The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Condor83]

Originally posted by rabadi
I can't remember, but it seems that from Athena's statement GJ was referring to two people, one was H7Q whom HR commented had already been gone, and the other was GJ himself who did not do it. If I'm not mistaken in the first edition Yelu Qi even thought it was his teacher ZBT (???).

I just read that part last night, but I was reading from the second edition. Yelu Qi commented that there had to be a top martial artists behind GS who helped her kill Ni Moxing. He says that there are only five people in the world with that level of martial arts ability. They were GJ, WYS, 1D, his teacher ZBT and GWM. Obviously it was not GJ. GWM would not kill his fellow Mongol. YQ also knew that 1D will not easily kill a man now that he's a monk. That leaves either WYS or ZBT.

In a later scene, WY said that only H7G and GJ himself have that type of inner power to kill someone with a hairpin. I wonder if Central Divinity and West Venom could do it if they were still around.

[superboy]

Originally posted by philip
YTZ???? not you tan zhi rite?

No, Eagle king of HSDS.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Condor83
I just read that part last night, but I was reading from the second edition.

Thanks for the info. Hey, while you're at it, could you please do me a favor? In the past I already made a comment in this forum (I guess the thread must have been gone already) that I read in the first edition, that prior to H7Q and OYF's death when H7Q first met YG, it was mentioned H7Q by that time had recovered from his injury using 9 Yin and even progressed surpassing the Central Divinity. I mentioned this to Athena, and she said that this statement was not in the second edition (and most likely was not in the third edition as well). I am pretty sure I read it in the first edition, or at least in the Indonesian translation of the first edition that I read. So, could you please do me a favor to check whether it was really not mentioned in the second edition of the novel? Thanks a lot.

[hitman]

Not in dugus case Yg commented from reading the inscription of Dugus sword tomb that wooden sword could defeat iron sword meaning that the skill was higher and no sword was even more superior to that. When we see YG practicing with wooden sword it seemed to actually be possible that he might actually be able to defeat iron due to speed and high internal power. I dont know what no sword stage was like but if he was able to emit sword chi through leaves like iron sword it would be something to see. The thing is it the final stage was stated to be superior to iron sword stage which is pretty damn good already .After the age of fourty?or fifty? dont remember Dugu claimed that all could be his sword anything he picked up stones bushes anything so since this stage is superior to wooden then he would be able to use it to defeat masters more easily than wit wooden sword and iron.It was more than a theory it was a skill for dugu.at least from what he claimed.

Of course it is possible for the wooden sword to defeat the iron sword but it doesn't really guarantee it.Using stones etc as a sword is under wooden sword level.But I really doubt whether DGKB mentioning using stone and leaf can defeat the iron sword.It sounds too ridiculous.I only remembered at wooden sword stage he could use anything as a sword but that doesn't mean it can beat the iron sword it is the theory is higher than iron sword since it is harder to do so.This is my opinion and it is alright for you to disagree about it since it is all speculation with no proof of seeing DGKB in action with this theory of his.

however, a free for all fight is much more different from a 3 vs. 1 fight.

It is partly free for all but they did ganged up on GJ.ZBT found out GJ has improved and decided to 'help' OYF and QQR to fight GJ.The 3 of them attacking GJ together and GJ did lasted for certain amount of strokes.GJ was not yet at their level yet.Compared to GWM who areat their level can only lasted perhaps fewer strokes than GJ did.

how old is Qiu Qian Ren (iron palm guy) compared to yi-deng

Can't remember,should be around their age though.

any type of powerful internal energy competition can lead to death/fatal injury, or else YG wouldn’t be afraid to compete in internal energy w/ ZBT. GWM was severely injured after his “competition” w/ YG at the QZ palace.

true but H7G and OYF have overexerted their internal energy for their age.GWM was lost to YG thanks to the distraction by XLL.IF not it was YG at the suffering end.

YG was losing two GWM in terms of internal energy after a couple weeks of crash course w/ the iron sword, but he was giving GWM enough trouble in internal energy competition.

