The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[darkcser]

We really need a FAQ with the appropriate references for this thread. Invariably the same claims and counter-claims crop up again and again.

Ideally it'll just be a collection of facts for the reader to derive their own conclusion from. Some analysis might be useful too but whenever possible flaws/loopholes in proposed explanations should be addressed. Think of this a quest for truth... whatever that may be.

The only rule should be: if you can't find a quote to back your statements then don't make them.

Am I asking for too much in this forum?

[Noodles]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
Gwok Jing was also able to adapt the Left/Right Hand Technique so that it would enhance his inner power training as well as his techniques (this was an angle that Chow Bak Tung hadn't even considered).

Can you tell me the source of this statement because there's been posts on this subject before but no one can give me a quote...

[superboy]

--- Actually, I based mine mainly on the novel; however, if I use ROCH83,etc I'll/We'll ("should") indicate it. Besides, your finger strength really helps clarify "gaps" in LOCH/ROCH translations.

But then why were u saying that Yi Deng was letting QQR hit him on purpose though?

--- GWM got his followers and his status [command] for help and GJ got his wife and followers for help; however, GJ "need" to teach things himself. The PeachBlossom scene [near beginning of ROCH] where he taught his own pupils [Wu brothers and his daughter], and later, especially Guo Polo. And, GJ and HR are the only one's "really" overseeing the XiangYang army, the general is um ... whatever.

I found it very unlikely to say that GJ can actually be more busy than the others. He has no political position there and he doesn't neccessary need to train them all personally. It would be pretty simple to just teach the lessons to the generals so they can teach becak the soilders. I don't believe that GJ is any more busy than the other Greats and GLFW. In fact, they might even have more work to do. GLFW don't just sit there. He was like a abbot and imprerial priest at the same time.

--- Ya getting desperate. We all know GJ will "die" [JY stated] if not for those Champion [Mongol] morons doing their competition against each other.

Not at all. I never said that GJ will win. But he was very good in fending them and could have escaped without a scretch easiliy if it wasn't for YG.

--- The phrase "In his thoughts he said that: Uncle Guo's 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms were likely to be invicible in the world." First, the key is "were likely," meaning an uncertainty versus "is." Second, he's "talking to himself" and not comparing to other greats. During that time, YG lucked out on beating GWM (even with the Dog-BeatingStick near ChingYing's forest; I mean, a rock suddenly hit GWM: cheesy), so YG has no respect for GWM. He just has more respect for GJ and even with the IronSword, we did say he was "not" a great. As for the your comment "So now in the new version, YG no longer thought that he's invincible with his Iron Sword," you are basing this "prior" his fight with GWM, and YG still "say" he is invincible afterward.

So what if he thought "were likely". The thing is, he had seen all the Greats and and GLFW in action and that is what he thought. You don't see he think that at the other Greats like H7G and OYF. I don't believe that it were ever said that YG underestimated GLFW becasue he got smack by a rock. There need to be basis on your reasons. I believe YG knows very well what level GLFW is at.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by -NSX-
YG = defeated GWM with 1 palm

Can GJ do that?

So it's safe to say YG > GJ by a margin.

Of course GJ cannot defeat GWM with one palm, because he has two palms. YG, on the other hand, tries as he may he would never *defeat* GWM with two palms. Why, because he only has one palm j/k

[Vash|7ds]

This is just a vague conclusion of mine. Would it be fair to say that in a fight between YG and GJ, it comes down to the SadPalms Vs DragonPalms. Since SadPalms is just one notch below DragonPalms (as it's described by JY himself that dragonpalms is the ultimate), both would be seriously injured. Therefore, its just like the episode with OYF vs GJ exchanging plams. Anyway this is my scenario:

YG vs GJ= over a few hundreds or even thousands of stances are exchanged = palms exchanged = both injured = GJ recovers quicker ( due to various factors ie. 9yin, experience, internal energy ) = beating YG= GJ goes home for dinner = YG dies in arms of XLN = XLN cries = goes for revenge but can't touch GJ since HR is there 2vs1 are unfair = XLN suicide ! the end

[Han Solo]

Anyone care to post a review/summary of the thread so far for ppl like me who are lazy to read through everything (esp since it is so confusing with everyone saying everything at once) but are interested in knowing what is happening?

Anything new besides the standard arguements?

[Anonymous]

Ken: True, but it's also true that the process of healing Wong Yung's Iron Palm-inflicted injury in LOCH drained a significant portion of 1 Deng's inner power, which was compromised again during ROCH when he took that Iron Palm hit from his student, Chi Yan (i.e. Kau Cheen Yan). Considering all this physical trauma, 1 Deng's inner power might have been gone for good if not for something . . . possibly the 9 Yum Jen Ging.

--- "Red Herring" (diverting attention) logical fallacy. Miraculous "healing" powers of 9Yin is good "after" the battle not during the battle. So, stop "wow"-ing those that havent decided yet.
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NSX: Sad palms is at the same level as HL18Z.

--- No. SadPalms is "same level" as "GJ's" HL18Z (BIG difference.)
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hit: This is not D&D but wuxia.In fact in wuxia,'stuck' is potentially more beneficial in increasing one martial arts for example QQR after 1st Wah Shan Tournament,GJ stuck in Peach Blossom Island,C3F in his meditation room.Training soldier also count as exprience

--- Places like QQR's domain, PeachIsland,etc are "ideal" places to train martial arts (ie. QQR got the training room and PeachIsland got solitude,etc). GJ is in a "war"/"babysitting" situation (the weight of "earthly troubles"). Besides, GJ's "learning years" as a soldier are over: this gy is a commander (ie. brain-power, charismatic appearances and not brawn-power).
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hit: You don't seem to understand my example.If you take out H7G and AYF name the basic concept is still the same.If 2 fighters who have equal in inner powers and skill,they will let their techniques to decide who is better.So it doesn't matters whether H7G and AYF is dead b4 16 years or Greats had improved a lot after 16 years.As long they are about equal in inner power,technique can be a deciding factor.

