The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Anonymous]

Before I begin to counter arguments here, I would like to ask a few questions [still on my GJ vs YG break]:
1. After 16years, who has more innerPower: HuangRong or LittleDragonGirl? [Important that experts answer this. thx. ]
.
2. In LOCH, can HuangRong beat Ou Yang Ke/Hak? Mu Chu Fung [White Bone Claw Lady]? Who can HuangRong beat at most?
.
3. Did 1Deng and H7G got the full version of the sanskrit 9Yin?
.
Thx gys.

[Noodles]

Originally posted by Anonymous

1. After 16years, who has more innerPower: HuangRong or LittleDragonGirl? [Important that experts answer this. thx.

In the novel (the second edition at least), XLN told YG that she has made no improvements in her martial arts in the past sixteen years but the martial arts that she had before were still there....
(though I don't really believe her )

So taking in account what she said, Huang Rong would have more inner power given (well, can be concluded) that Huang Rong's inner power was greater than Xiao Long Nuu' s before the sixteen years.

[superboy]

I am no expert, but I'll try.
1. I think it would be HR because she has 9 Yin, and XLN did neglected her training for 16 years in the valley.

2. HR was a better fighter than LMC, that is quite certain(means that even she can chase YG and XLN around at the start if she want to.). But I'm not too certain about the end of ROCH. I thought she should be better than maybe QQJ since she progress faster.

3. I think Yi Deng knew the whole thing since he helped GJ translate it.. But how much he trained it was another thing that I am not certain of.

[Anonymous]

Thx Noodles for info and also for the QQR vs. 1Deng translation.
Thx Superboy.
More questions [getting materials ready ]:
.
.
Questions to confirm scenes in ROCH83:
1. Did XLN in beat up the DivineCondor? If so, what was YG's assessment [innerPower and technique-wise]?
2. Did the "greats" nominate XLN or HR as a "great"? And which woman was nominated first?
.
.
Questions about 9Yang:
1. Is 9Yang taoist practice?
2. Did the first crippled "Wudang hero" gain any "noticeable" innerPower after years of his injury?

[philip]

When I read the novel I always got that impression that GJ > ZBT. GJ knew full 9 Yin, perhaps even better than ZBT ('cause ZBT did not know the Sanskrit part, if I'm not mistaken). GJ knew L/R Hand Technique, and although perhaps not as good as ZBT in Vacant Fists but he also knew that too. In addition to Dragon Subduing Palm, younger age, better fighting mentality (not playing-type like ZBT, again this is a personal opinion, you may disagree of course), I'll say GJ > ZBT. GJ also practiced 9 Yin tediously, while ZBT although benefitted from 9 Yin tremendously as well *may not* practice it openly/tediously (what's the correct word...) because of his promise not to use 9 Yin (although we all do know he occasionally broke this promise now and then).m So, by middle of the book, my impression is that GJ should already be > ZBT.

ZBT should’ve technically been better than the Greats by the end of LOCH, so w/ a 18 year gap, he should’ve either gained even more on the greats or progression rates cannot be compared at a linear or even close linear rate (which is my belief ). If GJ = OYF by the beginning of ROCH, and = GLFW at heroes feast (and since someone stated that GLFW=OYF) then that means, within the 4 years of YG’s training w/ XLN, GJ didn’t make a significant improvement, meaning, ZBT still > GJ before the 16 year gap of XLN’s disappearance.

Anyway, other than the exceptional Z3F, stamina tends to decline with age (actually we also do not know Z3F stamina when he was 100+).

Zhang San Feng is exceptional…but even his hair didn’t turn from white to black.

The 'roughly' and 'significant' term is just of different standards. When a person doubt that ZBT is really much better than a Great, I'll say significantly, since he should be captable of beating them. On YG, I said that he is roughly equal to a Great, simpily to say that he wasn't out of their league. But you should get my point that I just gave different standards, but ZBT and YG seems about the same to me other than ZBT being an old man and might lose stamina first. Also, I thought GJ should have surpassed ZBT simpily because 9 Yin's energy is much superior to his QZ method. And ZBT never practiced 9 Yin's internal energy, nor had he ever knew the untranslated part. Of course, this is another speculation, but since there is no solid proof, don't you agree that the most possible and reasonable hypothesis is the best an only option?

if YG=ZBT, then it’s either ZBT and YG are both ROUGHLY equal to the greats or ZBT and YG are both SIGNIFICANTLY better than the greats…either way u use the standard, both should take the same term b/c roughly equal does not imply significantly better.
ZBT had practiced 9 yin (whether actively or not and has been greatly influenced), or else how did he suddenly equal/surpass the Greats after his jailed time on Peach Island? And yet, after 36 years of equaling/surpassing a great, he is still in their league? Then, how does GJ’s 20 years of equaling/surpassing a great take him out of the league?

