Greatness of Dugu

[duguxiaojing]

I was on Wuxia world and read a thread arguing the creadiblity of Dugu. I know its impossible to truly tell how great he was but do u guys think Jin Yong created him to be the most powerful in his whole universe ? I mean supposedly he was undefeated throughout his life YG and FQY were througly impressed by his feats ( i mean even his sword tomb was thought 2 be impressive) mere impressions of his skills created 3 martial artist who were argubally the strongest in their era so does that put him over the top of all martial artist and was that JY intention?

[SkineePanda]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
I was on Wuxia world and read a thread arguing the creadiblity of Dugu. I know its impossible to truly tell how great he was but do u guys think Jin Yong created him to be the most powerful in his whole universe ? I mean supposedly he was undefeated throughout his life YG and FQY were througly impressed by his feats ( i mean even his sword tomb was thought 2 be impressive) mere impressions of his skills created 3 martial artist who were argubally the strongest in their era so does that put him over the top of all martial artist and was that JY intention?

I don't know but I'd bet he was very arrogant to write down all that self-description in his tomb before he died, "with this sword I bla bla bla bla", "by this time, I can use a blade a grass, drops of urine as my weapons". And assuming that he self named himself "Begging/seeking For Defeat". Too bad he was so unknown after he died.

Why is he so unknown? Maybe he was just a overrated swordsman with a lot of "imagination" on fighting philosophy, that only managed to fight mediocre fighters? But that's just a theory.

[duguxiaojing]

"I can use a blade a grass, drops of urine as my weapons"

ROFLMAO
u seem 2 have quite a low opinion of him how do u explain the inguenity of his theories or the fact that his training procedures produced one of the greatest fighteres of the JY universe?

[rabadi]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
...explain the inguenity of his theories or the fact that his training procedures produced one of the greatest fighteres of the JY universe?

The ingenuity of his theories was created by Jin Yong, not by Dugu himself

[CC]

I sense........ GJ vs YG coming up on this thread.....

[rabadi]

Okay, seriously, I think Dugu was probably one of the best martial artist in JY's universe, but personally I would not go saying that he was the most powerful, because we do not know that much about his actual life. All we know about him was based on his own message/legacy that YG found. I would much prefer the Sweeper Monk as the most powerful in JY's universe.

See Demon sword Vs Custodian Monk for more opinions.

[S Beaver]

Maybe he was just a overrated swordsman with a lot of "imagination" on fighting philosophy, that only managed to fight mediocre fighters?

with a name like "dugu qiu bai", even if he doesn't go seek for competition, all the good fighters would seek him. So he definitely would've fought the best fighters of his era.

[Ken Cheng]

I'm going to kick off the Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor debate.

Seriously, the proof is in the pudding and Dook Goo Kau Bai still falls short of proving himself the "greatest" fighter in the Jin Yong canon. First, we never see him in action . . . and we don't know the level of competition he was up against. Was there anybody the level of Kiu Fung or ROCH Gwok Jing that he went up against? Nobody knows. What about his followers? Yeung Gor, a brilliant martial artist in his own right, used the essence of Dook Goo Kau Bai's martial arts philosophies and grew to be . . . about equal to the other Greats of ROCH. Ling Wu Chung became a great swordsman of his time, but unable to defeat the heavyweights of his era like Dung Fong But Bai.

On the other hand, we've *seen* the Janitor Monk do things that other great martial artists can't even imagine.

[S Beaver]

Yeung Gor, a brilliant martial artist in his own right, used the essence of Dook Goo Kau Bai's martial arts philosophies and grew to be . . . about equal to the other Greats of ROCH. Ling Wu Chung became a great swordsman of his time, but unable to defeat the heavyweights of his era like Dung Fong But Bai.