--- Even OYF vs. H7G battle is "lastly" determined by innerPower and they were dying then. And about that OYF "losing" to H7G becuz of the Dog-beating stick; OYF got his "snake staff" moves [if he "got" his stick with him] that H7G probably couldnt counter too. The "context" of the technique-competition is just "one-sided." Besides, OYF "doesnt" need to "counter" the dog-stick, just "defend" against it (think ZBT vs. GWM_lv10) Besides, a "great" with a weapon [H7G got his bamboo stick] vs a non-weap great has a slight advantage.
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hit: I read your quote but it doesn't mean YG practised QZ inner power formula but rather knew the theory only.Furthermore 9 Yin inner power formula are much better but they shared similiar trait.

--- Sorry, there's more but I thought the AncientTomb rule should be enough: here ya go:

Xiao Long Nuu said, “When my master and I learnt Quan Zhen’s kung fu, after practising for a while, we found it was difficult to make any sort of progress, and because ancestor grandma had passed away, we could not ask anyone. We didn’t know the formulae to accompany it [the techniques], and so we couldn’t solve this problem. I once wanted to go and steal the formula from Quan Zhen, and give it to master to study. This is all there is of this skill, it’s only Quan Zhen’s skills, it’s not too important if we can’t learn it now. There is no need to be angry, there is a solution, all we got to do is go can capture a Quan Zhen Taoist and force the formulae out of him, then our problems will be solved. Let’s leave.”

These words suddenly awoken something in Yang Guo, and he remembered that Zhao Zhi Jing had taught him ‘The Quan Zhen Taoist Song’. ‘When first practising one must open the nine openings, the first originating from the ‘Back’ (wei luu) pressure point. First the spring flows from the bottom of the feet to the knee. Pass the knee up to the back, the back intent quickly reaching the peak. The gold lock passes under the magpie bridge, twelve palaces topple as it goes.” He then recited those words out.

Xiao Long Nuu listened to the meaning of the song and said, “It does sound like the important aspects of practising Quan Zhen’s kung fu. If you know more, that’ll be great.” So Yang Guo recited all the formulae that Zhao Zhi Jing had taught him. The formulae that Zhao Zhi Jing had taught him was the basics of Quan Zhen’s advanced internal energy cultivation, but because he wasn’t taught how to use it, the ‘spring flows’, ‘twelve palaces’ and ‘back intent’ were all words to him and didn’t understand, so he just remembered it and didn’t use it.

Xiao Long Nuu was more experienced and pointed out the key points, and then Yang Guo understood immediately. Within a few months, the two managed [to train and] to understand and grasp the essence of the skills that Wong Chong Yang left on the ceiling.

One day, the two were in the room sparring with swords when Xiao Long Nuu sighed and said, “At first when I heard that Quan Zhen’s martial arts was the most orthodox in the world, I didn’t think too much of it, but today, I know now Quan Zhen’s kung fu is actually very profound. Although we have grasped the essence of these skills, if we wanted to learn it to a state where body and mind becomes one, I don’t know how many years and months it is going to take.”

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hit: Even though the greats are better in ROCH compared to 2nd Wah Shan tournament but it doesn't made my statement wrong.The basic concept is still the same.GJ who is weaker than H7G can fend off H7G's dragon palm with L/R hand while at ROCH ZBT and GWM was about equally strong.If someone who is weaker can do that to a stroinger opponent why can't ZBT able to do that to GWM who is about equal not much stronger?

--- I dont have the Huashan translation; but here are my impressions. First, the "greats" was surprised that GJ did a technique they dont know about and that it's that effective (ie near top-skill) against them. Second, you will notice that it doesnt "harm" these opponents if they also have the skill (meaning, blocking L/R techniques is "not" a problem). [YG vs. ZBT is a good example, where YG "looks" like he's getting his butt kicked around.] Third, I think H7G and HYS been weakened by OYF (frankly I think GJ's level is near the "greats" by now, similar to YG prior the 16year separation), and GJ was able to go head-to-head with them [similar to YG vs. GWM at QZ palace.] Fourth, dont underestimate GJ's abilities like the whole 9Yin, HL18Z, VacantFist, etc [The sum is greater than its parts thing.] Finally, the greats were like YG (who thought ZBT cannot take his stuff) and (slowly?) increased their attacks, still kicked GJ's butt. [What do you except from a "boot camp"? ]
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hit: 9 Yin still beat every part of Old Tomb martial arts and the fact YG knew a bit of 9 Yin.So your point that YG chose to train DGKB method is incorrect since YG understood more of DGKB principle than 9 Yin.

--- What I'm stressing is YG's increasing resume of top-notch innerPower building skills [the summation of these is greater than their individual arts thing, and use this to rival or stave off 9Yin.]. Add in DGQB's stuff is YG rochs. And, YG "did" understand 9Yin stuff. He practiced it with XLN after they escaped the AncientTomb, and he improved his understanding through the battle of OYF vs. H7G (both using 9Yin principles too). And then there's Hero'sFeast.
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hit: Furthermore your latest quotation on YG knowing more 9 Yin is not entirely correct.He only saw the application of bits of 9 Yin not learning the formula of it.