[darkcser]

I don't think that anyone can make a direct comparison between YG and GJ's abilities since they never fought against one another.

That being said, I'll make some arguments for YG's prowess.

Who says that the wave training is inferior to 9Yin? JY's narrative claims that YG had pretty much reached DGQB's level in that interlude. DGQB was peerless in his time. Hell, he was compulsively looking for a worthy foe.

After reaching the above stage YG spends several years wandering around, developing the Sad Palms.

YG's inner power might be less refined than GJ's or 1D's but he's got the raw power. He might not be able to effectively heal wounds with it but he can certainly dish it out.

If 9Yin was the ultimate technique why does JLFW brush HR off without a second glance after 16 years? HR also has the complete 9Yin with the Sanskrit part too.

Maybe it's the combination of QZ + 9Yin w/ Sanskrit that leads to the ultimate power? Speculation at best unless someone can point this line out.

When ZBT fought JLFW he observed that JLFW's power was unmatched. At this point ZBT had fought with a post 16 year YG. Later YG is able to match power vs. power against JLFW this seems to indicate that the YG vs. ZBT fight was just about technique without much inner power. Consequently it might indicate that YG is equal to ZBT in terms of techniques but YG is greater than ZBT in terms of inner power.

ZBT used 9Yin techniques without 9Yin inner power? If he used the techniques what's to stop him from using the inner power? Obviously his vow was not kept. The fight with YG wasn't even a dire situation.

ZBT's L/R was giving YG problems before YG started using Sad Palms. At that point ZBT managed to tie technique-wise with YG while using L/R.

Why did it take ZBT, 1D, HYS, HR, Ying Gu, CY, LWS and 2 condors to deal with JLFW if he's such a pushover? By some people's reasoning any Great alone could've done it -instead it took a triple simultaneous attack against JLFW (distacted by HR's claim that GJ and YG were here too no less) to neutralize him.

YG's sword broke vs. JLFW might just be an indication of how powerful DE Skill level 10 is. It seemed that YG wanted to test his inner power vs. JLFW the first time around so he intentionally hit the wheels head on. The second time around YG was already injured, and getting somewhat desperate from defending GX.
Plus YG was winning this fight prior to JLFW attacking GX.

How's that?

Originally posted by superboy
The 'roughly' and 'significant' term is just of different standards. When a person doubt that ZBT is really much better than a Great, I'll say significantly, since he should be captable of beating them. On YG, I said that he is roughly equal to a Great, simpily to say that he wasn't out of their league. But you should get my point that I just gave different standards, but ZBT and YG seems about the same to me other than ZBT being an old man and might lose stamina first. Also, I thought GJ should have surpassed ZBT simpily because 9 Yin's energy is much superior to his QZ method. And ZBT never practiced 9 Yin's internal energy, nor had he ever knew the untranslated part. Of course, this is another speculation, but since there is no solid proof, don't you agree that the most possible and reasonable hypothesis is the best an only option?

Okay, can somepne give an outline or something of why they think YG is stronger?

[Dirt]

If Yang Guo had reached DGQB's level at the end of the wave training, doesn't this mean that though his technique got more refined, his martial arts as a whole was still at or below the level of the Greats?

[rabadi]

Originally posted by philip
ZBT should?ve technically been better than the Greats by the end of LOCH

Agree, and that's because of 9 Yin, regardless of whether or not ZBT practiced it consiously (because eventhough he promised not to use 9 Yin, it was already there inside him).

Originally posted by philip
...and since someone stated that GLFW=OYF...

I'm not sure about this one. Not enough information.

Originally posted by philip
...meaning, ZBT still > GJ before the 16 year gap of XLN?s disappearance.

Again, I'm not sure about this one. GJ had the disadvantage of having to recover from his injury and so within those 3 or 4 years he might not progress as fast as before, but after those years I think he could progress normally again. I just could not shake that impression that someone who practiced 9 Yin tediously like GJ should have faster rate than someone who practiced 9 Yin *unconsiously* like ZBT (Of course talent and interest also play a part here, which is why someone like HR did not progress that much with 9 Yin, because while she may have the talent she did not have much interest).

Originally posted by philip
Zhang San Feng is exceptional?but even his hair didn?t turn from white to black.