How much trouble did YG gave to GWM I couldn't accurately remember but YG did took the snake bladders which saves him a lot of time in his internal energy improvement.I am not sure whether to consider eating snake bladders is part of the training of iron sword.

different analogy. Wooden sword/no sword stage should be better than iron sword for the user. Is GJ’s kick/punch better than his XL18Z?

Not really much difference.If you think this way to make a stone or leaf into a 'normal' sword requires much of internal energy.To make it to be even more powerful than iron sword requires god knows how much of internal energy.I don't really think DGKB is that stupid to consider using stone or leaf to fight the Greats.DGKB certainly has very high chance of defeatig the Greats if he reverts to either a normal sword or iron sword.

DGKB is all about speculation.If you believe YG's speculates that DGKB lives about 60 to 70 years before him,it made DGKB died around 20 years b4 the 1st Wah Shan tournament.Around 20 years b4 1st Wah Shan tournament the best fighters Wulin had seen are WCY,HYS,H7G,OYF,1D,QQR and LCY.They had not even reached to their highest skills yet at that time.So how strong really are DGKB opponents were b4 he died are very questionable.Then again this is my opinion if anyone disagree with it feel free to do so.I can't really argue with it since DGKB is always about speculation.

[Condor83]

Originally posted by rabadi
I read in the first edition, that prior to H7Q and OYF's death when H7Q first met YG, it was mentioned H7Q by that time had recovered from his injury using 9 Yin and even progressed surpassing the Central Divinity.

Nope this was not in the Second Edition. I've just checked it. I think you are referring to the scene right after H7G nearly wastes the five students of Da Er Ba. Suddenly YG calls out father and it was AYF. At that time, H7G thinks to himself that it's been a long time since he's seen AYF whose kung-fu has gotten more weird, but also more powerful from the faux 9Y. H7G mentions how he heard GJ and WY recite a small portion of 9Y and used it in his own training with the effect of greatly improving his own martial arts. It's possible that the first edition added a line to this section saying H7G has surpassed Central Divine, but I don't have this edition.

[superboy]

Originally posted by philip
dunno about you...but 10-15% is alot, esp on high levels. i thought u claimed taoist internal energy to be "better" as u practice longer...and now ZBT isn't that much better than the greats in terms of internal energy? GJ is improving twice as fast as the greats, while YG improves twice as fast as GJ, thatz still not helping ur GJ argument.

10 to 15 may be high to weak fighters, but not anymore if two are top level fighters. Actually, I thought 15% might even be too high, since in the camp GJ used 70% to match GLFW's palm and 30% to fight the others at one time. Although GLFW didn't pushed his everything, it is not likely that GLFW only used 55% to match GJ's palm that time. GJ might actually be on par with him in terms of internal energgy that time since the slightly weaker comment was a year ago.
And I also explianed that ZBT no longer train as much as he used to in the Island. Is that not a possible reason? And we don't know what other type of internal energy the other Greats uses. Yi Deng uses also taoist energy. H7G and OYF also switched to some 9 Yin after LOCH. And we don't know about HYS. But anywayz. the thing is, ZBT splitted his time playing than training 24/7 like he did in the cave. Is ZBT still being able to be better than the Greats instead of letting them catch up not prove that his taoist energy is working properly. Since ZBT was weaker than the Greats before probably because they improved faster. Now the Great's energy are no longer faster than ZBT's, would mean that his internal energy improves faster than his younger days.
And why is YG's speed got to do with the debate?Sure if we use the Greats as standards, he improved even faster than GJ. But if he is still somewhere near the Great's level, then that would mean that it is not enough to catch up to GJ since he got 20 more years of internal energy. Plus, wemember the Toaist rate thingy. We are not talking about things after ROCH are we? If so, it's pointless since we know that GJ died in his 60s and we dn't know if YG trained under the torrents any longer after he left with XLN. And also, may you tell how you get the number that YG improved twice as fast as GJ? I don't see how 36 year old YG is twice as powerful as 36 year old GJ.