--- My idea is that it's not just application but the "essence"/comprehension of what 9Yin teaches. [Formula is (I think) a tool to teach the underlying principles.][Recall in DG9J training, FQY told LingHuChong that the key to mastering DG9J is to "comprehend" it and it's ok to forget DG9J.][This is one reason (I think) how GJ could "imitate" 1YangFinger,FlickingFingers,etc.]
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dcser: If this makes such a difference why isn't ZBT super powerful then? He's got a good 20 years on GJ in terms of QZ and 9Yin -like you said once he learn them he doesn't need to actively practice them to advance. By your logic ZBT should be all powerful.

--- That's what we YG fans are trying to "prove." Maybe we need Athena's "rolling Pin" for emphasis. [Ya know, give them the GWM "groove." haha]

[Anonymous]

Cand: After Yideng translated that part, he told GJ and HR that according to it, he could recover his inner power in 3 months (or was it 6) instead of 3-5 years like before. Then he told GJ and HR to give HQG this translation so that HQG could recover from his injury.

--- Before I begin, thx Candide for all your replies/info. So in essence, H7G and 1Deng knows the "sanskrit" part too? Then, cant we use H7G and 1Deng as guide on GJ's innerPower development? [And they got more innerPower to begin with. whaah.]
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Cand: Re: GJ vs OYF at the beginning of ROCH.
It wasn't totally clear who was winning, but GJ was fighting with a disadvantage (he didn't want to injure innocent bystanders) while OYF was going all out, and he recovered much faster from the injury than OYF, I'd say that in a fair fight, GJ would win. Therefore GJ > OYF at the beginning of ROCH.

--- Actually, GJ's disadvantage makes him losing the battle and then HR interferes, and then GJ "ties" with OYF. And GJ and OYF both hit each other in the dark. Mainly, it's a "tie." [refer to my GJ vs. OYF topic around 5 or more pages back: got highlights/italics for easier scanning. ] As for the healing, again it's "after" the battle and 9Yin is notorious for its "recuperative" powers and OYF got another stabbing from GJ's teacher.
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Cand: With this whole X vs Y thing, based on the details in the novels (LOCh and ROCH) I believe that:
- GJ vs the Greats would be similar to WCY vs the Greats. ie he wouldn't be vastly superior to them, but enough to win like how WCY won in the first HS tournament. The Greats would lose to WCY or GJ while openly respecting GJ's or WCY's skills as being superior to theirs. So GJ would be, at the end of ROCH, superior to the Greats in both techniques and inner power. 9 Yin = Win.

--- Your whole argument is an uncertain event (WCY vs. the greats) and power of 9Yin (especially the innerPower growth portion, which we YG fans are putting into question still).
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Cand: GWM had the worst luck and mentality. He was always afraid of losing. He didn't even dare to fight GJ directly at the Mongolian camp. Perhaps he learnt his lesson after exchanging palms with GJ in the Luk Manor at the beginning of ROCH Remember how he felt severe pain in the chest and couldn't continue after that palm exchange, whereas GJ had no problem at all ? GJ was clearly superior to GWM.

--- However, you're "downplaying" the reality of the clash, which is that when their top skills (GJ's HL18Z and GWM'sAttack) clash: they are "equal." I admit because of GWM's pride and political situation (the "main goal" was to counter the hero's meeting), he had to "show" superiority (where there were none) and got hurt as a result.
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Cand: Technique-wise, GJ was always better. In the inner power department, I doubt GWM's Tibetan one could compare with 9 Yin. Talking about mentality, GJ was The Warrior (bit like XF), very confident, calm and decisive. In contrast, GWM was like a thief most of the time, afraid of getting caught (losing).

--- I admit that technique-wise during Hero'sFeast that GWM cannot compare to GJ; howver, that "was" 16 years ago. After 16years, HYS's flickingFingers is more refined and uses "chi" now. And GJ did "refine" his techniques during his "10" years in PeachBlossom Island before ROCH, so why not GWM? which he proved in his battle with YG using his "hearing" than merely his eyes (meaning L/R technique may not work.)
--- As for GWM's mentality, he was now competing with ZBT/HYS/1Deng. And him running away to preserve his life is "logical" when the "greats" are ganging up on him. As for GWM's "fear" of YG winning during the last battle, he did what any villain (no "self-fulfillment") does when he is uncertain about victory: he do what it takes to win and cheats and takes the easy way out.
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Cand: - Now, finally YG vs GJ
The only thing YG had going for him was his Sad Palms, which were mostly based on the Greats' kungfu, which GJ knew already. GJ never had any problem fighting people who had weird techniques, after HQG taught him how to deal with those in
LOCH.

--- First, SadPalms "doesnt" mostly base on "greats" martial arts. Out of the 4 stances durign ZBT vs. YG, ZBT only recognized "one" during the battle. As for weird martial arts, YG dealt with a few in his 16year separation (I think). Besides, GWM proves it doesnt matter what technique used (the "hearing" thing).
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Cand: GJ knew a lot of things that YG didn't know much about : Many 9 Yin techniques, 72 Kongming Fists, Dragon Palms the 9 Yin version, and the endless combinations of these techniques made possible with the L/R technique.

--- ZBT used "all" 72 VacantFists on YG, DemonSubduingFist of 9Yin (to me represent DragonSubduingPalms since you said 9Yin is all powerful), L/R technique and combinations, and YG "did" handle them all.
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Cand: YG was kinda struggling against ZBT with the L/R technique. GJ would make it even harder for him as he knew the Dragon Palms (the rest of his techniques were similar to ZBT's).
-> GJ > YG in this.

