The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[CancerLuna]

Bet you didn't expect to see *this* thread rising back to the top!

I've revived it to discuss one very specific issue in comparing Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor's martial arts development up to the age of twenty.

At the end of LOCH, with "only" Gong Nam 7 Freaks martial arts, limited Cheun Jen Sect training, Left/Right Hand Technique, the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms, and incomplete 9 Yum Jen Ging training, Gwok Jing was powerful enough to credibly battle two Greats up to 600 total strokes at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, making him the seventh most powerful martial artist in the world at the time. This was Gwok Jing, supposedly a "dumb" guy who learns slowly.

To the point just before he first encountered the Divine Condor in ROCH, Yeung Gor, having learned the complete Cheun Jen Sect and Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts systems, a little bit of Ha Mo Gung, a little bit of 9 Yum Jen Ging, Dog Beating Stick Technique, Jade Flute Sword Technique, and Divine Snap Technique, was still not necessarily powerful enough to defeat Lee Mok Sau one-on-one. That's considerably weaker than Gwok Jing was at the end of LOCH, and Yeung Gor was supposed to be a smart guy who learned fast.

How did did twenty-year old Yeung Gor not attain a higher level than twenty-year old Gwok Jing did prior to acquiring Dook Goo Kau Bai's legacy? Was Gwok Jing's fuller knowledge of the 9 Yum Jen Ging the difference?

GJ started when he was a kid, YG started around 14 which means GJ actually spent more years working on his craft.

[Ken Cheng]

GJ started when he was a kid, YG started around 14 which means GJ actually spent more years working on his craft.

I thought Yeung Gor's greater intelligence would offset the time spent by Gwok Jing.

Notably, Yeung Gor advanced *much* faster in just four years with Little Dragon Girl than Gwok Jing did in three times as many years with the Gong Nam 7 Freaks (quality of teachers and their skills probably matters here as much as the relative talents of the learners).

Once they started learning the "good" stuff (e.g. Greats-created martial arts), however, Gwok Jing suddenly gets his big breakthroughs faster for some reason.

[pannonian]

I thought Yeung Gor's greater intelligence would offset the time spent by Gwok Jing.

Notably, Yeung Gor advanced *much* faster in just four years with Little Dragon Girl than Gwok Jing did in three times as many years with the Gong Nam 7 Freaks (quality of teachers and their skills probably matters here as much as the relative talents of the learners).

Once they started learning the "good" stuff (e.g. Greats-created martial arts), however, Gwok Jing suddenly gets his big breakthroughs faster for some reason.

Guo Jing went through lengthy periods (a month or more each) of extremely intensive tutoring under Hong Qigong and Zhou Botong, whose martial arts would become the foundation of his own. I don't think any other character in the translated Jin Yong novels got as much dedicated one-to-one tutelage from practitioners of that level.

[Banh Mi]

Guo Jing's techniques either matched him or synergised with his other techniques quite well. Dragon Palms went perfectly with his straight forward blunt force nature as well as L/R technique was down his aisle. QZ internal base helped him learn 9 Yin, and he is the only person who thoroughly learned the 9 Yin. Observing Greats fight each other helped him understand the more complex ideas of 9 Yin in action. Then observing the Big Dipper formation helped him make sense of the other portion of 9 Yin theory.

YG's exposure is alot more eclectic not complimenting each other, often not well matched to him and he didn't get to put any depth into most of them. The toad stance was used infrequently by him, almost never as a personal choice. He had a small glimpse of 9 yin, never put much time into it. A small glimpse of reverse 9 yin, not much time into that. QZ and AT sword play with little depth to it. Divine Finger Snap, but that could be treated like the Toad stance, rarely utilized, barely any practice put into it. Dog beating stick, but he never really uses it.

Guo Jing's skills fit together almost like a jigsaw. And his first response is usually a dragon palm backed by 9 Yin, followed by more dragon palms. We saw how flawed GJ was when he didn't completely learn the dragon palms, and how versatile and well rounded he became after he finished learning it. YG learned the first steps of many techniques he dabbled in, they didn't compliment each other, until he minced them into the sad palms. He had no first response technique that he could rely on for all situations.

