fat (the degraded form of Bak Ming Sun Gung), as well as Dook Goo Kau Bai's swordsmanship skills . . . all of which had been out of circulation for 200 or 300 years . . . suddenly returned out of nowhere, only to disappear again after the SOD era.

There are times when I almost think that SOD takes place is an alternate timeline independent of all other JY novels. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[Laviathan]

To Ken Cheng:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> I once posed this question in the JY Discussion Forum: whether or not there was a temporary arrest or even reversal of the "Deterioration Theory" during the SOD era. Kenny, Kwok, and several others did not think so. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Kenny, Kwok and the others. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> Generally speaking, the level of martial arts does deteriorate throughout the Jin Yong timeline.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> But it is strange that degraded versions of two key skills from the DGSD era, Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging and Kup Sing Dai Fat (the degraded form of Bak Ming Sun Gung), as well as Dook Goo Kau Bai's swordsmanship skills . . . all of which had been out of circulation for 200 or 300 years . . . suddenly returned out of nowhere, only to disappear again after the SOD era. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Xixing Dafa was developed by combining the bits and pieces of information handed dow by the Dali Duan Family and the Xingshu School, so it probably took many years for this art to come into existence. After Ren Woxing's death, Linghu Chong was the only one who knew this skill. It was considered to be a very immoral art by Linghu Chong, so he would not pass it on to his students. Furthermore, it is a very dangerous art to practice, not many people could survive the process.

Dugu Nine Swords: No explanation possible. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Yijinjing: This is a major inconsistency in Jin Yong stories. In DGSD it was mentioned that this art was handed down by Boddhidarma in an Indian Sanskrit text which no one could master except for a crazy monk. But during SOD, the Shaolin abbot told Linghu Chong that during the Tang Dynasty this art has already been understood and handed down successfully, and it was this same art that he himself practiced. So, the two versions of the history of Yijinjing in DGSD and SOD do not match at all.

But Yijinjing did not dissapear after SOD. In DOMD, it was mentioned that the Shaolin monks still practiced it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> There are times when I almost think that SOD takes place is an alternate timeline independent of all other JY novels. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, you know better than that, of course. In the last Jin Yong novel, DOMD, it was mentioned that Wei Xiaobao's "corpse dissolving powder" was created by Ouyang Feng. Later in the novel, an old Shaolin monk remembered the old legends about Dugu Qiubai and Linghu Chong. So the timeline is the same.

But that makes these little goof-ups even more illogical. Let's face it, even Jin Yong is inconsistent sometimes.

[TigerWong]

Nothing matches the goof-ups and inconsistencies found in Gu Long novels, where the dead suddenly come back into the story without fuss, and characters existing in the past and the future at the same time. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[Laviathan]

Tigerwong:

Yeah, my good friend Mencius told me that Hua Zhenzhen supposedly died in Legend of the Bat, but later appeared in another Chu Liuxiang story without any explanation.

Also, in Third Young Master's Sword, the Emei School was female organization, only women were allowed to join their ranks. But in Full Moon Saber, the Emei school suddenly had more male members than female disciples.

[TigerWong]

Laviathan:

Right, but it wasn't Hua ZhenZhen. It was Gum Ling Zhi. She died in Legend of the Bat, but suddenly reappeared in the next story (they mentioned the past adventure w. the Bat Prince in this story so we can be sure it took place after), and then in the following story it was reaffirmed that she died with the Bat Prince! So somewhere in between, we stepped into the Twilight Zone. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Then theres the issue of time compression in Gu Long novels. In the last CLH novel, they mentioned Sai Moon Cheur Sheut as an established legend. In the last LSF novel, someone told me they mentioned CLH in the past tense. What the heck?

Another annoying trend in GL novels is when he doesn't resolve a subplot. In WuLin WaiShi, Zhu QiQi's little brother mysteriously disappears. It was a big deal because his acupunture points were pressed and everyone was wondering who kidnapped him. Throughout the story, Zhu QiQi would sometimes mention that she was worried about him (although not nearly as much as she SHOULD be), but then it just never got resolved. As if Gu Long just decided that he didn't know how to tie it up, so he figured maybe the readers would just forget about it.

Weirdness exists across all levels when you're dealing with his novels. I guess that's part of the attraction for me. <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[Laviathan]

Tigerwong:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Right, but it wasn't Hua ZhenZhen. It was Gum Ling Zhi. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, my mistake.

And I posted a question about Legendary Twins on the Gu Long forum, please check it.

Thank you!