--- L/R is like a blackStar to YG's "one-hand." Even the greats in LOCH had a little trouble with GJ's L/R and this is "ZBT." The fact YG only "struggles"/blocks the L/R technique means he has come up without a reply/counter "yet." Blame GX to for preventing YG's final reply. However, YG later proves that he "can" handle L/R technique. This has been proven already, so your statement is void. And GJ's HL18Z = (HYS'sFinger) = GWM'sAttack = VacantFist ~=(9Yin DemonSubduingFist) = SeaPalms = SadPalms.
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Cand: I believe that GJ's 9 Yin power combined with his Quanzhen one (they were theoretically the same, really, with 9 Yin being a better version) would increase dramatically at a much higher rate than the Greats', if what ZBT said about his brother WCY was true. Zhou said that Quanzhen inner power would increase at that kind of rate over the years, and that (this is in LOCH, when he taught GJ martial arts) if WCY was still alive then, he would defeat the 4 Greats in a day (instead of 7 days like in the 1st HS tournament).
Therefore I believe GJ >> the Greats at the end of ROCH.

--- Your statement is "if what ZBT said about his brother WCY was true." Doesnt WCY also tends to exaggerate? [Look at his childish competition with LingChuYing.] Think AncientTomb'sIceBed.
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Cand: As stated above, YG was only a bit better than the Greats, and it's mostly about lasting longer since he was in his prime while the Greats were at the wrong end of the slope (in their 90s).

--- It is not "just" about lasting longer than the greats, stamina-ly. When they duel in innerPower, both sides drain the same amount of juice/innerPower. In the end, it's the one with the higher innerPower.
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Cand: GJ, on the other hand, was a wise, calm and decisive person who always had clear goals in life, and was determined to achieve those goals. He was honest, loyal and modest, and respected everyone. He was also a hero who "worried about things before the people, and enjoyed his happiness after the people". His martial arts, no matter how good they were, were constantly put to good use of the people. He was worthy of every fortune that came his way.
[...]
What did YG have to compare with that ? Nothing. What use did YG have for all that martial arts stuff ? Not much. He would be better off spending his whole life in that cave with XLN (ie having no adventure in ROCH at all). YG, for the most parts in ROCH, was a waste of space, annoying and teasing people, including so many silly girls that happened to fall for him.

--- nice use of "Pathos": "emotional" appeal. Almost "emotional blackmail."

[Anonymous]

Super: Not at all. I never said that GJ will win. But he was very good in fending them and could have escaped without a scretch easiliy if it wasn't for YG.

--- The main reason GJ escaped was the redHorse (he's like the hero's mystical weapon or flying horse, or in this case, the fastest horse.) GJ's "cannot" escape on his own abilities: was poisoned and then delayed by GWM.

Fa Wang’s martial arts and Guo Jing’s martial arts were separated by the smallest of margins, Guo Jing may have had more fortunate encounters than Fa Wang but Fa Wang was twenty years older than him; he had twenty years worth of internal energy more than Guo Jing. If the two fought one on one, they would have to exchange over a thousand stances to decide who was better. With first-rate fighters such as Ni Mo Xing and Xiao Xiang Zi by his side, it wouldn’t have been difficult to gain victory over Guo Jing but Guo Jing’s [Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms] were too powerful and along with his palm technique, he was using Quan Zhen’s [Big Dipper Formation], he went to and fro as he fought and it was like as if he had separated into seven. Another reason why he [GJ] was still holding them off was because of his immediate victory over Yin Ke Xi; this was a warning to the others and the remaining three made defence their main priority and did not dare to make a rash attack so although it was three against one, Guo Jing held his own against the three.
[...]
After a few more stances later, the power in Fa Wang’s wheel gradually increased. The force of the attacks from Ni Mo Xing’s iron snake was increasing as well.
Guo Jing was getting anxious and thought, “If this continues, I won’t be able to hold them off. Guo Er is over fighting with that giant. That giant’s martial arts are just average, Guo Er will be able to manage. I need to meet up with him [YG] as soon as possible and think of a way to get out of this place.” The four were putting all their concentration into their battle and did not dare to even blink, they did not notice Yang Guo and Ma Guang Zuo were just watching their battle a couple of feet away.

Suddenly a strange whistling noise was heard. Xiao Xiang Zi leapt up several feet into the air and pointed his Ku Sang rod downwards. Guo Jing stepped to the side to avoid it when suddenly everything went dark; a black smoke was being emitted from the Ku Sang rod. A stench filled Guo Jing’s nose and he felt slightly faint. He called in alarm to himself and knew that there was something poisonous within the Ku Sang rod and he quickly moved backwards.
Xiao Xiang Zi had seen Guo Jing had definitely taken in the black smoke but he did not faint. He was extremely shocked and thought, “Lions, tigers and any kind of wild beasts will faint as soon as they come across my toad poison but it doesn’t seem to have any kind of effect on him, that is strange.” He leapt up once again and shot out some more poison from his rod.
[...]
Guo Jing saw his chance to escape and called out, “Guo Er, let’s go!” He leapt out into the open plains. Fa Wang flew after him. Guo Jing’s back was just a few feet away from the Mongolian soldiers and immediately over ten spears were pointed towards his back. Guo Jing used his arms to parry away the spears and then grabbed and threw two soldiers towards Fa Wang. He called out, “Catch!”
If Fa Wang caught them, it would slow him down and give Guo Jing the chance to run further away so he slanted his left shoulder and knocked into the soldiers and sent them flying over ten feet away. He threw his golden wheel towards Guo Jing’s back.

