The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[superboy]

you use wrestling as an analogy to GLFW vs YG in terms of internal energy…why would weight training not be? YG definitely had less than 7 years of training before the 16 years…4 years of ancient tomb + less than a month of water cultivation for real training (and perhaps plus some less than two years while he’s on his “adventure”), but it seems that the progression he got from his water cultivation is much faster than his ancient tomb training. If his improvement was linear…he should’ve at least improved by 3 times.

The difference is that you cannot really find anything wrong with the wrestleing since we do not have a very good idea on the locking. While it is very easy to understand that there is a limit to the amount of muscle mass you can gain. That is not the caase that we'd seen for interale energy.

now doesn’t that contradict ur own theory of a linear progression rate? ZBT obviously did not have a linear rate. And yet, if QZ internal power truly allowed him faster and faster progression (during his 10 years on peach island), by the end of ROCH, ZBT should have also way surpassed the other Greats…but seemingly, most ppl agree that ZBT is only a bit better than the other greats (still about about the same level). The difference not much more than at the end of LOCH.

Well this can also be explained that ZBT has much more times training his martial arts at the Peach Blossom island, while he played more than train in the outside world. Also, his 9 Yin techniques contributes too. I never said that internal cultivatioj is linear, simply it is not high of a possiblity that after all these years of cultivation with 9 Yin, GJ wouldn't be able to surpass the Great's much inferior methods.

YG also had pieces of 9 yin inside him, and isn’t unconscious cultivation the whole purpose of the jade bed?
It’s also pretty obvious that between the 16 years wait for XLN, YG’s internal energy was cultivating quite nicely .

YG had a very small amount, and 9 Yin doesn't grow if you don't practice the internal energy.

Super: The fight of OYF and GJ was only three years before the battle of GLFW. IF we count their age, GJ improves at least twice the rate of GLFW. But a three years seperation may not make much difference. But it was also stated that GJ and GLFW would need over a thousand stance to decide the victor, while GJ tied with OYF 3 years ago. It seems likely that time that GJ will probably win. So no inconsistency here.
--- First off, are we sure the interval is "3 years" betw (GJ vs OYF) and (GJ vs. GWM)? [For my counter-arguments, I'll use 3 years for now.]
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--- Using your/Temu's assumption that GJ "did" continue to improve (obviously using 9Yin) within the interval when GJ faced OYF and when GJ faced GWN, I find inconsistencies (which prove your trend/theory wrong):
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1) Your statements/theory indicate OYF < GWM, becuz (GJ=OYF or greater) and after 3 years of 9Yin (GJ=GWM or greater) prior the 16 years. Recall your assumption that 9Yin is twice GWM's rate?
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--- If OYF < GWM then: 1) GWM's rate of innerPower is better. 2) Then YG vs. GWM at QZ Palace means that YG is already a "great" prior the 16 years and YG could take KauCheenYan easily. And YG after 16years should be "really" above the greats: not true.
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--- Now taking GJ is twice the innerPower rate than GWM, and if we backtrack your theory/trend, then OYF=H7G=HYS=1Deng < GWM. And then GWM after 16years should be "really" above the greats: not true.
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--- Recall HR also trained 9Yin along with GJ for 10years in PeachBlossom Island before ROCH. If GJ really improved betw beginning of ROCH and prior YG's 16year separation, then HR also "should" improved. It was stated that HR and GJ did things together. However, (YG=HR or YG>HR) > (Gongsun, MadameGongsun,etc), meaning HR's (10years of 9Yin in PeachBlossom Island and more than 3 years of 9Yin and the whole LOCH year) sucks compared to (QZ + AncientTomb + snakeGall + IronSword training), and IronSword+snakeGall only improved YG "one or two levels" This results in HR and GJ becoming "static" characters and DGQB's methods are better than 9Yin.

I believe that it's 3/4 years. Any experts correct me if I'm wrong. And if GJ improves about twice the rate of GLFW, and GLFW=OYF at that time, than during GLFW's battle with GJ, GJ should just have 3/4 years more internal energy compare to GLFW that time if we count the faster rate he has. That is just enough to only make a slight difference, which was suggest by JY. And using HR as an example isn't very good, becasue I believe she barely train much. I also remember philip agreed on it upon the other thread that HR probably don't train much.

