The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[CancerLuna]

WCY,HYS,YD,OYF,HQG,XYS,MRB,JMZ took them about 60-90 years without lucky encounters.

If XF doesn't learn fast at 30, no one does.

[Dirt]

Qiao Feng had the advantage of being taught by a premier master from a premier martial arts school at an early age. Of the Condor heroes (we don't know the backgrounds of the Greats), only Zhang Wuji had such an advantage. And even then, it was for a far shorter period than Qiao Feng.

[tape]

Qiao Feng had the advantage of being taught by a premier master from a premier martial arts school at an early age. Of the Condor heroes (we don't know the backgrounds of the Greats), only Zhang Wuji had such an advantage. And even then, it was for a far shorter period than Qiao Feng.

If we're talking about advantages, Xiao Feng seemed to make his name with regular (relatively speaking) Shaolin martial arts before he learned Dragon Palms, which in DGSD was merely a top tier skill with many competitors.

The other protagonists like Wuji, Yang Guo, Guo Jing, Linghu Chong etc all only became the best after they learned the best skill of their time, with nobody else having access too. Xiao Feng made do with what he had.

[Dirt]

I must amend myself. Guo Jing had a premier archery teacher from an ethnic group that depended heavily on archery and he certainly excelled in archery.

And it would make sense that Qiao Feng didn't learn elite martial arts at the beginning. You always start with basics and then move to more elite skills. Zhang Wuji only got to learn, I think, 9 Yang Gong because his life depended on it.

While Guo Jing was very lucky to have good teachers at a later age, both Yang and Zhang had to figure out and teach themselves their elite skills martial arts (HIS and 9 Yang Shen Gong respectively).

[CancerLuna]

Qiao Feng had the advantage of being taught by a premier master from a premier martial arts school at an early age. Of the Condor heroes (we don't know the backgrounds of the Greats), only Zhang Wuji had such an advantage. And even then, it was for a far shorter period than Qiao Feng.

ZWJ doesn't really count since ALL of his powerups were lucky encounters. I can definitely say YG and XF had interesting learning speeds now that I think of it. YG at 4 years of regular training under XLN is pretty impressive when you consider XF's many years of training under top tier teachers.

[Dirt]

I don't see Zhang as luckier than Yang. Zhang was lucky to find 9YSG and Yang was lucky to meet the Condor and find DGQB's swords. Ultimately, both had to train for years and years to become proficient and strong.

Come to think of it, considering it took Zhang 5 years to reach Greats level internal energy and it took Yang longer than that (even with snake gallbladders), can HIS really be said to be a better art than 9YSG? In terms of offensiveness it would have to be since 9YSG has no offensiveness at all, but internal building I'd say 9YSG is superior.

[CancerLuna]

I don't see Zhang as luckier than Yang. Zhang was lucky to find 9YSG and Yang was lucky to meet the Condor and find DGQB's swords. Ultimately, both had to train for years and years to become proficient and strong.

Come to think of it, considering it took Zhang 5 years to reach Greats level internal energy and it took Yang longer than that (even with snake gallbladders), can HIS really be said to be a better art than 9YSG? In terms of offensiveness it would have to be since 9YSG has no offensiveness at all, but internal building I'd say 9YSG is superior.

ZWJ went from 0 - > great level internal and then got lucky and had a powerup from a bag. On the otherhand, YG had to: train traditionally (for for years), lost an arm and had to train to reach sub-great level, then another six years to reach Great-level internal. Of course all the heroes are lucky in their own way, but honestly, ZWJ is much luckier when it comes to powerups.

HIS isn't an art to train internal energy. I think YG's ocean training method should be around the same level as ZWJ's 5 year 9yang practice being 6 years.

On topic:

I think GJ's internal energy improvement is very overrated within the scope of the novel. Thinking in terms of how fast GJ improves relative to YG, I am of the belief YG would beat GJ.

[PJ]

I feel like he wanted to convey the theme of average guy pulling through with hard work and some luck, except we see too many other cases where people practice nonstop for decades and don't reach GJ's LOCH level. He wrote him as an untalented character, but the events don't support it. I was wondering if that would be considered bad writing, or we just have to take it for what it's worth.

I agree. It doesn't add up, which happens often in JY's writing. WCY's level is another famous example. I think GJ's case is better though, since we're supposed to use GJ's dumb-but-accomplish-a-lot feat as an inspiration. As often the case with inspirations, if you dig deep you'll find holes.

[Banh Mi]

I think an interesting subject is Yeluqi. He learnt from great tier ZBT at a very young age until he developed some maturity. Considering how much ZBT loves martial arts, and how much Guo Jing benefited from him can we assume that there was alot of incentive for ZBT putting alot of effort in Yelu? He grew up to be relatively equal to YG. Then later on he was taught the dragon palms, and since he became the leader of the Beggar clan he must have learnt the dog beating stick too.

It's a shame we don't see how he's like at the end of his life. Here we have a character who was trained by a great level person, then passed on top tier martial arts.

As for Xiao Feng being powerful. Come on, there must be atleast hundreds of other characters who've had the same background as him. He rose above them all. As for him learning the dragon palms. I'm under the impression that unlike the other characters, he earned it with how much potential he demonstrated, and on his existing merit. Dragon palms didn't make him powerful, he was taught dragon palms because he is powerful. If anything, with all the suspicion that was regarded him, if he wasn't the best of the best, his teachers would gladly have found someone else to learn their greatest art and satisfy their conscience by having him as a high position beggar member.

