View Poll Results: Who was the superior fighter?

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  • Gwok Jing/Guo Jing

    138 58.47%
  • Yeung Gor/Yang Guo

    90 38.14%
  • Not Sure

    8 3.39%
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Thread: The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

  1. #1961
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    The raging waterfall was not enough to drown out Yang Guo's thoughts.

    "I must tell Uncle Guo," Yang Guo whispered. "I must make this right, but how? How can I ruin two lives in place of my own?" He began to recall. It was little Xiang's birthday -- her eighteenth. He had been lavish in his celebration, gathering the best heroes in all of Jiangnan to clear the city of any Mongolian presence. The outskirts of Xiang Yang were piled with the bodies of the fallen, but inside the city, the only sounds that could be heard were the clashing cymbals of the parades, and the sharp crack of the firecrackers announcing the coming womanhood of the Guo's youngest flower.


    The inn was filled with Guo Xiang's closest family and friends, come far and wide to celebrate her big day. There was Reverd Yideng and Auntie Guo, engaged in deep conversation; Zhou Botong, the old urchin, was spinning a dozen plates on his fingers and toes as Xiao Long Nu laughed and clapped happily; even her estranged grandfather, Huang Yaoshi, played a chirping melody on his jade flute. His deep and profound internal energy propelled his play, filling the entire city with the happy tune.

    Only Guo Fu could be unhappy on a day like this.

    "Stupid girl. All this, and she has the gall to keep us waiting?" she grumbled, shoving the cakes the servant had placed before her to the floor. "I'll just have to drag her down here myself, even if I have to knock her unconscious."

    A smile played at the corners of her lips.

    "Preferably unconscious."



    Guo Fu stomped up the stairs of the inn, leaving behind a trail of dusty splinters as she went. As she approached, Guo Fu could hear the faint cries of her sister. "No, Brother....it's not....I could never...Sister loves....so much..."


    Guo Fu sped up her pace. Could it be that Xiang Er was up to something improper? "What Sister is she talking about anyways? Me? No, she also calls that Xiao Long Nu sister, because of her damned 'big brother' Yang Guo. I swear it, sometimes I believe that Xiang Er treats her better than she does me.

    "Well, you're going to get it, little girl. Oh, you're going to get it. I can promise you tha --- aggghhh..." Guo Fu's rants turned to an intelligible moan, words failing to describe the hell before her. Her beloved husband, Yelu Qi, stared at her glassy eyed, his head cocked at an impossible angle. A crooked smile played on his lips. He seemed almost to be looking curiously at her, if not for the fact that his chin was aligned with his right shoulder. Yelu Qi's chest was collapsed, crushed by an incredible force. His ribs were shattered, organs were rendered useless. His bleeding arm was draped across a still form on the bed, naked save a few scraps of silk still clinging to the body.

    As Guo Fu crept closer, she saw that the left side of his face was a pulpy mess. the eye burst, jaw smashed -- the awkward grin was a grimace of pain. He was beyond saving. She began beating on his still form with her fists: anger and pain and fear her fuel, her loneliness the reason. Even as she embraced his body through her sobs, she saw the body on the bed, a pool of blood spreading slowly spreading along its frame. With trembling fingers, she traced the pattern back to its source -- an ugly dagger rammed in Guo Xiang's right side with lethal force.

    It was then that Guo Fu heard a noise behind her. She whirled in time to see a glimpse of a sleeve before a raging wind knocked her back against a beam of the bed. In her fading consciousness, Guo Fu could only mutter two words, over and over:

    Yang Guo, Yang Guo...
    Last edited by sixdays; 05-03-07 at 09:42 AM.
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  2. #1962
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Before any real debating or inputs...

    I would like to say, I love your analysis (especially the anologies). This is a very interesting way to compare the two Legendary heros.

    ______________________________

    IMHO: based on the current facts listed, I would still think GJ has a slight edge. I personally don't think that YG's sad palms have infinite power based on his state of depression. This is more of an interprative issue of the famous "The palm is connected to the heart" quote in the novel. Hence, even at max sadness, I don't think sad palms is necessarily stronger than XL18P.

    And using the RPG analogy, I have posted before in another thread that I believe L/R techique is like an ability to cast two equally powerful spells in one round rather than a skill that divides internal energy (or MP) and executes two relatively weaker stances.

    Thus, YG must use a single arm (and other body parts) to deal with someone who can deal 2 Greats level palms in one exchange.
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 05-04-07 at 12:28 AM.