YG and LHC only learned parts of dugu qiu bai's martial arts. i think both admitted at one point or another that they wouldn't be comparable to dugu himself. also, YG never progressed to dugu qiu bai's highest level of sword skill and LHC had only been practicing for maybe a year before he had to fight against people like DFBB

[sixdays]

to kencheng:

the concept of DGQB's martial arts is incredibly innovative. it is because of his methods above all others that YG was able to reach the level of the Greats in ROCH by the end. also, i remember you saying that the level of the Greats is much lower in LOCH than in ROCH...so that means that YG is able to reach that more advanced level by the time he is 38 or so. that's a level of progression as fast as QZ + 9yin. i'd hardly call that unproven or overrated...

for goodness sake, the guy beat back the waves of the OCEAN. the OCEAN, man. and that was just YG...shouldn't DGQB be much better?

you know, everyone says that sweeper monk is the best fighter in JY universe, and for the most part i'd have to agree. other than maybe DaMo, no one can even come close to the internal energy this guy built up. but after all, he was basing his kungfu on shaolin ideas...DGQB thought up his own techniques. i give him a lot of credit for his creativity. he's definitely not a mediocre fighter, and deserves to be in the "hall of JY unbeatables".

[CC]

The whole point is that nobody knows! Who knows how DG learnt his kung fu? For all we know he stumbled onto a cave with the instructions for DuguJiuJian instructions on the wall, ate 5 poisonous toads, got bitten in the butt by the grandson of the DGSD Iceworm, met the condor and ate lotsa gall bladders..... Point is, he _sounds_ original, but how much of his kung fu was 'borrowed' we don't know.

I agree with what Ken said. There is no prove that DG's ironsword is any more powerful then YG's ironsword. Or that DG with the wooden sword can beat YG with the wooden sword. Of course if I were to bet, I would say that DG is significantly better then YG. He probably is up there just below sweeper monk. But I bet sweeper monk would thrash him.

[Dirt]

DuGu QuiBai is unarguably a great martial arts theorist. But nothing says that he was a great martial art practitioner. Both YG and LHC, while great swordsmen in their time, could not defeat other martial artists without the neigong they finally cultivated. The former through snake gall bladders and the latter by Xi Xing Da Fa and YJJ.

For all we know, DGQB was insane and only defeated opponents in his own mind through the martial arts he thought up.

[sixdays]

that's simply ridiculous. after all, the legend SAYS damo made up shaolin martial arts...but for all we know, he stole all the moves off of a little boy in africa and then took all the credit. the legend says that XF learned HL18Z from the first beggar clan leader...for all we know, the beggar clan leader had sex with a dragon and that's how he "subdued" him. sounds ridiculous? it is.

the point is, DGQB's martial arts theory is too good to have been simply a hallucination. you forget, LHC was not a lifelong practitioner of DG9J, and he didn't even have sufficient internal energy to back it up. all told, he probably practiced DG9J for less than 3 years...actually, wasn't it more like 1 year? yet he was able to stand up to someone who had been training KFBD all their lives. the fact that he could not defeat DFBB by himself reflects nothing on the greatness of DGQB...that's like saying that HL18Z is crap because SQS could not defeat anyone with it.

also, YG's sword skills were completely non-contested...this guy wandered xiang hu for 16 years, to the point that he became FAMOUS as condor hero Yang Guo. you don't become famous by being defeated, people. after all, no one has ever challenged YG to a swordfight. i doubt anyone in the condor trilogy is up to his sword skill, period.

to dirt:

Both YG and LHC, while great swordsmen in their time, could not defeat other martial artists without the neigong they finally cultivated. The former through snake gall bladders and the latter by Xi Xing Da Fa and YJJ.

um, just who couldn't YG defeat? even with shallow neigong, he was able to defeat a master to the level of GongSunZhi. after 3 months of eating gall bladders and training in the stream, he could crush GF's sword with a sleeve. at this point, even HR was in awe at the progress that he made in only 3 months. after 16 years? he knocked out JLFW's wheel with a normal sword, something that no hero could have done at the heroes' meeeting. with sadpalms, he defeats JLFW in 3 moves.

um...when did he really lose?

about LHC --- true, he could not singlehandedly defeat DFBB. but is that so bad? this guy has horrible internal energy and has only been training DG9J for a year. again, he's going up against an opponent that NO one can beat alone, not even RWX. remember, he defeated half of the martial arts community with XWT, even though he had NO internal energy to speak of at all. if anything, the fact that he was even in the fight with DFBB without being blown to shreds is a testament to DG9J.