True. On this matter I do not know whether ZBT's hair color change was due to his own playful nature or from 9 Yin.

As for YG reaching DGQB level, I thought some of the posts here already mentioned that YG was not quite there yet. Too lazy to link the posts here. Maybe when I have time later.

[superboy]

if YG=ZBT, then it’s either ZBT and YG are both ROUGHLY equal to the greats or ZBT and YG are both SIGNIFICANTLY better than the greats…either way u use the standard, both should take the same term b/c roughly equal does not imply significantly better.
ZBT had practiced 9 yin (whether actively or not and has been greatly influenced), or else how did he suddenly equal/surpass the Greats after his jailed time on Peach Island? And yet, after 36 years of equaling/surpassing a great, he is still in their league? Then, how does GJ’s 20 years of equaling/surpassing a great take him out of the league?

Does it really matter? I used the word significantly better just to try to say that ZBT had surpassed their league. While I used roughly to say YG wasn't much better like he can cream them for dinner. It's only a matter of words my friend. And how come ZBT should be linear to GJ? He never actively cultivate the internal energy part, nor did he knew the most important part of 9 Yin.

[minutemanwayne]

Originally posted by rabadi
True. On this matter I do not know whether ZBT's hair color change was due to his own playful nature or from 9 Yin.

It was a combination of his high pure internal energy, his carefree attitude, and the Jade Bee honey.

[superboy]

ZBT should’ve technically been better than the Greats by the end of LOCH, so w/ a 18 year gap, he should’ve either gained even more on the greats or progression rates cannot be compared at a linear or even close linear rate (which is my belief ). If GJ = OYF by the beginning of ROCH, and = GLFW at heroes feast (and since someone stated that GLFW=OYF) then that means, within the 4 years of YG’s training w/ XLN, GJ didn’t make a significant improvement, meaning, ZBT still > GJ before the 16 year gap of XLN’s disappearance.

Now I got the answer. H7G's and OYF's internal energy were said to be not below that of GLFW that time, but GJ still was said to be slightly inferior. It may mean one thing. Why GJ fought OYF that time, his internal energy was probabaly not exactly on par with him. Probably inferior. But it could be because of his 9 Yin consepts, modified HL18Z, youth, he actually got to tie with OYF in an actual battle. If therefore, it is possible that Gj at age 35-36 is still slightly inferior to GLFW in terms of internal energy. Lets say Gj was 10% or so weaker than GLFW in internal energy. But GLFW had 20 years more cultivation, while GJ only got half the time he got, and has earilier life was with QZ energy, not 9 Yin. So GJ's 9 yin improvement should be twice as fast as his if there is no problem with my reason.

[Ken Cheng]

Here's something else to chew on in comparing Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk (somehow, the conversation has momentarily gotten away from Yeung Gor):

When Yeung Gor tried to murder Gwok Jing in his sleep at Seung Yeung Fortress, Gwok Jing was able to subdue Yeung Gor quite easily. It took only a few moves to knock the dagger out of Yeung Gor's hand and seal his pressure points.

A few days later, Yeung Gor fought the Golden Wheel Monk outside of Seung Yeung Fortress, protecting the newborn Gwok Seung from the monk and from Lee Mok Sau. Yeung Gor was able to singlehandedly hold off the Golden Wheel Monk for a long time -- doing much better than he did against Gwok Jing just a few days earlier.

During these few days, Yeung Gor's martial arts had not improved.

What does mean in terms of the difference between Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk's martial arts levels?

[rabadi]

Ken, I don't remember that scene. Was it in the 2nd/3rd edition of the novel?

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by rabadi
Ken, I don't remember that scene. Was it in the 2nd/3rd edition of the novel?

It should be in every edition. There has always (as far as I know) been a scene in ROCH when Yeung Gor tried to murder Gwok Jing in his sleep (avenging his father and trading for the Passion Flower Poison antidote).

[Vash|7ds]

[..In reality, Guo Jing was just following the orthodox rules of martial arts by retreating backwards, naturally dispersing the enemy's force. After Yang Guo had interfered many times, Jin Lun Fa Wang had lost his face, he wanted to regain it back and so took Guo Jing's palm; he actually consumed a lot of his chi and internal energy, though he looked like he was superior, he was suffering on the inside. The two of them are outstanding men of the world, it would be difficult to separate the two in tens of moves, Jin Lun Fa Wang forced himself to take this stance without moving, his chest throbbed with pain again, luckily the aim of the opponent was just to stop him and did not continue to attack; he closed his lips and eyes and circulated his internal energy, unblocking the motionless chi in his chest...]