  3. #1963
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    a couple of great points there, snafu, and thanks for the compliments. i'll be finishing up the background story in a little bit, but for now i'd like to address that little bit about L/R technique.

    i like the idea that it could be like casting two "spells" or "techniques". carrying the analogy further, two things could happen to GJ during the course of the fight:

    1) he is able to execute 2 powerful moves at a time, seeking to overwhelm YG from the start, or

    2) he will use one hand for defensive techniques, and one hand for offensive techniques.

    i believe the second scenario is much more likely. why? think about it: if GJ is able to use two stances of HL18Z repeatedly, what must happen? he will use up his internal energy twice as quickly. recall the fight between Zhou BoTong and Qiu Qian Ren, another pair of closely matched fighters. even though they are both powerful in their own right, the fight lasted at least a whole day.

    a whole day, man! 24 hours!

    JY had mentioned during the sparring of ZBT and YG that "if one fighter were to overpower another, that'd be really difficult. But to simply defend takes much less energy" (i'm paraphrasing here). JY mentioned this regarding YG's one hand, and how he wasn't at a disadvantage while defending against ZBT's two.

    anyways, the point is this: if GJ kept using power moves from the start with L/R hand technique, YG would simply wait him out until he got weary, and then finished him off. the more likely scenario is GJ will attack with one hand using HL18Z, but save the other hand to use Vacant Fist, seeking to neutralize any yang-style attacks YG might throw at him. This would gve GJ the advantage, and would force YG to do something creative in order to break up GJ's impenetrable defense.

    by the way, i don't think YG's emotions are a free ticket to powering up his techniques, either. what we have to realize is that YG created the techniques out of pure boredom, kicking and punching along the beach. it isn't until he fuses the strange movements with the sorrow of his heart that he's able to tap into something truly great.

    in other words, his sadness isn't "nitrous", giving his kung fu a boost --- the sadness is his "engine". if he's not sad, Sad Palms won't even work...he won't understand his own movements. when he's brokenhearted, then it works. it doesn't necessarily get stronger.


    wil
    Last edited by sixdays; 05-04-07 at 01:12 AM.
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  4. #1964
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixdays View Post
    a couple of great points there, snafu, and thanks for the compliments. i'll be finishing up the background story in a little bit, but for now i'd like to address that little bit about L/R technique.

    i like the idea that it could be like casting two "spells" or "techniques". carrying the analogy further, two things could happen to GJ during the course of the fight:

    1) he is able to execute 2 powerful moves at a time, seeking to overwhelm YG from the start, or

    2) he will use one hand for defensive techniques, and one hand for offensive techniques.

    i believe the second scenario is much more likely. why? think about it: if GJ is able to use two stances of HL18Z repeatedly, what must happen? he will use up his internal energy twice as quickly. recall the fight between Zhou BoTong and Qiu Qian Ren, another pair of closely matched fighters. even though they are both powerful in their own right, the fight lasted at least a whole day.
    Completely agree. GJ would run out of internal energy 2x as fast if he keeps executing L/R. But could the new modified 9-Yin Dragon Palms drain internal less quickly than the original H7G ones? Another question to ask is, who has a larger resevoir of internal power, or in other words, who can most last longer and be more efficient in a real fight?


    Quote Originally Posted by sixdays View Post
    by the way, i don't think YG's emotions are a free ticket to powering up his techniques, either. what we have to realize is that YG created the techniques out of pure boredom, kicking and punching along the beach. it isn't until he fuses the strange movements with the sorrow of his heart that he's able to tap into something truly great.

    in other words, his sadness isn't "nitrous", giving his kung fu a boost --- the sadness is his "engine". if he's not sad, Sad Palms won't even work...he won't understand his own movements. when he's brokenhearted, then it works. it doesn't necessarily get stronger.
    Once again, for a YG fan, I really enjoy your relatively fair approach to YG's abilities. I also believe that the "sadness" is the "engine" whereby YG can truly unleash the potential of the sad palms. Much like the Jade Maiden swordset-- it can be executed by any 2 random AT disciples that have learned the set... however, the TRUE potential of Jade Maiden is only unleashed IF the executors are in love and connect with one another.

  5. #1965
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    Completely agree. GJ would run out of internal energy 2x as fast if he keeps executing L/R. But could the new modified 9-Yin Dragon Palms drain internal less quickly than the original H7G ones? Another question to ask is, who has a larger resevoir of internal power, or in other words, who can most last longer and be more efficient in a real fight?