[tape]

It's interesting to note that after reading the 9 Yin, he noticed that there were theoretical flaws in the martial arts of Huang Yaoshi and Ouyang Feng, and after practicing HIS, Yang Guo thought it was more advanced than any martial arts he had learned.

Those two instances showed the Greats were not as perfect as they seemed, and the advantages that GJ and YG had over them -- having more advanced martial arts theories at the age of 20 than they ever do, at their disposal.

[pannonian]

Guo Jing's techniques either matched him or synergised with his other techniques quite well. Dragon Palms went perfectly with his straight forward blunt force nature as well as L/R technique was down his aisle. QZ internal base helped him learn 9 Yin, and he is the only person who thoroughly learned the 9 Yin. Observing Greats fight each other helped him understand the more complex ideas of 9 Yin in action. Then observing the Big Dipper formation helped him make sense of the other portion of 9 Yin theory.

YG's exposure is alot more eclectic not complimenting each other, often not well matched to him and he didn't get to put any depth into most of them. The toad stance was used infrequently by him, almost never as a personal choice. He had a small glimpse of 9 yin, never put much time into it. A small glimpse of reverse 9 yin, not much time into that. QZ and AT sword play with little depth to it. Divine Finger Snap, but that could be treated like the Toad stance, rarely utilized, barely any practice put into it. Dog beating stick, but he never really uses it.

Guo Jing's skills fit together almost like a jigsaw. And his first response is usually a dragon palm backed by 9 Yin, followed by more dragon palms. We saw how flawed GJ was when he didn't completely learn the dragon palms, and how versatile and well rounded he became after he finished learning it. YG learned the first steps of many techniques he dabbled in, they didn't compliment each other, until he minced them into the sad palms. He had no first response technique that he could rely on for all situations.

Huang Yaoshi apart, Yang Guo's tutoring under the Greats he encountered weren't exactly exhaustive. Hong Qigong made sure he taught only enough to demonstrate the Dog Beating Stick's theory, not enough to use it in practice. When Ouyang Feng taught him the Toad Stance, it ended with Yang Guo getting knocked out, and when he woke, he wasn't even sure if it was all a dream.

[Ian Liew]

Huang Yaoshi apart, Yang Guo's tutoring under the Greats he encountered weren't exactly exhaustive. Hong Qigong made sure he taught only enough to demonstrate the Dog Beating Stick's theory, not enough to use it in practice. When Ouyang Feng taught him the Toad Stance, it ended with Yang Guo getting knocked out, and when he woke, he wasn't even sure if it was all a dream.

Didn't Yang Guo learn some of the practical part of Dog Beating Stick by watching Huang Rong teach Lu Youjiao? Huang Rong didn't mind the kids watching because without the theory, watching the practical strokes was pointless, but she didn't know Yang Guo already knew the theory. It probably wasn't complete, but he learned enough to probably surpass Elder Lu already (as could be seen when during the fight against Huo Du, Elder Lu missed a few opportunities to the disappointment of both Huang Rong and Yang Guo).

It still wasn't enough to make it a technique he could rely on, but I think he avoided using it more out of respect for the heritage of the technique, rather than any real lack of understanding or skill.

[Doc Kwok]

Didn't Yang Guo learn some of the practical part of Dog Beating Stick by watching Huang Rong teach Lu Youjiao? Huang Rong didn't mind the kids watching because without the theory, watching the practical strokes was pointless, but she didn't know Yang Guo already knew the theory. It probably wasn't complete, but he learned enough to probably surpass Elder Lu already (as could be seen when during the fight against Huo Du, Elder Lu missed a few opportunities to the disappointment of both Huang Rong and Yang Guo).

It still wasn't enough to make it a technique he could rely on, but I think he avoided using it more out of respect for the heritage of the technique, rather than any real lack of understanding or skill.