Guo Jing knew if he returned just one stance, he would get caught up in a fight with Fa Wang and when Ni Mo Xing and Xiao Xiang Zi catches up, it would be difficult to escape again so he grabbed two spears and thrust it backwards. He did not slow down one bit as he did this and it was as if he had a third eye on his back; one of the spears went towards Fa Wang’s right shoulder and the other for Fa Wang’s chest. Both the direction and power behind it was complete. Fa Wang secretly praised this and then swept his golden wheel across, smashing the spears in two. By the time his [GWM] sights were back on Guo Jing, he had already darted into the Mongolian army.

This division of soldiers were ordered by Khubilai to station themselves deeply around the tent to capture Guo Jing. But when Guo Jing darted into their formation, the soldiers could do nothing about him, they could not capture him nor harm him. Sounds of spears and sabres could be heard amongst calls and shouts. These soldiers actually hindered Fa Wang and the others in their chase after Guo Jing.

Guo Jing hiding himself amongst the soldiers and horses was like hiding himself amongst a dense forest; it was actually easier for him to escape danger like this than in the open land. He ran up to a noyan and pulled him down from his horse. He leapt on the horse and galloped left and right amongst the crowd of soldiers. Soon he managed to break through the back of them and he galloped forwards, whistling as he went. The red horse was left at a faraway place and when it heard its master summoning it, it galloped like the wind towards him.

Yang Guo watched from afar as the red horse galloped towards Guo Jing. He called out to himself, “Oh no!” He knew that once Guo Jing got on the red steed, Khubilai would have no way to catch up with Guo Jing even if he summoned all the world’s men after him.

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Super: So what if he thought "were likely". The thing is, he had seen all the Greats and and GLFW in action and that is what he thought. You don't see he think that at the other Greats like H7G and OYF. I don't believe that it were ever said that YG underestimated GLFW becasue he got smack by a rock.

--- "Were likely" can be "interpreted": he was not just thinking about GJ but H7G,OYF,ZBT,etc. (There is that "uncertainty" if GJ wins against the other greats.) Besides, I "personally" dont know how events shape out that YG "would" think such the phrase "In his thoughts he said that: Uncle Guo's 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms were likely to be invicible in the world." This source of information is a "thought," meaning in "English logic terms" not as reliable as reading (by us readers) as first hand action between the greats and GJ to really determine if true. Also, think about this, YG defeats in one form or another opponents like Gongsun,GWM,etc. and he hasnt defeated HYS and GJ. This uncertainty should be applied to HYS and GJ.
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Finished another mammoth essay outline.

[philip]

Easy, XLN was able to use two type of sword strokes from the Jade Heart sword play at the same times. Which means that it will greatly improve your mobility even if you don't use two different palms with different type of energy. That's the key points, or why would he ask GJ to draw a square and circle at the same time?

no…XLN was able to be quicker b/c her left/right hand together is much more compatible than she and YG both using their right hands. it wasn’t b/c L/R increased her mobility.

I find it not too convincing to use karate in real life as an analogy. First of all, there is only a limit to strength, speed, and stamina that a person in really life can gain. While in internal energy, Taoist energy just not even does not slow down slow down, but increases as you practices. By the way, this is sort of true in real life too with the chi stuff when you practice internal chi intead of external ones like YG. Makes me think that JY is at least quite knowledgable on these stuff. Also, at least in internal energy, lets see it like a bank account. You add $300 dollars every month. By the times it's 3 years, you have $10,800? So how does that slow down? And we also see Sweeper Monk train up to his level too, which I think is about 10 times stronger than YG. Therefore, GJ is still far from reaching the martial arts limit. So, you face it

I find it odd how some “real life” examples are used, while dismissing other examples as being “not accurate enough analogy.” I mean, is comparing a bank to a physical arts better than using karate to compare to a physical art? And even if u use the bank-analogy…inflation causes money to depreciate in value over the years…so if your $300 this month would be worth much less than last month, and ur $10,800 is much less than it was last yr (depending on the inflation rate…which is always increasing) . So letz say u had a million $ 20 years ago, and now you have 2 million $….u can’t actually buy twice the things u could 20 years ago.

And why i think ZBT is more than slightly better than a Great is becasue he was able to match evenly with QQR without his L/R t4echnique, while the other Greats can't do it without their signiture moves. And then ZBT was able to win and chase QQR just after he decided to use his L/R technique. So it depends on what you consider as slight.

wouldn’t that work more to YG’s advantage because if ZBT>Greats and YG=ZBT (and perhaps better in terms of internal energy), then YG>Greats…and yet, you cannot prove that GJ>ZBT because he only surpassed the Greats while ZBT is “more than slightly better” than the Greats, meaning YG in fact, has a good chance of being > GJ.

If this makes such a difference why isn't ZBT super powerful then? He's got a good 20 years on GJ in terms of QZ and 9Yin -like you said once he learn them he doesn't need to actively practice them to advance. By your logic ZBT should be all powerful.

hey, we know that YG is at least the same level as him

Re: Icy Bed of the Ancient Tomb. I believe that initially it would give you a temporary boost in inner power but after you get used to it, it won't do anything. Might give you diarrhea even.

no…I think it was the idea that once you get used to it b/c u automatically try to heat urself up by practicing internal power…then after a while, ur body gets used to that and u will automatically practice internal power even when ur sleeping, which prevents the 90% deterioration of training, that happens to normal practitioners while they sleep.