Super: HIs [YG] torrent training is mainly the onl thing he trains. He seems to no longer uses his old methods.
--- Assuming YG doesnt train QZ, then GJ also doesnt train in QZ but in 9Yin fully. However, your assumption is based that QZ innerPower effect "requires" QZ training to be effective [Can anyone tell if this is true?]

I never really said anything about QZ internal energy.

[superboy]

Can anyone suggest why GJ will suddenly improve much slower after the start of ROCH with the training of 9 Yin? It is appearant that GJ improves way faster than the Greats. Being able to match one at 33, when they were about in their late 60s. How possible is it that GJ will still be at around Great level when his 9 Yin manual that he trained hard at was the best manual in the Condor Trilogy that all the Greats hoped to process. Andvance Toaist internal energy also increases its improvement rate the longer you train. The remarks were made by Z3F and ZBT.

[philip]

Andvance Toaist internal energy also increases its improvement rate the longer you train. The remarks were made by Z3F and ZBT.

so does that mean by the begining of ROCH, ZBT should've also surpassed the Greats by a further margin, and by the the end of ROCH, the gap should be even wider???

[superboy]

so does that mean by the begining of ROCH, ZBT should've also surpassed the Greats by a further margin, and by the the end of ROCH, the gap should be even wider???

I do have an impression that ZBT was significantly superior to the Greats at the end of ROCH while he was fighting YG and GLFW. While he may not be as good as his former shape since he seems to got tire easier. His age must have caught up.

[philip]

I do have an impression that ZBT was significantly superior to the Greats at the end of ROCH while he was fighting YG and GLFW. While he may not be as good as his former shape since he seems to got tire easier. His age must have caught up.

i dunno about the other greats...but ZBT's age really doesn't seem to have much effect on him...still seems so energetic. However, if YG=ZBT at end of ROCH, would that mean he was also significantly superior to the other Greats...and if GLFW = YG, does it mean he was also superior to the other Greats, and if 1 Deng was about JLFW's level, and HYS about YG's level...does that mean they were significantly better than the other greats? wait...what other greats...those were the greats, and they seems all equal to each other

[superboy]

Some people think that Yi Deng was actually seeming inferior to GLFW's palm blast. ZBT did match GLFW pretty well. And that was without the usage of his L/R technique. Also, I believe that age will eventually caught up. That is why HR was worried about yi Deng's competition with GLFW. cAnd Yi Deg also thought tha 'even' when he was in his prime, he cannot compare to YG's internal energy, so how can him at such an age. So I believe as you get to a certain age, your martial arts will no longer progress much since your age will catch up. Of course that age varies for people.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by superboy
Some people think that Yi Deng was actually seeming inferior to GLFW's palm blast. ZBT did match GLFW pretty well. And that was without the usage of his L/R technique. Also, I believe that age will eventually caught up. That is why HR was worried about yi Deng's competition with GLFW. cAnd Yi Deg also thought tha 'even' when he was in his prime, he cannot compare to YG's internal energy, so how can him at such an age. So I believe as you get to a certain age, your martial arts will no longer progress much since your age will catch up. Of course that age varies for people.

I believe inner power development is not negatively impacted by age (in fact, the longer, the better), but age will definitely erode reflexes and stamina. Superior inner power can somewhat offset the loss of stamina (the Greats were all quite sprightly for a bunch of post-septuagenarians), but probably cannot overcome it completely.

[superboy]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
I believe inner power development is not negatively impacted by age (in fact, the longer, the better), but age will definitely erode reflexes and stamina. Superior inner power can somewhat offset the loss of stamina (the Greats were all quite sprightly for a bunch of post-septuagenarians), but probably cannot overcome it completely.

The stamina is a problem, since over usuage can kill you. But Yi Deng seems to think that he was better in his prime. Maybe your martial arts may just stop progressing when you get into an old age like in the 70s.