It's the other way around - H7G taught YG all the practical techniques, but because he didn't have the theory he didn't have a clue how to use what he learnt. HY was teaching the LYJ the verbal formula when YG and co. were eavesdropping, and taught him the remaining secrets later when they were under attack from the gold-wheel monk. YG's knowledge of the technique was essentially complete - he just lacked experience and practice.

[Doc Kwok]

When Ouyang Feng taught him the Toad Stance, it ended with Yang Guo getting knocked out, and when he woke, he wasn't even sure if it was all a dream.

I don't recall that happening in the novel. Is that from an adaptation?

[Ian Liew]

It's the other way around - H7G taught YG all the practical techniques, but because he didn't have the theory he didn't have a clue how to use what he learnt. HY was teaching the LYJ the verbal formula when YG and co. were eavesdropping, and taught him the remaining secrets later when they were under attack from the gold-wheel monk. YG's knowledge of the technique was essentially complete - he just lacked experience and practice.

Oh yeah - I forgot about that part where Huang Rong taught him the rest of the skill intentionally. So he really didn't practice the technique just out of respect for the exclusiveness the technique was meant to carry (or probably because he could never find a stick handy!). Is it possible that he passed the skill down to the Yellow-dressed girl who taught it to Shi Huolong's daughter, or was it explicitly mentioned that the girl learned it from her father? Or am I imagining things when I think of Shi Hongshi using Dog-beating stick at some point in HSDS?

[pannonian]

I don't recall that happening in the novel. Is that from an adaptation?

It was on Peach Blossom Island, during the period when Yang Guo wandered off on his own when IIRC Huang Rong tried to discipline him by withholding food. Ouyang Feng had followed him to the island, and woke him up to teach him the Toad Stance to defend himself with. Reading the last bit, I remembered a little wrong, and Ouyang Feng had taught him the internal cultivation techniques in Jiaxing. From Chapter 3 - Seeking Tutelage at Mount Zhong Nan:

That night he slept in the cave and after he had slept for a while, he
awoke suddenly and saw Ouyang Feng come into the cave. He said, “Son,
I’ve come to teach you kung fu in order for you to avoid getting beat up
by the two little Wus.” Yang Guo was happily surprised and followed him
out of the cave, only to see him crouch on the ground, and gave out a
few “gu” sounds before pushing out two palms. Yang Guo tried to follow,
but his palms and kicks weren’t the same. Ouyang Feng curled is hand
into a fist and threw it out, Yang Guo couldn’t avoid it and it landed
on top of his head, the pain was severe and he got up.

After being hit on the head, he woke up; it seemed it was all just a
dream. He felt his head, and came across a bump. It ached severely and
he sighed repeatedly, thinking, “It looks like father has recovered and
has escaped from the bell. When is he going to come and collect me, and
teach me kung fu so I can avoid being bullied by others?”

He went out of the cave, and looked up at the sky, and saw many stars
hanging within the branches of the trees, and remembered that Ouyang
Feng had taught him kung fu. He had forgotten about this; he crouched
down, gave out a few “gu” calls; he wanted to use the formula of the
“Toad Stance” that Ouyang Feng had taught him in Jiaxing. He tried to
use his fists and legs, but whatever he did, he couldn’t do this stance.
He searched his mind, and threw out two palms, like he did in his dream,
but that was a completely different thing.

[Ken Cheng]

Those two instances showed the Greats were not as perfect as they seemed.

The Greats were never perfect, nor did they ever claim to be. They were just a hell of a lot better than everybody else in wulin at the time.

[Doc Kwok]

It was on Peach Blossom Island, during the period when Yang Guo wandered off on his own when IIRC Huang Rong tried to discipline him by withholding food. Ouyang Feng had followed him to the island, and woke him up to teach him the Toad Stance to defend himself with. Reading the last bit, I remembered a little wrong, and Ouyang Feng had taught him the internal cultivation techniques in Jiaxing. From Chapter 3 - Seeking Tutelage at Mount Zhong Nan:

That night he slept in the cave and after he had slept for a while, he
awoke suddenly and saw Ouyang Feng come into the cave. He said, “Son,
I’ve come to teach you kung fu in order for you to avoid getting beat up
by the two little Wus.” Yang Guo was happily surprised and followed him
out of the cave, only to see him crouch on the ground, and gave out a
few “gu” sounds before pushing out two palms. Yang Guo tried to follow,
but his palms and kicks weren’t the same. Ouyang Feng curled is hand
into a fist and threw it out, Yang Guo couldn’t avoid it and it landed
on top of his head, the pain was severe and he got up.