    Once again, for a YG fan, I really enjoy your relatively fair approach to YG's abilities. I also believe that the "sadness" is the "engine" whereby YG can truly unleash the potential of the sad palms. Much like the Jade Maiden swordset-- it can be executed by any 2 random AT disciples that have learned the set... however, the TRUE potential of Jade Maiden is only unleashed IF the executors are in love and connect with one another.
    that brings up an interesting point in XLN, and i'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here. we see later in ROCH that, because of L/R hand technique, XLN's jade maiden swordplay has reached a level way beyond what LCY could have imagined, and can actually hold back 5 top tier fighters using six swords --- the same 5 fighters that GJ held back in the mongolian camp, and this is 16 years later when they are even stronger. she did it with 6 swords, as well.

    i think we really underestimate XLN's martial arts prowess in the novel. It' not until the quanzhen elders intervene that she really starts losing --- in fact, the two biggest reasons that she couldn't come out the winner were:

    1) Jade Maiden swordplay has no killing moves.

    the swordplay was intended to be written almost as a love letter to WCY, and was really all about form over function. i compare it to wushu kungfu today (in other words, the stuff jet li does). completely beautiful and hits very hard, but bruce lee went on record to say that it wasn't that great of an art, and could be defeated because of so much time wasted on pretty movements instead of speed and accuracy.

    2) XLN has no stamina.

    the fact is, the greater the level of understanding between the practitioners of Jade Maiden, the stronger the art will be. thanks to L/R hand technique, there is no pair that will communicate better than XLN's own hands. the problem here, however, is that she's faced with a completely overbearing level of internal energy from GLFW's newly learned dexterity level. even YG, who increased his power exponentially, was barely able to keep up with the monk. how much less for XLN, who just ate honey and wrote on bees for 16 years?

    now, lest we look down on XLN for not dominating, i don't really recall GJ coming away with an outright win over these same opponents, either. i think it would have really been interesting to see L/R jade maiden swordplay executed by someone of a Greats level internal energy. can you imagine someone like ZBT?
    Last edited by sixdays; 05-04-07 at 09:11 AM.
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  6. #1966
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    In response to XLN's L/R technique and Jade Maiden--

    1) It really does show how powerful and versatile L/R can be

    2) XLN's Jade Maiden was still stated (I forget where) to still be weaker than if she had done it with YG. Thus making it more incredible that XLN held off the same people that GJ had trouble with.

    But I believe this fight was the pre-16 year seperation. So GJ's previous encounter shouldn't be overlooked. They Mongolian mercenaries were not much more powerful when they fought XLN.

    None the less, with her speed and surprise factor, she was at least able to hold back the Mongolian warriors for a prolonged period of time. That is quite a feat for someone that has so little internal stamina like you mentioned. Although eventually, she would've lost once the Mongolian mercenaries realized their internal power advantge.

    And yes, it's hillarious that someone who just ate honey all her life is able to do such feats.

    It would be interesting to see someone like ZBT or GJ use the Jade Maiden swordplay. But I wonder if they can execute it properly? Because XLN actually felt the essence of the technique when she was executing it with YG. But would somone like ZBT be able to understand the subtlty of such a technique without even being THAT much in love?

  7. #1967
    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    Before any real debating or inputs...

    I would like to say, I love your analysis (especially the anologies). This is a very interesting way to compare the two Legendary heros.

    ______________________________

    IMHO: based on the current facts listed, I would still think GJ has a slight edge. I personally don't think that YG's sad palms have infinite power based on his state of depression. This is more of an interprative issue of the famous "The palm is connected to the heart" quote in the novel. Hence, even at max sadness, I don't think sad palms is necessarily stronger than XL18P.

    And using the RPG analogy, I have posted before in another thread that I believe L/R techique is like an ability to cast two equally powerful spells in one round rather than a skill that divides internal energy (or MP) and executes two relatively weaker stances.

    Thus, YG must use a single arm (and other body parts) to deal with someone who can deal 2 Greats level palms in one exchange.
    If this was true then the internal energy would still be split... unless you think someone has the internal energy to perform a full dragon palm and a full say .. vacant fist.. but that doesn't make sense becuz an attack doesn't have limits on how much internal energy can be used for the attack, so there is no way you can do 100% dragon palm and 100% vacant fist considering the 100 means the person's total internal energy tank and not the energy allowed for his move since this doesn't exist. My final point THEY CAN'T use two equally powerful attacks without diminishing the power if GJ used a FULL POWER DP becuz that would be all the internal energy possible he could unleash. My point is that a full 100% DP is better than a powerful dragon palm and a powerful vacant fist, because his internal energy is not split in just one attack. You get my point?