[duguxiaojing]

.But I really doubt whether DGKB mentioning using stone and leaf can defeat the iron sword.It sounds too ridiculous.I only remembered at wooden sword stage he could use anything as a sword but that doesn't mean it can beat the iron sword it is the theory is higher than iron sword since it is harder to do so.This is my opinion and it is alright for you to disagree about it since it is all speculation with no proof of seeing DGKB in action with this theory of his.

Yeah it does sound ridiculous but on the inscription when YG first visited the sword tomb dugu said that he did not use weapons after he was forty years old.(this was the words under wooden sword) instead he used bushes sticks and rocks after that he was able to reach the stage of defeating sword with out sword. I dont know about leafs but using a stick to defeat iron sword does seem possible i think thats the whole part with YG avoiding direct contact with the divine condor was all about.

Not really much difference.If you think this way to make a stone or leaf into a 'normal' sword requires much of internal energy.To make it to be even more powerful than iron sword requires god knows how much of internal energy.I don't really think DGKB is that stupid to consider using stone or leaf to fight the Greats.DGKB certainly has very high chance of defeatig the Greats if he reverts to either a normal sword or iron sword.

true i wish their was something to show us directly where dugu stands really we dont even know how he fights could he really direct chi through rocks and leaves? ive heard speculation that he proboally could channel it like blast of 6msj but faster again all this is speculation .

[superboy]

Yeah it does sound ridiculous but on the inscription when YG first visited the sword tomb dugu said that he did not use weapons after he was forty years old.(this was the words under wooden sword) instead he used bushes sticks and rocks after that he was able to reach the stage of defeating sword with out sword. I dont know about leafs but using a stick to defeat iron sword does seem possible i think thats the whole part with YG avoiding direct contact with the divine condor was all about.

Using a stick to beat a person using an Iron Sword is of course possible. But that might not mean that the person with enough skill and internal energy to use a stick can't use a normal sword or Iron Sword better than it.

[duguxiaojing]

u r refering 2 YG right? ya in YG case i think u r right but what about dugu's he stated that his wooden sword /no sword stage is superior.

[philip]

Of course it is possible for the wooden sword to defeat the iron sword but it doesn't really guarantee it.Using stones etc as a sword is under wooden sword level.But I really doubt whether DGKB mentioning using stone and leaf can defeat the iron sword.It sounds too ridiculous.I only remembered at wooden sword stage he could use anything as a sword but that doesn't mean it can beat the iron sword it is the theory is higher than iron sword since it is harder to do so.This is my opinion and it is alright for you to disagree about it since it is all speculation with no proof of seeing DGKB in action with this theory of his.

dugu is an extreme “demon” swordsman, and speculation from his various levels of sword art, it seems like he’s always seeking to improve himself. There’s no reason why he would go from a stronger art to a weaker one.

Not really much difference.If you think this way to make a stone or leaf into a 'normal' sword requires much of internal energy.To make it to be even more powerful than iron sword requires god knows how much of internal energy.I don't really think DGKB is that stupid to consider using stone or leaf to fight the Greats.DGKB certainly has very high chance of defeatig the Greats if he reverts to either a normal sword or iron sword.

why would dugu bother creating/use the wooden/no sword if it wasn’t more powerful than his iron sword? That’s like as if GJ were to give up practicing 9 yin style and reverting back to QZ style.

Can't remember,should be around their age though.

GLFW battled QQR for a whole day. If QQR was around Yi-Deng’s age, shouldn’t he have lost out long before 1 day is up because of his “decreasing stamina”? I don’t think Yi-Deng’s stamina was really the big problem in his fight w/ GLFW.

10 to 15 may be high to weak fighters, but not anymore if two are top level fighters. Actually, I thought 15% might even be too high, since in the camp GJ used 70% to match GLFW's palm and 30% to fight the others at one time. Although GLFW didn't pushed his everything, it is not likely that GLFW only used 55% to match GJ's palm that time. GJ might actually be on par with him in terms of internal energgy that time since the slightly weaker comment was a year ago.

no, 1% might not make such a big difference, but 10-15% is huge. If two evenly matched fighters were fighting, one little mistake can be devastating, not to say not using full effort. Also, where did it say that GJ used 70% against GLFW?