33 vs mid 50

21~22 vs ~60

I don’t think there was a 5-10 yr gap between GJ’s “fight” w/ GWM at the heroes feast and YG’s fight w/ GWM at the QZ palace. I would say no more than one year gap between the two occasions.

It wasn't totally clear who was winning, but GJ was fighting with a disadvantage (he didn't want to injure innocent bystanders) while OYF was going all out, and he recovered much faster from the injury than OYF, I'd say that in a fair fight, GJ would win. Therefore GJ > OYF at the beginning of ROCH.

OYF was also being distracted by HR, listing out all the names

Gwok Jing figured out a way to use the Cheun Jen Sect's Big Dipper 7 Stars Formation by himself (although the skill was meant for use by seven people)

there was a section in 9 yin that was quite tangent to the dipper formations, wasn’t there?

[hitman]

Still got a bit time.

Places like QQR's domain, PeachIsland,etc are "ideal" places to train martial arts (ie. QQR got the training room and PeachIsland got solitude,etc). GJ is in a "war"/"babysitting" situation (the weight of "earthly troubles"). Besides, GJ's "learning years" as a soldier are over: this gy is a commander (ie. brain-power, charismatic appearances and not brawn-power).

Sorry your reasons are still not cnvincing enough that if you stay in XY,your progress would slow a lot.GJ was busy searching for HR throughout China yet he still has time to practise his martial arts.A serious martial artist will never neglect his training especially people like GJ.

Even OYF vs. H7G battle is "lastly" determined by innerPower and they were dying then. And about that OYF "losing" to H7G becuz of the Dog-beating stick; OYF got his "snake staff" moves [if he "got" his stick with him] that H7G probably couldnt counter too. The "context" of the technique-competition is just "one-sided." Besides, OYF "doesnt" need to "counter" the dog-stick, just "defend" against it (think ZBT vs. GWM_lv10) Besides, a "great" with a weapon [H7G got his bamboo stick] vs a non-weap great has a slight advantage.

Don't really know what your point are since in the first place we are arguing why YG was having the advantage over GWM was due to GWM weakness in his technique compared to other Greats.

Sorry, there's more but I thought the AncientTomb rule should be enough: here ya go:

Still it didn't mentioned that YG practised QZ inner power cultivation but rather knowing the theory and application.

I dont have the Huashan translation; but here are my impressions. First, the "greats" was surprised that GJ did a technique they dont know about and that it's that effective (ie near top-skill) against them. Second, you will notice that it doesnt "harm" these opponents if they also have the skill (meaning, blocking L/R techniques is "not" a problem). [YG vs. ZBT is a good example, where YG "looks" like he's getting his butt kicked around.] Third, I think H7G and HYS been weakened by OYF (frankly I think GJ's level is near the "greats" by now, similar to YG prior the 16year separation), and GJ was able to go head-to-head with them [similar to YG vs. GWM at QZ palace.] Fourth, dont underestimate GJ's abilities like the whole 9Yin, HL18Z, VacantFist, etc [The sum is greater than its parts thing.] Finally, the greats were like YG (who thought ZBT cannot take his stuff) and (slowly?) increased their attacks, still kicked GJ's butt. [What do you except from a "boot camp"?

The Greats are not suprised by GJ's technique but rather his martal arts level.GJ didn't even use any dragon palm nor L/R hand against HYS but he still managed to fend off HYS for 300 strokes.They were only going against GJ easily at the first few moves approx 3~5 moves.HYS has not fought with OYF only H7G which is the reason why HYS fought against GJ first.They didn't managed to kick GJ butt by the end of 300 strokes.

What I'm stressing is YG's increasing resume of top-notch innerPower building skills [the summation of these is greater than their individual arts thing, and use this to rival or stave off 9Yin.]. Add in DGQB's stuff is YG rochs. And, YG "did" understand 9Yin stuff. He practiced it with XLN after they escaped the AncientTomb, and he improved his understanding through the battle of OYF vs. H7G (both using 9Yin principles too). And then there's Hero'sFeast.

The 9 Yin YG knew was very small compared to GJ so by no mean standard to use it to compare to GJ.DGKB inner power training is very external might bring to a certain limitation to increasing ones inner power once reached to a certain level compared to 9 Yin.DGKB training was rather unorthodox which indeed brings a lot of inner power to YG but not a refinement to a state like GJ and 1D.

My idea is that it's not just application but the "essence"/comprehension of what 9Yin teaches. [Formula is (I think) a tool to teach the underlying principles.][Recall in DG9J training, FQY told LingHuChong that the key to mastering DG9J is to "comprehend" it and it's ok to forget DG9J.][This is one reason (I think) how GJ could "imitate" 1YangFinger,FlickingFingers,etc.]

The essence you mentioned is still ver small part of 9 Yin.

The main reason GJ escaped was the redHorse (he's like the hero's mystical weapon or flying horse, or in this case, the fastest horse.) GJ's "cannot" escape on his own abilities: was poisoned and then delayed by GWM.

That reason is similiar to YG managed to beat GWM b4 16 years was because of his 'magical' heavy sword.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Anonymous
--- "Red Herring" (diverting attention) logical fallacy. Miraculous "healing" powers of 9Yin is good "after" the battle not during the battle. So, stop "wow"-ing those that havent decided yet.
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I shared the information the way I saw it. You may take it or leave it, but please don't publically assume motivations. That's bad form.

[Anonymous]

hit: bring to a certain limitation to increasing ones inner power once reached to a certain level compared to 9 Yin.DGKB training was rather unorthodox which indeed brings a lot of inner power to YG but not a refinement to a state like GJ and 1D.