[Anonymous]

Super: The difference is that you cannot really find anything wrong with the wrestleing since we do not have a very good idea on the locking. While it is very easy to understand that there is a limit to the amount of muscle mass you can gain. That is not the caase that we'd seen for interale energy.
--- InnerPower capacity seems unlimited but the "techniques" to achieve it become less effective. Except Beiming, etc.
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Super: And if GJ improves about twice the rate of GLFW, and GLFW=OYF at that time, than during GLFW's battle with GJ, GJ should just have 3/4 years more internal energy compare to GLFW that time if we count the faster rate he has. That is just enough to only make a slight difference, which was suggest by JY.
--- First, where did JY "suggest" that GJ has "more innerPower" than GWM? [Chapter12 is Hero'sFeast. Probably ch13-14.] However, my impression is that they "tie," (ie. HL18Z equals GWMlv9 palm; like GJ vs. OYF) and GJ has more "techniques"(also not suggested by JY at that time but got the impression much later on).
--- Second, using the 16year training of GWM as guide (which he gained "one level") and using your assumption GJ is twice GWM's innerPower rate:
1) We take the 4 years (even number) GJ gained over GWN_lv9 and superimposed this to the 16year that GWN takes to level up, and we get 4/16 (or 1/4 of innerPower increase per that level. This increase "can" propel YG to "great" status prior 16year separation.) For GJ's case, it should definitely not be a "tie" (meaning, JY should through GWM's conscious-ness felt "power" of HL18Z like ZBT did from GWNlv10).
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Super: YG had a very small amount, and 9 Yin doesn't grow if you don't practice the internal energy.
--- Just practicing innerPower or practicing in 9Yin sort of way?
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Super: And using HR as an example isn't very good, becasue I believe she barely train much. I also remember philip agreed on it upon the other thread that HR probably don't train much.
--- HR "trained" [10years of 9Yin during Peach Blossom Island; refer to my GJ vs. OYF post which I highlight/italicized.] And she was good enough to head-to-head with OYF (normal not ToadStance clash). However, after the 16year separation HR cannot take GWM'sAttack (DogStick broken, maybe surprise but she "should" have felt his power first like the other "greats").
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Super: Can anyone suggest why GJ will suddenly improve much slower after the start of ROCH with the training of 9 Yin? It is appearant that GJ improves way faster than the Greats.
--- True. But this "mirrors" YG's development of innerPower. That near the "great" status part, it's "going the distance" (VERY hard work). That's why YG had to got to extreme/dangerous places to train. GJ's way of training versus YG's way is like "Wudang's" way versus "Shaolin's(physical)" way. [Good analogy?]. Is either one better than the other?

[Moinllieon]

Speaking of the Quote button.

[hitman]

--- HR "trained" [10years of 9Yin during Peach Blossom Island; refer to my GJ vs. OYF post which I highlight/italicized.] And she was good enough to head-to-head with OYF (normal not ToadStance clash). However, after the 16year separation HR cannot take GWM'sAttack (DogStick broken, maybe surprise but she "should" have felt his power first like the other "greats").

I think there is some correction to be made about that.HR progress cannot compared to the likes of GJ and YG.Both GJ and YG are a much better martial arts prodigy than her.Furthermore it is the bamboo stick that GWM broke not Dog Beating Stick.

Actually I have no intention to debate much since my time is limited but I want to add something for you all to discuss regarding iinternal power/martial arts progress.First and foremost I don't think it is right to dismiss that GJ progress rate should be slower during the 16 years separation.It is said both YG and GWM trained intensively during that period and made a huge progress in their martial arts and internal power.Before the 16 years GWM was said to be 'equal' to Greats=GJ.After 16 years GWM was still equal to the Greats.The Greats never trained themselves as intensive as both YG and GWM furthermore their progress rate should be very much slower or perhaps past their prime yet they still managed to equal to YG and GWM progress.If the Greats can do it,why not GJ who at end of ROCH is around 56 should be at the peak of his martial arts progress and definately better martial arts theory in 9 Yin.Busy with military training and looking after his descendents should not be an excuse for GJ's martial arts not to improve since in LOCH he spent 1 whole year searching for HR yet his still made progress in his martial arts.

As for the final battle between YG and GWM during the first 200 strokes,YG did made the right tactic to battle against GWM.GWM main advantage is his strong internal energy but his techniques are inferior if compared to other Greats.It doesn't made sense if people only analyze GWM advantage compared to other Greats in his battle but yet neglect that his apparent disadvanatge for this discussion.

[Dirt]

Hey Ken,
Can we have a "Doesn't Matter" option in the poll?