How much trouble did YG gave to GWM I couldn't accurately remember but YG did took the snake bladders which saves him a lot of time in his internal energy improvement.

YG gave GLFW enough trouble that GLFW couldn’t put energy aside to avoid XLN’s needle.

And I also explianed that ZBT no longer train as much as he used to in the Island. Is that not a possible reason? And we don't know what other type of internal energy the other Greats uses. Yi Deng uses also taoist energy. H7G and OYF also switched to some 9 Yin after LOCH. And we don't know about HYS. But anywayz. the thing is, ZBT splitted his time playing than training 24/7 like he did in the cave. Is ZBT still being able to be better than the Greats instead of letting them catch up not prove that his taoist energy is working properly. Since ZBT was weaker than the Greats before probably because they improved faster. Now the Great's energy are no longer faster than ZBT's, would mean that his internal energy improves faster than his younger days.
And why is YG's speed got to do with the debate? Sure if we use the Greats as standards, he improved even faster than GJ. But if he is still somewhere near the Great's level, then that would mean that it is not enough to catch up to GJ since he got 20 more years of internal energy. Plus, wemember the Toaist rate thingy. We are not talking about things after ROCH are we? If so, it's pointless since we know that GJ died in his 60s and we dn't know if YG trained under the torrents any longer after he left with XLN. And also, may you tell how you get the number that YG improved twice as fast as GJ? I don't see how 36 year old YG is twice as powerful as 36 year old GJ.

and where do you have proof that GJ is out of the Great’s league? ZBT’s Taoist energy should allow his rate to become more and more faster than the Great’s rite? Hey, u said ZBT is “significantly better” than the greats rite? And YG is for sure = ZBT, so if YG is also roughly equally to the greats, ZBT is also roughly equal to the greats. So what if GJ surpassed the greats? ZBT also surpassed the greats, and if YG is equal to ZBT, he also surpassed the Greats. And is a 40 year old GJ about twice as good as a 40 year old Great? If so, how can u be sure that a 36 year old YG isn’t about twice as good as a 36 year old GJ?

[superboy]

no, 1% might not make such a big difference, but 10-15% is huge. If two evenly matched fighters were fighting, one little mistake can be devastating, not to say not using full effort. Also, where did it say that GJ used 70% against GLFW?

If that is hugh, then I can shrink the number. You won't like it then would you? I guess it could be smaller, since I was only hypothesizing. It was stated somewhere during the battle at the camp when GLFW was matching internal energy with him that time. They both weren't using full though.

and where do you have proof that GJ is out of the Great’s league? ZBT’s Taoist energy should allow his rate to become more and more faster than the Great’s rite? Hey, u said ZBT is “significantly better” than the greats rite? And YG is for sure = ZBT, so if YG is also roughly equally to the greats, ZBT is also roughly equal to the greats. So what if GJ surpassed the greats? ZBT also surpassed the greats, and if YG is equal to ZBT, he also surpassed the Greats. And is a 40 year old GJ about twice as good as a 40 year old Great? If so, how can u be sure that a 36 year old YG isn’t about twice as good as a 36 year old GJ?

But also,by the time ZBT's internal energy improved faster, he started playing more again, and is at old age that time. Also, if you are asking for proff, then I think no one other than JY can give you a 100% awser. Why you think we are speculating anyway? And again with giving me the burden? If you are the one that give the answer thaat YG improves twice as fast as GJ, then obviously you should have back up to it. So my answer is that I can't actually calculate how YG is actually twice as fast. Maybe you will have the answer to why that is true. And only how I calculate, although I can't say it's the best way, I use the amount of years they train and compare how long did it took the other person to become his/her equal.

dugu is an extreme “demon” swordsman, and speculation from his various levels of sword art, it seems like he’s always seeking to improve himself. There’s no reason why he would go from a stronger art to a weaker one.

So a logical reason could be that he found an actual higher level, not neccesay inventing a more powerful art. Wooden Sowrd stage is indeed higher than the Iron Sword since you only rely mostly on your self, but it is not neccesay that that user will be any weaker if he use other types of weapons other than a wood sword or stick.