All the other characters became great because of their art. They either came across it by luck, and it had no bearings on their potential or they were lucky some powerful person took pity on them and taught them powerful arts to make up for their scrubiness. Xiao Feng was given no favours, he worked for and earned everything he got.

[PJ]

Considering how much ZBT loves martial arts, and how much Guo Jing benefited from him can we assume that there was alot of incentive for ZBT putting alot of effort in Yelu?

it was said that Yelu Qi, at least as an adult, bored Zhou with his serious attitude, so Zhou avoided him whenever possible. It's possible his childhood personality was more akin to Zhou's liking such that Zhou gave him more attention.

It's a shame we don't see how he's like at the end of his life. Here we have a character who was trained by a great level person, then passed on top tier martial arts.

What we do know is that he was the last person to master all 18 Dragon Palms, so he should have reached a higher level than Shi Huolong. That's about as much as we can say for sure.

[Banh Mi]

Yeah, but that should still give him a few good years, say more years than the time between GJ meeting Ma Yu and ZBT. He's the only real character that was trained from a young age by a Great if we should include the 9yin or not. I don't know, I just think that even amongst people that learned from Greats, GJ stands out alot more.

[Dirt]

Ouyang Ke was also trained from childhood by a Great. He wasn't that Great. And he probably got more one on one time with his Great than Yelu Qi did with his. Hard work still matters which is probably why Ouyang Feng was going to lock Ouyang Ke up for 5 years to only practice martial arts (that might be just in the adaptation). If Yelu Qi locked himself away for 5 years, maybe he could become a Great.

[Ken Cheng]

Ouyang Ke was also trained from childhood by a Great. He wasn't that Great.

Yeah...in fact, he wasn't even that great (lowercase "g").

[i_fotted]

Not really a fair fight IMO. YG is handicapped so GJ has an edge. If YG had both his arm, I'd have my money on him.

[Ken Cheng]

Not really a fair fight IMO. YG is handicapped so GJ has an edge. If YG had both his arm, I'd have my money on him.

The lost arm ultimately didn't prove to be a disadvantage; the empty sleeve essentially became a sword.

[tape]

The lost arm ultimately didn't prove to be a disadvantage; the empty sleeve essentially became a sword.

I never bought this one. Sure he developed better than normal sleeve skills because he didn't have an arm, but I highly doubt he would be better off without an arm than with, all other things being equal. His experiences might not have led him to Dugu and all that if he had two arms, but that's like saying most characters are better off falling off a cliff or getting mortally wounded because it led them to some sort of secret manual.

While I pretty much think YG ~ GJ, if he suddenly regrew an arm, I'd think he'd be greater than GJ simply because he was equal to him before.

[Ken Cheng]

I never bought this one. Sure he developed better than normal sleeve skills because he didn't have an arm, but I highly doubt he would be better off without an arm than with, all other things being equal. His experiences might not have led him to Dugu and all that if he had two arms, but that's like saying most characters are better off falling off a cliff or getting mortally wounded because it led them to some sort of secret manual.

While I pretty much think YG ~ GJ, if he suddenly regrew an arm, I'd think he'd be greater than GJ simply because he was equal to him before.

Yeah, and if Gwok Jing had three arms, he'd be better than Yeung Gor with two. We'd better stick to what they actually have (or don't have) rather than giving either one hypothetical advantages.

Moreover, the sleeve was pretty formidable; in some ways, it was better than having a natural arm (because you can swing it with impunity, which you might not do with a flesh and blood arm).

[tape]

Yeah, and if Gwok Jing had three arms, he'd be better than Yeung Gor with two. We'd better stick to what they actually have (or don't have) rather than giving either one hypothetical advantages.

Moreover, the sleeve was pretty formidable; in some ways, it was better than having a natural arm (because you can swing it with impunity, which you might not do with a flesh and blood arm).

I only brought it up because you said the arm didn't prove to be a disadvantage...because it clearly was.

[Ken Cheng]

I only brought it up because you said the arm didn't prove to be a disadvantage...because it clearly was.

It wasn't. Yeung Gor didn't lose a single fight because he was missing that other arm. On the other hand (sorry; bad pun), he defeated numerous enemies with that empty sleeve. The way he used that sleeve, it was almost an improvement over having a flesh and blood arm (except maybe during mealtime or grooming time, when having a sleeve truly wasn't better than having an arm/hand).

[tape]

It wasn't. Yeung Gor didn't lose a single fight because he was missing that other arm. On the other hand (sorry; bad pun), he defeated numerous enemies with that empty sleeve. The way he used that sleeve, it was almost an improvement over having a flesh and blood arm (except maybe during mealtime or grooming time, when having a sleeve truly wasn't better than having an arm/hand).

Well he pretty much didn't lose a single fight after HIS, so that's not really a great argument. The HIS and later his overall martial arts is the reason he didn't lose, not because he lost an arm.

He didn't defeat "numerous" enemies with his sleeve. He used it as a weapon because "why not?", not because it was particularly powerful. The sleeve is no more powerful than a person holding a sleeve or whip would be. Anybody can choose to have his sleeve-like weapon, but he can't choose to have an arm.