    BASICALLY MY opinion is either 50/50 or LR just allows you to attack with full power and then recall and send out another attack almost at the same time.. so yes like you two discussed.. takes more energy

  8. #1968
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    BASICALLY MY opinion is either 50/50 or LR just allows you to attack with full power and then recall and send out another attack almost at the same time.. so yes like you two discussed.. takes more energy
    that's an interesting thought, but i differ from you here. the whole point of L/R hand technique is executing two moves at the same time. there's no "full out, then draw back and shoot out again" action going on here --- that wouldn't make sense at all, given the art is called Left Right Hands Technique.

    remember, executing a martial arts move takes a certain amount of internal energy, but they are NOT going all out in every stroke. that only ever happens when two fighters compare internal energy directly, usually through palms. if a fighter struck with 100% of their power from the start, they would lose as soon as they missed a move.
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  9. #1969
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Moreover, the theory behind XL18P allows one to send out attacks with just 30% power and instantly shift it to 100% or 0%. The point of L/R is that since the two disparate attacks are like two people instead of just one person using a two-handed attack, it's actually a boost of technique.

  10. #1970
    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixdays View Post
    that's an interesting thought, but i differ from you here. the whole point of L/R hand technique is executing two moves at the same time. there's no "full out, then draw back and shoot out again" action going on here --- that wouldn't make sense at all, given the art is called Left Right Hands Technique.

    remember, executing a martial arts move takes a certain amount of internal energy, but they are NOT going all out in every stroke. that only ever happens when two fighters compare internal energy directly, usually through palms. if a fighter struck with 100% of their power from the start, they would lose as soon as they missed a move.
    well exactly.. they usually won't always go all out but i just said that to say that L/R isn't that great if you face someone like ZWJ who has 9 yang and QDKLY.. becuz the internal energy will be split and then it's even easier for ZWJ's shield and reversals to turn it right back.. regardless where you attack from.. cuz the internal energy is not going to be greater than ZWJ

    And yes it's a boost of technique but like I said won't work against ZWJ.. his shield will just reflect it back assuming the greater than or less than theory

  11. #1971
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    QKDNY is not magic.

  12. #1972
    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    No but it reverses everything thrown at it as long as the internal energy used int hat attack is not greater than the user or the internal supplemented for QDKLY... it's not magic, but it seems like it lol

  13. #1973
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Neither does it reverse everything. If it did, ZWJ would never ever get hit since he did in fact surpass everyone (including the combined Du Monks) in internal energy.

    It's still technique in the end and not unlimited. It's also inferior to the highest theories of the Central Plains (i.e., what XL18P is based on [I-Ching], what Vacuum Fist is based on [Taoist Theory], what Tai Chi is based on [Taoist Theory]).

  14. #1974
    Senior Member batmankiller's Avatar
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    well yea it's technique but the 9 yang shield is passive and works the way i mentioned it.. as long as internal energy is weaker.. it'll deflect or reflect

  15. #1975
    Senior Member Yang Guo's Avatar
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    Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang is based on I-Ching?!

    I just learned something new

  16. #1976
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not so I'll just post this quote:
    Hong Qigong’s martial art was from the ‘hard’ and ‘yang’ [positive, male] side, but when the hardness reached its peak, by default there would be softness in the middle of hardness. The fundamental of this martial art can be found in the Book of Changes [‘I Ching’], where the older ‘yang’ gave birth to the younger ‘yin’. Hence, within the Proud Dragon Repents and the Treading on Frost to Reach the Ice the hard energy and soft power blended together and was impossible to distinguish.

    XL18P isn't such an inferior attack that you would send a smash and if it was resisted, the blow is lost. It was made clear that a blow is sent with very little power and when the hit is landed, suddenly the full power is unleashed (this could possibly be the reason why it's easy to injured yourself without a good internal energy base... or at least an orthodox one). L/R gives the advantage in technique so a blow is more easily landed, but once anything connects, a master would certainly land it with full power.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 05-05-07 at 03:58 PM.

  17. #1977
    Senior Member Yang Guo's Avatar
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    If you were referring to me, I was not being sarcastic. Thanks for the info

  18. #1978
    Senior Member sixdays's Avatar
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    chrono, that's a really interesting fact about XL18Z. it's definitely going to help GJ against YG.

    but now that YG knows about it (see above post, haha) should i just consider it neutralized?

    jp
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  19. #1979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yang Guo View Post
    Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang is based on I-Ching?!

    I just learned something new
    Now, what's I-Ching?
    ..ext88

  20. #1980
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixdays View Post
    chrono, that's a really interesting fact about XL18Z. it's definitely going to help GJ against YG.

    but now that YG knows about it (see above post, haha) should i just consider it neutralized?

    jp
    lol, I had assumed you've already taken that into account. After all, SP should be on par with XL18P (as HYS experienced it).


    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88 View Post
    Now, what's I-Ching?
    The I-Ching is also known as "The Book of Changes". The only thing you need to know about it in wuxia is that many of the highest level martial arts are based on it.

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