[superboy]

Originally posted by duguxiaojing
u r refering 2 YG right? ya in YG case i think u r right but what about dugu's he stated that his wooden sword /no sword stage is superior.

Possibly he is talking about reaching the level itself, not neccesary that he can beat himself if he use a piece of stick instead a sword to fight.

[philip]

If that is hugh, then I can shrink the number. You won't like it then would you?

sure, shrink down the numbers…that only gives two suggestions. one: your evidences given aren’t always accurate since you like to change them from time to time, and two: your evidence doesn’t even help your argument.

But also,by the time ZBT's internal energy improved faster, he started playing more again, and is at old age that time. Also, if you are asking for proff, then I think no one other than JY can give you a 100% awser. Why you think we are speculating anyway? And again with giving me the burden? If you are the one that give the answer thaat YG improves twice as fast as GJ, then obviously you should have back up to it. So my answer is that I can't actually calculate how YG is actually twice as fast. Maybe you will have the answer to why that is true. And only how I calculate, although I can't say it's the best way, I use the amount of years they train and compare how long did it took the other person to become his/her equal.

no difference, he should still be significantly better than he was in his younger days and still significantly better than the greats b/c he had used 9 yin influences in his practice. And ZBT is getting old? Is not the other greats getting old too? There was still a 14 year gap between LOCH and ROCH, if ZBT wasn’t improving much due to “aging” then shouldn’t OYF also not be improving greatly due to againg? Therefore, according to ur theory of progression, ZBT is still improving significantly better than the Greats, meaning GJ was still significantly behind ZBT in the beginning of ROCH, then you can’t prove that GJ has caught up or surpassed ZBT by the end of ROCH, which means GJ is still in the league of the greats, and that makes him “roughly equal” to a great .

So a logical reason could be that he found an actual higher level, not neccesay inventing a more powerful art. Wooden Sowrd stage is indeed higher than the Iron Sword since you only rely mostly on your self, but it is not neccesay that that user will be any weaker if he use other types of weapons other than a wood sword or stick.

he doesn’t have to use a wooden sword…no sword should be off better than wooden sword.

[hitman]

dugu is an extreme “demon” swordsman, and speculation from his various levels of sword art, it seems like he’s always seeking to improve himself. There’s no reason why he would go from a stronger art to a weaker one.

why would dugu bother creating/use the wooden/no sword if it wasn’t more powerful than his iron sword? That’s like as if GJ were to give up practicing 9 yin style and reverting back to QZ style.

If you remember the example I mentioned about YG about his overreliance on the iron sword that is why he went to develop sad palm then it should be the same reason for DGKB.DGKB must have realize that his superiority lies with his iron sword that is why he went to the wooden sword level.With that he doesn't need the iron sword to get that superiority but it still doesn't proof that using stone will defeat the iron sword.For the no sword theory only JY knows what is that.Other people has only speculate how good it is but it seems like those speculations made DGKB like a god.YG at his 20's has been doing what DGKB is doing in his 30's.YG at his 30's is doing something like DGKB is doing in his 40's.At that rate it doesn't seems to match DGKB with the speculation people has given him.The theory would always sounds nice but the reality will always be different.

GLFW battled QQR for a whole day. If QQR was around Yi-Deng’s age, shouldn’t he have lost out long before 1 day is up because of his “decreasing stamina”? I don’t think Yi-Deng’s stamina was really the big problem in his fight w/ GLFW.

Why can't one of the reason QQR lost was that his stamina and overexertion of his inner energy.After all he is quite old and to fight for one whole day.While it is not really shown that 1D was losing his stamina but HR was worried about it since she noticed that 1D was using more internal energy for someone at his age should do.

YG gave GLFW enough trouble that GLFW couldn’t put energy aside to avoid XLN’s needle.

They were having internal energy contest.The distraction caused by XLL is much more dangerous then the distraction caused by HR etc when GWM was fighting 1D.Internal energy contest requires more concentration than fighting after all they should only be focusing on circulating their internal energy.