For all we know, DGQB was insane and only defeated opponents in his own mind through the martial arts he thought up.

on this point, i don't COMPLETELY disagree. after all, DGQB could be like ZBT, who clearly has skill but is not really tested except by the other Greats. however, his playful personality would definitely make him say, "i was undefeated everywhere. with these scissors, i defeated the bearded little man in passionless valley". all this is entirely possible.

however, the dude changed his name to DGQB..."seeking a loss". with this name, he roamed xiang hu all his life, searching for an opponent. even his tone of writing was simply sad, rather than arrogant. true, his opponents may not have been up to par to even, say, YG, but that says nothing about his martial arts. after all, Huang Shang never met the DGSD boys, yet 9yin is still respected as one of the greatest martial arts of all time. why is it that someone who thought up techniques where:

a) defeated all weapons techniques under the sun
b) had an internal energy training regimen that acquired growth as fast as QZ + 9yin
c) had a technique where one could easily use a wooden sword to chop down trees (which barely scratches the surface of wooden sword art)
d) let him wield a 100+ pound sword as if it were a toy
e) where even his BIRD was an elite martial artist

why is it that someone with a technique like 9yin is so respected, yet DGQB's techniques are considered trash? after all, YG barely defeated HD with a part of 9yin; yet YG can defeat everyone with only a part of DG techniques. before you say "well, that's cuz he had higher internal energy later"...what allowed him to gain that internal energy? it was DGQB's training.

one more thing: DGQB has to at least be as strong as YG. why? because the condor could have only learned this kungfu by observation. just by the fact that he can teach YG all of these things means that DGQB not only thought up, but meticulously trained with his techniques for decades.

you don't seriously believe that the condor is the origin of DG kungfu, do you?

[Dirt]

you don't seriously believe that the condor is the origin of DG kungfu, do you? [/B]

Tiger, Dragon, Crane, Monkey, Eagle.

Not the creator necessarily, but maybe the inspiration.

[ToOn99]

Yeah DGQB was invincible, YG was also invincible, and LHC was also Invincible ....end of story

[superboy]

I will sort of lean toward that DGKB would likely be better than the Greats, but there is not enough information to suggest how good he is. He might or might not be all that impressive.

[duguxiaojing]

Anybody above the geats is impressive. I kinda agree wit u on rest though we never seen him in action thats the problem. His sword theories are incredible though no one can argue against that. The question is did Jin Yong create him to be the ultimate fighter? i think u can see it 2 ways 1.Jin Yong wrote the passages then he is proboally the greatest 2.Dugu wrote the passage and thought 2 much of himself.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
i think u can see it 2 ways 1.Jin Yong wrote the passages then he is proboally the greatest 2.Dugu wrote the passage and thought 2 much of himself.

I'd pick #2. He was likely to be quite good, but when I read his message I also think that he was quite arrogant.

I think some people in the internet speculated before that there was probably a meeting (a fight) between Huang Shang (HS) and DGQB. It was pure speculation, but if this turns out to be true then I'll put him (DGQB) just slightly above HS. Now, comparing HS to the Sweeper Monk, I think HS would not have a chance (just my gut feeling ). So, again on the "greatest fighter in JY's universe" issue, I would rather place my bet on the Sweeper Monk.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by rabadi
It was pure speculation, but if this turns out to be true then I'll put him (DGQB) just slightly above HS.

And, if I understand the timeline on that theory correctly, that was Wong Seung *before* he had completed the development of the 9 Yum Jen Ging. This would indeed have been an interesting battle if it had occurred.

[rabadi]

Found the article! See here: DookGook KauPai vs. Wong Seung