--- Look down for "More proof that 9Yin is actually ...." and look for the "aside" [that explains the hard-soft or so called "refinement."]
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Ken: [Anon:So, stop "wow"-ing those that havent decided yet.]
I shared the information the way I saw it. You may take it or leave it, but please don't publically assume motivations. That's bad form.

--- Sorry Ken, the last was a jk. BUT, understood.
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Proof of more DISASTEROUS news against GJ:
1. Regarding GWM having "a lot" (20 years) more innerPower than GJ.

ROCH, Mongolian Camp:
Fa Wang’s martial arts and Guo Jing’s martial arts were separated by the smallest of margins, Guo Jing may have had more fortunate encounters than Fa Wang but Fa Wang was twenty years older than him; he had twenty years worth of internal energy more than Guo Jing. If the two fought one on one, they would have to exchange over a thousand stances to decide who was better.

--- Before we get into this, this may be an "error" (maybe it's 2 years or JY screwed).
--- Actually, 20 extra years of "practicing" innerPower may not be much, since GWM's clash at Hero'sFeast "ties" with GJ. My interpretation of "20 years practicing": "20 year lead in research/development of a levelUp/product (ie. cancer,AIDS,gameboy,etc)." The question is what is YG's innerPower capacity during YG vs. GWM at QZ Palace?
--- This brings into consideration: did GJ even "match" the innerPower capacity of the "greats" in beginning of ROCH and OYF? [JY didnt state this except that GJ could "tie" palm outputPower with OYF and he could "tie" palm outputPower with GWM.]
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More proof that 9Yin is actually "less than" DGQG's training:

ROCH, Mongolian Camp:
Guo Jing was using the great wulin skill, the [Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms]. Fa Wang and the others kept tight on him [GJ] thinking that even if his [GJ's] internal energy was more profound, he would not be able to keep up so a powerful palm technique for much longer. But Guo Jing had been practising the [Nine Yin Manual] diligently for the last twenty years; at first his real power did not show but tens of stances later, the [Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms] suddenly became powerful and then suddenly gentle, from great hardness came softness. This was something that Hong Qi Gong did not manage to grasp all those years ago. (Aside: Meaning, the event where YangGuo did with the hard-soft sound of the woodenSword). By using this kind of palm technique to fend off these three fighters, not only did he remain on an even keel with them, he was able to counterattack when he had the chance and he was getting more and more fluent as he went on.
[...]
Yang Guo watched on in awe from the side. He too has practised the [Nine Yin Manual] before from the ancient tomb but because he had no one to instruct him, he didn’t know that the manual was this extraordinary. He followed Guo Jing’s palm techniques with the teachings of the manual and immediately he understood countless profound fist theories.

--- If GJ practiced 9Yin for 20 years. How old is GJ really? since Candide/Triste said that GJ is 33 years old at Hero'sFeast, which makes GJ starting 9Yin at age 13 (haha). [Either GJ is really 38yr old so he practiced 9Yin at 18yr old OR GJ did didnt practice 9Yin for 20 yrs.]
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Now for the result I got by graphing GJ and YG's innerPower development using GWM as a "constant" to compare the two:

1. assume GWM_innerPower = 100 = GJ_innerPower, even though GJ's innerPower is less.
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2. GJ_innerPower_rate = 100 / 33 = 3.0303 = 3.03, though GJ is probably older than 33 [which lowers the rate].
GMW_innerPower_rate = 100 / 53 = 1.8867 = 1.88, to give GJ another edge.
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3. Since Candide say YG's around 21-22 (I'm using 22 to decrease YG's innerPower_rate) during the start of 16year separation and YG was 18 during Hero'sFeast,
GJ_innerPower_total = 3.03 x (22-18 + 16yr) + 100 = 160.6
GWM_innerPower_prior_16year = 1.88 x (22-18) + 100 = 107.52, which is YG matches after 1year in 16year separation.
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4. YG_innerPower_rate = 107.52 / (22+1) = 107.5 / 23 = 4.6739 = 4.67, to give GJ another edge.
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5. YG_innerPower_total_max = 4.67 x (16yr-1) + 107.52 = 177.57, but this only if YG continues to follow DGQB's training after woodenSword.
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6. YG_innerPoewr_total_min = 4.67 x (7yr-1) + 107.52 + [1.88 x 9] = 152.46, using an undermined GWM's_innerPower_rate after the 7years of woodenSword.

Conclude:
1) This maps GJ pretty well since his slope and gain is "constant" as 9Yin manual and QZ determines.
2) GJ = 160.6, YG_min = 152.46 and YG_max = 177.57.
3) The interesting observation is that YG_innerPower_rate is greater than GJ_innerPower_rate, and GJ uses 9Yin.
4) Feel free to correct or modify this.
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There is an even better BUT more tedious way to map if 9Yin is good as advertised. For GJ in LOCH, we could list each of his age that he gainsInnerPower (like a chart) and compare with the same thing to YG for ROCH. The key is to count how many gains_in_innerPower (or intervals between gains) like the (cross-section) RINGS of a tree log. We can also compare the length of the interval between gains, where a smaller interval means a steeper gain (which we want for 9Yin).

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Anonymous

--- Sorry Ken, the last was a jk. BUT, understood.

Thank you.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Anonymous
Proof of more DISASTEROUS news against GJ: Regarding GWM having "a lot" (20 years) more innerPower than GJ.

