The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[FeilongZ]

Sad Palms and HIS are mutually exclusive. You can't use HIS to power up your Sad Palms. Doesn't work that way. Once Yang Guo picked his path to Great hood, he abandoned the HIS because it would actually hinder his progress. If it didn't, he would have incorporated it into his Sad palms, something like Sad sword.

Regardless, who, among Great-level fighters, uses a special weapon like the HIS, the Dragon blade, or the Heaven Sword? None.

Back to the GJ vs. YG battle, Sad Palms are equal to Dragon Palms. Nothing more, nothing less. The author indicated so in many places. Oh and YG also needs to be sad. A happy YG might lose to GJ.

I think HYS was comparing YG's Sad Palms to GJ's Dragon Palms power-wise, not overall martial arts or techniques.

I think happy Sad Palms vs Dragon Palms would be a prolonged fight, a few hundred stances.
However, once YG becomes melancholic and the ultimate moves are unleashed, GJ will be defeated.

[Western Eccentric]

I think HYS was comparing YG's Sad Palms to GJ's Dragon Palms power-wise, not overall martial arts or techniques.

I think happy Sad Palms vs Dragon Palms would be a prolonged fight, a few hundred stances.
However, once YG becomes melancholic and the ultimate moves are unleashed, GJ will be defeated.

Yeeep HYS reflected the "power" and ZBT the "technique" so in terms of overall skill Sad Palm > Dragon Palm IMHO at least on paper but I doubt this "advantage" would work against GJ Dragon Palm which infused with 9 Yin and L/R Hand Skill so they are "equal" no one could beat each other except YG use HIS..

[WhiteLotus]

Yeeep HYS reflected the "power" and ZBT the "technique" so in terms of overall skill Sad Palm > Dragon Palm IMHO at least on paper but I doubt this "advantage" would work against GJ Dragon Palm which infused with 9 Yin and L/R Hand Skill so they are "equal" no one could beat each other except YG use HIS..

The key thing about 18DP is its emphasis on energy conservation. The palm strikes can never be committed with full force, so that plenty of reserves can be drawn. This characteristic is not really associated with the Sad Palms. In fact, in his exchanges with Eastern Heretic, YG did go all out with the technique during the end to force him to reveal the whereabouts of the 'Divine Nun of the Southern Sea'. What this would mean is that Heretic is basing his assessment of strength on GJ's 30%-50% powered palms against YG's full power palms.

Coupled with the fact that he also has 9 Yin to bolster his stamina even more, and you're dealing with one hell of an energiser bunny here.

[FeilongZ]

The key thing about 18DP is its emphasis on energy conservation. The palm strikes can never be committed with full force, so that plenty of reserves can be drawn. This characteristic is not really associated with the Sad Palms. In fact, in his exchanges with Eastern Heretic, YG did go all out with the technique during the end to force him to reveal the whereabouts of the 'Divine Nun of the Southern Sea'. What this would mean is that Heretic is basing his assessment of strength on GJ's 30%-50% powered palms against YG's full power palms.

Coupled with the fact that he also has 9 Yin to bolster his stamina even more, and you're dealing with one hell of an energiser bunny here.

Highly not true, what about the pre-16 palm exchange between Guo Jing and Jinlun Fawang.
Was GJ using only 30 to 50% of the Dragon palms against Fawang's 9th Level Dragon Elephant Prana Palms at 100%?

[WhiteLotus]

It wasn't mentioned but I would imagine so, given that's what 18DP is all about. I'm going by the latest edition btw; haven't read the second edition in a good while. There were two palm exchanges between GJ and GWM in fact, with the latter ending up slightly worse for the wear because his palm technique didn't match GJ's.

[Ken Cheng]

Highly not true, what about the pre-16 palm exchange between Guo Jing and Jinlun Fawang.
Was GJ using only 30 to 50% of the Dragon palms against Fawang's 9th Level Dragon Elephant Prana Palms at 100%?

It's more a stamina thing, and I think it would work like this: Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk both start out at 100%. After the first palm clash, which would probably be a draw if both sides unleash full strength, the Golden Wheel Monk would have expended a considerable degree of his power and would need time to recover to 100%. In contrast, Gwok Jing would have expended proportionately less power, and require much less time to recover to 100%. If the fight drags on, the Golden Wheel Monk will exhaust himself much more quickly while Gwok Jing remains at or near full strength much longer. Long, drag-out fights favor Gwok Jing, but trying to KO him quickly is also very difficult. This quality makes Gwok Jing one of the most dangerous fighters of his time.

[EdenResident]

It's more a stamina thing, and I think it would work like this: Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk both start out at 100%. After the first palm clash, which would probably be a draw if both sides unleash full strength, the Golden Wheel Monk would have expended a considerable degree of his power and would need time to recover to 100%. In contrast, Gwok Jing would have expended proportionately less power, and require much less time to recover to 100%. If the fight drags on, the Golden Wheel Monk will exhaust himself much more quickly while Gwok Jing remains at or near full strength much longer. Long, drag-out fights favor Gwok Jing, but trying to KO him quickly is also very difficult. This quality makes Gwok Jing one of the most dangerous fighters of his time.

Absolutely true. Fighters with a stamina boost from great internal energy manuals like 9Yin/9Yang always have an inherent advantage over others at the same level. In the worst case, they can simply drag out the fight and outlast their opponents. As long as the difference in technique is not so big, they simply cannot lose.

[Western Eccentric]

Well I think "stamina boosted" from manual like 9 Yin/Yang only "work" if the two combatants in the same level fight for internal energy "contest" i.e OYF vs H7G or Wuji vs Du Monks but in overall fight is not very "useful"..