[philip]

And if GJ improves about twice the rate of GLFW, and GLFW=OYF at that time, than during GLFW's battle with GJ, GJ should just have 3/4 years more internal energy compare to GLFW that time if we count the faster rate he has.

i'm missing something here...but when did it say that GLFW=OYF?

The stamina is a problem, since over usuage can kill you. But Yi Deng seems to think that he was better in his prime. Maybe your martial arts may just stop progressing when you get into an old age like in the 70s.

but ZBT seems to think his martial arts is better in his old age. I mean, look at ZSF, i doubt he stopped progressing even at the age of 100, and ZSF is no more rare than ZBT...i mean, even ZSF's hair didn't turn black.

Can anyone suggest why GJ will suddenly improve much slower after the start of ROCH with the training of 9 Yin? It is appearant that GJ improves way faster than the Greats.

Well this can also be explained that ZBT has much more times training his martial arts at the Peach Blossom island, while he played more than train in the outside world. Also, his 9 Yin techniques contributes too.

perhaps GJ was too busy w/ GF, the wu bros, defending xiang yang, and the twins? Yet, if you claim that ZBT has surpassed the greats (and continues to grow), then GJ does not = ZBT at the begining of ROCH, and you'll never know if he did surpass ZBT or not.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Dirt
Hey Ken,
Can we have a "Doesn't Matter" option in the poll?

Declining to vote can be interpreted as "Doesn't Matter".

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
Declining to vote can be interpreted as "Doesn't Matter".

It's a choice born of an opinion not apathy. And, there can be no interpretation without a subject.

[Thor]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
One of the objectives of this sticky thread is to have a clean slate, so that newer posters who want to participate in the debate, but don't quite know where they can join in will not feel intimidated by the weight of all that has come before. Additionally, merging the thread would put the header post somewhere in the middle (as the thread is organized by date, and thus the header post of this thread would be buried somewhere in the middle of a merged thread). This would cause new debaters to overlook or completely miss the guidelines (which would defeat the purpose of writing them).

If there are elements from previous Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor threads you'd like to bring into the new debate, feel free to cut and paste them here from earlier threads. No thread merging, however, is planned.

Thanks for the explanation.
Make lots of sense.

Thor

[tape]

Originally posted by philip
i'm missing something here...but when did it say that GLFW=OYF?

We can see that GJ ~= OYF and GLFW ~= GJ so GLFW ~= OYF

[superboy]

i'm missing something here...but when did it say that GLFW=OYF?

I think there was a remark somewhere that seems to tell us that OYF and H7G has about the same interrnal energy as GLFW.

but ZBT seems to think his martial arts is better in his old age. I mean, look at ZSF, i doubt he stopped progressing even at the age of 100, and ZSF is no more rare than ZBT...i mean, even ZSF's hair didn't turn black.

I am not sure what ZBT thought, just knew that he is never the less an old man. As much as his other half's hair turned black, he still is much older. And Z3F, we can't really just say we doubt he stop progressing since little is known about his ability. But the Greats can be a very good example. Hey, that was what yi Deng thought about his internal energy.

perhaps GJ was too busy w/ GF, the wu bros, defending xiang yang, and the twins? Yet, if you claim that ZBT has surpassed the greats (and continues to grow), then GJ does not = ZBT at the begining of ROCH, and you'll never know if he did surpass ZBT or not.

Perhaps, or perhaps not. But it seems unlikely that we put GJ only at eh Great's level after all these years of 9 Yin. And when ever GJ battled, JY always mentioned about his 9 Yin. It seems that he had taken GJ's 9 Yin improvement into account, so the speed shouldn't have fallen back. 16 years ago, Yang Guo after seeing East Heretic, Zhou Botong, Imperial Priest Jinlun, Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng thought that Guo Jing's martial arts was the top of the entire world. (This is when he saw the useless Wu brothers fighting and thought Uncle Guo is unsurpassed in the world, but the Wu brothers have not even mastered 1/10 of his martial arts).