[superboy]

sure, shrink down the numbers…that only gives two suggestions. one: your evidences given aren’t always accurate since you like to change them from time to time, and two: your evidence doesn’t even help your argument.

Well, we all knew that JY do not give specific percentage, so you knew long ago that it was a hypothesis at the first place. ^^()

no difference, he should still be significantly better than he was in his younger days and still significantly better than the greats b/c he had used 9 yin influences in his practice. And ZBT is getting old? Is not the other greats getting old too? There was still a 14 year gap between LOCH and ROCH, if ZBT wasn’t improving much due to “aging” then shouldn’t OYF also not be improving greatly due to againg? Therefore, according to ur theory of progression, ZBT is still improving significantly better than the Greats, meaning GJ was still significantly behind ZBT in the beginning of ROCH, then you can’t prove that GJ has caught up or surpassed ZBT by the end of ROCH, which means GJ is still in the league of the greats, and that makes him “roughly equal” to a great .

Yeah, 9 Yin helped ZBT, but he never practiced or knew the internal energy section. And is a person in the 90s not consider old? And I never said that the Greats are young neither. Likewise, their stamina are also depleting. And also, OYF was in his 60s or about 70, so there is a difference. Also, it was already said that his and H7G's vigour and stamina or something aren't as good. But also that their martial arts improved. But if this keep going on, soon age would of course catch up. And aren't you kinda unfair toward GJ? If you calculate his improvement rate, you should find that ZBT is no where near his level of rate. Yet, it seems that you tried to push him to only the Great's league which he had reached by 30-33? And that was the stronger Greats compare to the end of LOCH too. We're all speculating, so there is no absolute right or wrong, but maybe everything should be fair?

he doesn’t have to use a wooden sword…no sword should be off better than wooden sword.

That would be later on though. Doesn't it sound wierd. If wood sword is better than a normal sword, doesn't that mean that he can beat himself using a normal sword with something like a piece of stick? We know the more powerful your weapon, like Heaven Sword give you the advantage, but DGKB will turn weaker using a higher class weapon?

GLFW battled QQR for a whole day. If QQR was around Yi-Deng’s age, shouldn’t he have lost out long before 1 day is up because of his “decreasing stamina”? I don’t think Yi-Deng’s stamina was really the big problem in his fight w/ GLFW.

Yi Deng and GLFW was competing internal energy, in a battle, stamina proabably won't run out that quick. One thing I don't understand is why don't QQR just run. His light kung fu is way better.

[PJ]

It was mentioned that JLFW was winning against 1Deng in an inner power contest until he became distracted.

Not really. Huang Rong was worried that YD might lose due to old age, but in reality they were fighting equally impressively.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by superboy
One thing I don't understand is why don't QQR just run. His light kung fu is way better.

I think that Kau Cheen Yan had something of a death wish. He never was able to fully come to terms with the evil he had done, especially his murdering Chow Bak Tung and Ying Goo's son. Kau Cheen Yan's goal in the final battle of his life was likely to either kill the Golden Wheel Monk or die in the attempt. Self-preservation probably did not cross his mind at all.

[duguxiaojing]

YG at his 30's is doing something like DGKB is doing in his 40's.At that rate it doesn't seems to match DGKB with the speculation people has given him.The theory would always sounds nice but the reality will always be different.

thats following the interpertation that YG finsihed all levels of Dugus training i dont really believe that he did. YG did use a rock to kill the mongo king though but thats not exactly using it like a sword..i doubt that a rock would be superior to him using iron sword....actually it seemed like YG was questioning himself during battle with GWM so i really doubt he mastered wooden sword stage since his sword shattered against GWM wheel. But who knows maybe Dugu never met the creator of KHBD, WS DY XZ and the other greats of his time and retired without finding anyone half his level. Maybe Dugu's sword would have broke on GWM wheel

[superboy]

Si WCY alive during the time DGKB is still on earth?

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Condor83
It's possible that the first edition added a line to this section saying H7G has surpassed Central Divine, but I don't have this edition.

Once again thanks for checking.

Originally posted by superboy
Si WCY alive during the time DGKB is still on earth?

I don't think DGQB was still alive when WCY was around.