[Ken Cheng]

Well I think "stamina boosted" from manual like 9 Yin/Yang only "work" if the two combatants in the same level fight for internal energy "contest" i.e OYF vs H7G or Wuji vs Du Monks but in overall fight is not very "useful"..

Actually, it is. If two fighters are of comparable skill and power, but one tires out relatively quickly while the other doesn't, the one with greater stamina will have the advantage. Even in modern day martial sports such as boxing and MMA, this is true.

[Western Eccentric]

Actually, it is. If two fighters are of comparable skill and power, but one tires out relatively quickly while the other doesn't, the one with greater stamina will have the advantage. Even in modern day martial sports such as boxing and MMA, this is true.

Agree..
But I think it's might be not "work" in GJ vs YG vs Wuji case which the one with better technique and overall skill would win not who have the "best" stamina except they engaged in internal energy contest which great stamina give you great endurance and toughness

[Ken Cheng]

Agree..
But I think it's might be not "work" in GJ vs YG vs Wuji case which the one with better technique and overall skill would win not who have the "best" stamina except they engaged in internal energy contest which great stamina give you great endurance and toughness

These guys are so closely matched that any fair fight between them is not going to resolve quickly. Endurance is highly likely to come into play.

[Western Eccentric]

These guys are so closely matched that any fair fight between them is not going to resolve quickly. Endurance is highly likely to come into play.

TBH I never think YG have less stamina than GJ or Wuji though he didn't have stamina boost like 9 Yin/Yang because I believe the DGQB training method not only give him great internal but also great "endurance"..

[Ken Cheng]

TBH I never think YG have less stamina than GJ or Wuji though he didn't have stamina boost like 9 Yin/Yang because I believe the DGQB training method not only give him great internal but also great "endurance"..

Nothing about Dook Goo Kau Bai's training techniques suggests extended longevity or endurance....only overwhelming force or speed depending on whether it's the Heavy Iron Sword route or the Dook Goo 9 Swords route. Maybe those snake organs that Yeung Gor consumed help, but that is also never really hinted at or explicitly described.

[Western Eccentric]

Nothing about Dook Goo Kau Bai's training techniques suggests extended longevity or endurance....only overwhelming force or speed depending on whether it's the Heavy Iron Sword route or the Dook Goo 9 Swords route. Maybe those snake organs that Yeung Gor consumed help, but that is also never really hinted at or explicitly described.

There is the reason why I think YG stamina not less than GJ/YG..

- When he use his roar to force Ying Gu out JY describe that YG roar more loader in long time instead of going "weaker"

- During final battle in Xiangyang
In that day I think when YG and XLN heard GX was capture and used her as a "decoy" they are immediately ran as fast as possible to Xiangyang from Passionless Valley and since the distance between Xiangyang and Passionless Valley more than 200 Li (100 km) so YG might be running non stop and when he arrive he engaged in life-death duel with JLFW and getting minor "injury" then he chase Mongke Khan horse and kill him

[Western Eccentric]

There is the reason why I think YG stamina not less than GJ/YG..

- When he use his roar to force Ying Gu out JY describe that YG roar more loader in long time instead of going "weaker"

- During final battle in Xiangyang
In that day I think when YG and XLN heard GX was capture and used her as a "decoy" they are immediately ran as fast as possible to Xiangyang from Passionless Valley and since the distance between Xiangyang and Passionless Valley more than 200 Li (100 km) so YG might be running non stop and when he arrive he engaged in life-death duel with JLFW and getting minor "injury" then he chase Mongke Khan horse and kill him

Which I mean only someone with great stamina and endurance could doing what YG did during final battle in Xiangyang just IMHO..

[FeilongZ]

Nothing about Dook Goo Kau Bai's training techniques suggests extended longevity or endurance....only overwhelming force or speed depending on whether it's the Heavy Iron Sword route or the Dook Goo 9 Swords route. Maybe those snake organs that Yeung Gor consumed help, but that is also never really hinted at or explicitly described.

Pre-16 YG with HIS vs QQR: YG with the HIS was getting stronger and stronger as the fight goes on.

Post-16 YG vs HYS: YG's palms were like ocean waves, stronger every stance.

Post-16 YG vs ZBT: ZBT was getting more tire as the fight dragged on, but YG was not.

The above show that the DGKB's training methods in the waterfall and ocean increased YG's internal energy and endurance.

[FeilongZ]

Which I mean only someone with great stamina and endurance could doing what YG did during final battle in Xiangyang just IMHO..

Great references to the book.
I was going to write about post-16 YG's roar too.

[Western Eccentric]

Pre-16 YG with HIS vs QQR: YG with the HIS was getting stronger and stronger as the fight goes on.

Post-16 YG vs HYS: YG's palms were like ocean waves, stronger every stance.

Post-16 YG vs ZBT: ZBT was getting more tire as the fight dragged on, but YG was not.

The above show that the DGKB's training methods in the waterfall and ocean increased YG's internal energy and endurance.

I think it's more due YG young age which give him such "advantage" not a "pure" of stamina/endurance..

[FeilongZ]

Nothing about Dook Goo Kau Bai's training techniques suggests extended longevity or endurance....only overwhelming force or speed depending on whether it's the Heavy Iron Sword route or the Dook Goo 9 Swords route. Maybe those snake organs that Yeung Gor consumed help, but that is also never really hinted at or explicitly described.

After HYS telling YG that the Divine Nun of the South Sea does not exist, post-16 YG was running nonstop like crazy for several days without eating or drinking.
That equals craziness and endurance

[Ken Cheng]

I think it's more due YG young age which give him such "advantage" not a "pure" of stamina/endurance..

Indeed. Between them, Wong Yerk See and Chow Bak Tung were like a combined 200 years old by that point.