Super: The difference is that you cannot really find anything wrong with the wrestleing since we do not have a very good idea on the locking. While it is very easy to understand that there is a limit to the amount of muscle mass you can gain. That is not the caase that we'd seen for interale energy.
--- InnerPower capacity seems unlimited but the "techniques" to achieve it become less effective. Except Beiming, etc.
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Super: And if GJ improves about twice the rate of GLFW, and GLFW=OYF at that time, than during GLFW's battle with GJ, GJ should just have 3/4 years more internal energy compare to GLFW that time if we count the faster rate he has. That is just enough to only make a slight difference, which was suggest by JY.
--- First, where did JY "suggest" that GJ has "more innerPower" than GWM? [Chapter12 is Hero'sFeast. Probably ch13-14.] However, my impression is that they "tie," (ie. HL18Z equals GWMlv9 palm; like GJ vs. OYF) and GJ has more "techniques"(also not suggested by JY at that time but got the impression much later on).
--- Second, using the 16year training of GWM as guide (which he gained "one level") and using your assumption GJ is twice GWM's innerPower rate:
1) We take the 4 years (even number) GJ gained over GWN_lv9 and superimposed this to the 16year that GWN takes to level up, and we get 4/16 (or 1/4 of innerPower increase per that level. This increase "can" propel YG to "great" status prior 16year separation.) For GJ's case, it should definitely not be a "tie" (meaning, JY should through GWM's conscious-ness felt "power" of HL18Z like ZBT did from GWNlv10).

The feast was the first incounter. The second incounter was at Mongolia camp. And by then, it was said that GJ and GLFW will need over 1000 stances to decide the victore. And most people agree that GJ should probably win. Also, before the battle, GJ exerted a large amount of internal energy to YG after mistakened him of being fire deviated. Still don't lose out to GLFW that time. And also, do you have a basis that the technique becomes less effective as you train longer in internal energy. Z3F and ZBT both remarked that advance Taoist internal energy increase faster as you train.

[Condor83]

perhaps GJ was too busy w/ GF, the wu bros, defending xiang yang, and the twins? Yet, if you claim that ZBT has surpassed the greats (and continues to grow), then GJ does not = ZBT at the begining of ROCH, and you'll never know if he did surpass ZBT or not.

Does anyone know the chapter in which ZBT supposedly admits his sworn brother's martial arts is better than him?

I don't think ZBT has a powerful knockout blow that is on par with the signature techniques of the other greats. What does he use with L/R Hand, he uses Vacant Fist on one hand, but what else of the other? He only used Demon Subduing Fist against YG.

[Anonymous]

Theory that slightly favors YG's SadPalm having "leveled up:"
1. YG used SeaPalms and was winning GWM, and then started losing becuz GX. YG got ***-kicked and hurt.
2. YG then switched to SadPalms.
3. YG realizes SadPalms' power is diminished, yet he continued to use SadPalms and not SeaPalms. Why did he subject himself to a "harsher" ***-kicking or a near death experience [esp with GX's life on the line?]? He could have "delayed" GWM with SeaPalms. Conclusion: Despite SadPalms diminished power, SadPalms is equal (but likely better than SeaPalms still). Meaning, unlike ZBT, GWM really "testDrive" YG's SadPalms to the extreme (and finding holes like requiring "sadness"). Meaning, ZBT does a lower Newton's 3rd law [an action requires an equal reaction] on YG than GWM did. [showing that YG still has much potential.] [A re-wording of YG supporters theories.]
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1. However, another POV:

Whenever Yang Guo was faced with a great, powerful adversary he would use his melancholic sad palms to defeat his opponent. This style was linked to his state of being, when he was reunited with Xiao Longnu his heart was filled with bliss and happiness. There was not a trace of melancholy or sadness anymore, he was now faced with a dire situation and was using this very style.

says YG is automatically reverts to SadPalms: his last ditch. Meaning, YG regressed (psychology: obsessive-compulsive) to SadPalms and he hopes (like a baby do) that SadPalms can help him endure his enemy's onslaught. In other words: he gave up, he leave it to faith/god, etc,; however, a more appropriate labeling is he frees his/logic/brain's control over his body and "let the body to heal/help itself." It's like being sick (as in fever) and sleeping it off ("let the bodies immune system do the work" ) and not the brain, becuz that's not its job to "do the work." So, he still gained another "enlightenment" and "enlightenment" usually means a "level up" again.
--- In Yugioh terms, "trust in the heart of the cards." [And it never fails Yugioh. ] It's like the final scene in the movie "Saint of Gamblers" [from "God of Gamblers" series.]
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To Moin:
I'm currently using quotes to "only" quote passages from the novels and for opponents to verify my stuff, but I'll give it a try.