After being hit on the head, he woke up; it seemed it was all just a
dream. He felt his head, and came across a bump. It ached severely and
he sighed repeatedly, thinking, “It looks like father has recovered and
has escaped from the bell. When is he going to come and collect me, and
teach me kung fu so I can avoid being bullied by others?”

He went out of the cave, and looked up at the sky, and saw many stars
hanging within the branches of the trees, and remembered that Ouyang
Feng had taught him kung fu. He had forgotten about this; he crouched
down, gave out a few “gu” calls; he wanted to use the formula of the
“Toad Stance” that Ouyang Feng had taught him in Jiaxing. He tried to
use his fists and legs, but whatever he did, he couldn’t do this stance.
He searched his mind, and threw out two palms, like he did in his dream,
but that was a completely different thing.

That really was a dream, not reality. OYF had already started teaching YG the toad stance on their second meeting in Jiaxing. There are some inaccuracies in that translation that might have given you the wrong impression.

e.g. "That night he slept in the cave and after he had slept for a while, he awoke suddenly and saw Ouyang Feng come into the cave." -> "That night he slept in the cave, lying down befuddled for a while, when he suddenly saw Ouyang Feng enter the cave" (notice that there is nothing about awakening).

"Yang Guo tried to follow, but his palms and kicks weren’t the same." -> "Yang Guo trained along with him, feeling that as he thrust his palms and kicked with his legs that everything worked just right" (completely the opposite meaning).

"After being hit on the head, he woke up; it seemed it was all just a dream." -> "With another bang on his head, he woke up with a fright, it turned out that he dreamt what just happened" (no 'seemed' about it).

[Doc Kwok]

Oh yeah - I forgot about that part where Huang Rong taught him the rest of the skill intentionally. So he really didn't practice the technique just out of respect for the exclusiveness the technique was meant to carry (or probably because he could never find a stick handy!).

Probably the latter - he didn't hesitate to use it against the Wu brothers, or against Fan 1 Weng (the guy with the long beard).

Is it possible that he passed the skill down to the Yellow-dressed girl who taught it to Shi Huolong's daughter, or was it explicitly mentioned that the girl learned it from her father? Or am I imagining things when I think of Shi Hongshi using Dog-beating stick at some point in HSDS?

She was holding onto the stick, but never used it (or any martial art for that matter). Unless you count that 'unofficial sequel' 9 Yin 9 Yang, which had her wielding the 18 dragon palms .

[pannonian]

That really was a dream, not reality. OYF had already started teaching YG the toad stance on their second meeting in Jiaxing. There are some inaccuracies in that translation that might have given you the wrong impression.

e.g. "That night he slept in the cave and after he had slept for a while, he awoke suddenly and saw Ouyang Feng come into the cave." -> "That night he slept in the cave, lying down befuddled for a while, when he suddenly saw Ouyang Feng enter the cave" (notice that there is nothing about awakening).

"Yang Guo tried to follow, but his palms and kicks weren’t the same." -> "Yang Guo trained along with him, feeling that as he thrust his palms and kicked with his legs that everything worked just right" (completely the opposite meaning).

"After being hit on the head, he woke up; it seemed it was all just a dream." -> "With another bang on his head, he woke up with a fright, it turned out that he dreamt what just happened" (no 'seemed' about it).