[..When Guo Jing was in midair, he thought wouldn't it mean he has lost out in this exchange if he doesn't reply to this sneak attack by this evil monk? He saw Fa Wang had fired out another arrow. As soon as his left foot touched the top of the city walls he immediately grabbed a bow from one of the guards and fired an arrow of his own towards Fa Wang's arrow. The arrows collided in midair and Fa Wang's arrow was split into two. Fa Wang was stunned. Suddenly, a fierce gust arrived; a 'zheng' sound was heard as the metal bow in his hands was snapped into two. Though Guo Jing's and Fa Wang's martial arts were within a hairbreadths of each other, Guo Jing's archery skills were unsurpassed; he has learnt archery from one of the greatest Mongolian archers Zhe Bie ever since he was young and his internal energy was profound - when it comes to archery, Fa Wang loses out.
Guo Jing had fired three arrows; the first divided Fa Wang's arrow, the second snapped Fa Wang's bow and the third was fired out towards Khubilai's flag....]

At the hero's feast, GLFW and GJ are compared in TENS OF MOVES with each other...and later on are compared WITHIN hairbreadths.
Therefore, after the 16 year gap, GLFW has dramatically improved further, as so does GJ. Therefore, it just goes back to square one, that is they are WITHIN hairbreadths of eachother. Since YG beats GLFW, the very best GJ has against YG is a draw!

[superboy]

At the hero's feast, GLFW and GJ are compared in TENS OF MOVES with each other...and later on are compared WITHIN hairbreadths.
Therefore, after the 16 year gap, GLFW has dramatically improved further, as so does GJ. Therefore, it just goes back to square one, that is they are WITHIN hairbreadths of eachother. Since YG beats GLFW, the very best GJ has against YG is a draw!

But you forgot that GJ has 20 years less training than GLFW that time and is still at least a tie with him.

[Raden Wijaya]

Why you always think if YG beat GLFW automatically YG is better than GJ. Beside GJ fought GLFW only a few moves.
You can't conlude that GJ couldn't defeat GLFW like YG DId.
IT"S NEVER HAPPENED, SO THERE'S A CHANCE GJ COULD DEFEAT GLFW FASTER THAN YG DID!

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Raden Wijaya
Why you always think if YG beat GLFW automatically YG is better than GJ. Beside GJ fought GLFW only a few moves.
You can't conlude that GJ couldn't defeat GLFW like YG DId.
IT"S NEVER HAPPENED, SO THERE'S A CHANCE GJ COULD DEFEAT GLFW FASTER THAN YG DID!

This is true. One of the most frustrating things about ROCH is not just that Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor never got a chance to prove their prowess against each other, but that Gwok Jing never really got to prove his prowess against the Golden Wheel Monk. Their palm exchange at Luk Family Manor was too brief to be the basis of any conclusive judgment, and the battle outside of Kublai's basecamp had too many external factors to be a good measure either. We never really got a complete, decisive Gwok Jing vs. Golden Wheel Monk showdown in ROCH.

[duguxiaojing]

[

Therefore, it just goes back to square one, that is they are WITHIN hairbreadths of eachother. Since YG beats GLFW, the very best GJ has against YG is a draw!

That was based on a much diffrent Gj,Yg and golden wheel monk we dont know where he stands at the end. I look at it this way. Gj progressed faster than GWM and YG faster than GJ which means after the 16 years seperation they are roughly equal since GWM has more years than Gj and GJ has more years than YG (of inner power cultivation) but they their power increases at diffrent rates. We know that a younger Gj was=GWM but later at the end of the novel he could be miles ahead or behind .but i seriously doubt he would be beind GWM especially with his dedication and 9yin backing him.


I really wish we could see GJ in a real fight at the end thought im curious too see how powerful his become. In the beggining of the novel his moves stances and inner power seemed unbelievable. He seemed to of completley mastered his inner power and dragon palms to a state of perfection. It was not aggressive like Yg or GWM but the way they were described made them seem invincible. His stances were light and looked fragile but had unbelivable power behind them not blasting power like a YG soft but overbearing kind of like the way 1deng 1YZ finger was described. It would be awesome if JY gave us a description of a 56? year old Gj with 18DP beyond the state of perfection he had used 16,18 years b4.

[Temujin]

As I said earlier, these arguments are going around and around. New elements and new possibilities will lead to a more hard-to-find conclusion. The best way is to look at the poll result and result will show what the majority thinks.