There's a reference in a later chapter that it wasn't a dream. From Chapter 7 - Chong Yang’s Markings:

He thought, “The
child is most probably on Peach Blossom Island.” He got a small boat and
sailed to the island. He didn’t dare to approach during the day, so at
night he anchored in a bay behind a mountain. He knew he wasn’t a match
for Guo Jing and Huang Rong, plus he didn’t know that Huang Yaoshi
wasn’t on the island. Even if his skills were twice as good, he wouldn’t
be able to fight all three of them. During the day he hid in a cave on a
wild piece of land, and patrolled at night. The layout of the island was
ingenious; he didn’t dare run around where ever he pleased. Over the
year, he was extremely cautious, in the light of day he didn’t dare to
take one step out of the cave, no one discovered him. One night, after
his one meeting with Yang Guo, he heard the Wu brothers chatting and
then he knew that Guo Jing had sent Yang Guo to the Quanzhen sect to
learn martial arts.

[Ken Cheng]

I always thought TVB made up that part about Au Yeung Fung looking for Yeung Gor on Peach Blossom Island in ROCH. So he actually *did* go to the island for that purpose in ROCH?

Moreover, Au Yeung Fung's memory seems unusually lucid here: he remembers Gwok Jing and Wong Yung, and actually knows that Wong Yerk See lived on/owned the island. I thought in his warped state of mind, Au Yeung Fung no longer remembered these people or associated them with any particular place.

[Doc Kwok]

One night, after
his one meeting with Yang Guo, he heard the Wu brothers chatting and
then he knew that Guo Jing had sent Yang Guo to the Quanzhen sect to
learn martial arts.[/indent]

That phrase isn't in the original novel.

如此一年有餘，總算他謹慎萬分，白天不敢出洞一步，蹤跡始終未被發覺，直到一日晚上聽到武修文兄弟談話，才 知郭靖送楊過到全真教學藝之事。

Like this for easily a year, with him taking the utmost care, during daytime not taking a step out of the cave, his traces were never discovered, until one night he heard the Wu brothers talking, that he knew that Guo Jing had sent Yang Guo to the Quanzhen sect to learn the arts.

This line is in all 3 editions (except the 3rd edition says 武敦儒兄弟, referring to the older Wu brother instead).

[CancerLuna]

I thought Yeung Gor's greater intelligence would offset the time spent by Gwok Jing.

Notably, Yeung Gor advanced *much* faster in just four years with Little Dragon Girl than Gwok Jing did in three times as many years with the Gong Nam 7 Freaks (quality of teachers and their skills probably matters here as much as the relative talents of the learners).

Once they started learning the "good" stuff (e.g. Greats-created martial arts), however, Gwok Jing suddenly gets his big breakthroughs faster for some reason.

I wouldn't compare GJ's experience with Great Martial Arts to YG's experience with them. GJ's experience had a lot of dedicated teaching and time spent on it. YG on the other hand only had two 'true' training experiences (at age 20). One was with XLN and as we can see, he advanced much faster in four years than GJ did in his many years. The other was when YG encounters the HIS where he again has a much more powerful breakthrough.

GJ (LOCH) zero (many years of training) -> LOCH sub-great (after intense training)
YG (ROCH) zero but better than GJ (4 years of training) -> ROCH pre-16 years great (after intense training)

I made another thread in the past reasoning that YG actually reached the ROCH post-16 great level after five or so years also (so he'd be around 25), once again indicating he's one of the fastest heroes to improve (matching even XF maybe).

[Ken Cheng]

I made another thread in the past reasoning that YG actually reached the ROCH post-16 great level after five or so years also (so he'd be around 25), once again indicating he's one of the fastest heroes to improve (matching even XF maybe).

While Kiu Fung was one of the most accomplished martial artists ever, I don't know if he was a particularly *fast* learner. When he first appears in DGSD, he's already thirty, and he'd trained with the Shaolin monk Yeun Fu since the age of ten or so. I'm sure it didn't take Kiu Fung the full twenty years to arrive at the level he attained when he first appeared in DGSD, but nothing in his experiences suggested that he made huge gains in a very short amount of time.

[tape]

I think the fact that he never lost to anyone, even in his youth, suggests he got pretty powerful, pretty fast.