Nope. The statement simply meant that GWM had 20 years more of internal energy training compared to GJ, but it did not mean that GWM had 20 years internal energy more than GJ. Meaning that GWM had more years of training (well, he should!), but he did not necessarily have more internal energy compared to GJ.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by rabadi
Nope. The statement simply meant that GWM had 20 years more of internal energy training compared to GJ, but it did not mean that GWM had 20 years internal energy more than GJ. Meaning that GWM had more years of training (well, he should!), but he did not necessarily have more internal energy compared to GJ.

Precisely. "Years" is a unit of time, not a unit of energy. The Golden Wheel Monk had practiced inner energy cultivation twenty years longer than Gwok Jing had (a natural function of their respective ages), but this is not to be interpreted as the Golden Wheel Monk having a greater amount of internal energy than Gwok Jing did (in fact, the Golden Wheel Monk actually did have slightly more internal energy than Gwok Jing did during their first confrontation at the Luk Family Manor, but this was a slight edge rather than the vast advantage that misreading the term "twenty years" would suggest). If that were the case, neither of the two direct confrontations between Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk during ROCH would have ended up as the closely-contested affairs that they were.

[superboy]

--- "Were likely" can be "interpreted": he was not just thinking about GJ but H7G,OYF,ZBT,etc. (There is that "uncertainty" if GJ wins against the other greats.) Besides, I "personally" dont know how events shape out that YG "would" think such the phrase "In his thoughts he said that: Uncle Guo's 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms were likely to be invicible in the world." This source of information is a "thought," meaning in "English logic terms" not as reliable as reading (by us readers) as first hand action between the greats and GJ to really determine if true. Also, think about this, YG defeats in one form or another opponents like Gongsun,GWM,etc. and he hasnt defeated HYS and GJ. This uncertainty should be applied to HYS and GJ.

Wether he was very certain or not is just a moot point. He had already met all ofthe Greats plus GLFW and he should had taken consideration of them. No offense, but aren't your reasons sort of unfair? Have I said that it is certain? No. But the thing is, YG thought that GJ is most likely to be invincible. JY no longer made YG thought that his Iron Sword is invincible under the sky. That should mean something. Not one hundred percent yes, but another point to GJ. At least it is more based than your reason of YG might not be right. We are speculating here to try to prove whom are more powerful. As long as my reasons did not just came out of the blue, and you don't have a better reason, then it's +1 for me.

I find it odd how some “real life” examples are used, while dismissing other examples as being “not accurate enough analogy.” I mean, is comparing a bank to a physical arts better than using karate to compare to a physical art? And even if u use the bank-analogy…inflation causes money to depreciate in value over the years…so if your $300 this month would be worth much less than last month, and ur $10,800 is much less than it was last yr (depending on the inflation rate…which is always increasing) . So letz say u had a million $ 20 years ago, and now you have 2 million $….u can’t actually buy twice the things u could 20 years ago.

No, I wasn't considering the skills, but in terms of internal energy. It should be ok like that. But good point, I didn't really consider the change in currency. But you get what I'm saying. Taoist internal energy simply does not slow down unless you slack off.

wouldn’t that work more to YG’s advantage because if ZBT>Greats and YG=ZBT (and perhaps better in terms of internal energy), then YG>Greats…and yet, you cannot prove that GJ>ZBT because he only surpassed the Greats while ZBT is “more than slightly better” than the Greats, meaning YG in fact, has a good chance of being > GJ.

Not really, becasue I nevcer said that YG can't beat the Greats. I just thought that he won't be really much better. And if I later succeeded YG<GJ, then that would automatically say GJ>ZBT right?

--- The main reason GJ escaped was the redHorse (he's like the hero's mystical weapon or flying horse, or in this case, the fastest horse.) GJ's "cannot" escape on his own abilities: was poisoned and then delayed by GWM.

He could escape them without the red horse, but then the army was blocking the way.

[superboy]

Conclude:
1) This maps GJ pretty well since his slope and gain is "constant" as 9Yin manual and QZ determines.
2) GJ = 160.6, YG_min = 152.46 and YG_max = 177.57.
3) The interesting observation is that YG_innerPower_rate is greater than GJ_innerPower_rate, and GJ uses 9Yin.
4) Feel free to correct or modify this.
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There is an even better BUT more tedious way to map if 9Yin is good as advertised. For GJ in LOCH, we could list each of his age that he gainsInnerPower (like a chart) and compare with the same thing to YG for ROCH. The key is to count how many gains_in_innerPower (or intervals between gains) like the (cross-section) RINGS of a tree log. We can also compare the length of the interval between gains, where a smaller interval means a steeper gain (which we want for 9Yin).

I don't think that that will be neccesary. Because then we will need to count GJ's rate with his 7 Freaks training and QZ internal energy. And YG with his Jade Heart and Ancient Tomb art. I think it should start from the end of LOCH, becasue GJ's primary cultivation all these years is 9 Yin, and will give us a more accurate rating during the 16 years. We can also use the Greats as standards if that is so since GJ=OYF at 33.

By phillip:no…XLN was able to be quicker b/c her left/right hand together is much more compatible than she and YG both using their right hands. it wasn’t b/c L/R increased her mobility.

What I meant was L/R is similar to having two fighters controling your fists, which are much better than one.

[Arching_Hero]

Originally posted by -NSX-
GJ who practiced 9 yin for 20 years, has internal energy slightly less than GWM druing their first duel. On the other hand, YG 16 years of internal energy cultivation is equal to GWM at the end of ROCH. Does this prove that YG technique of improving one's internal power is more effective than 9 yin?

Ya, but the 9Yin & Quan Zhen that Guo Jing learned will make his internal power increase day by day even he did not training
while Yang Guo's Jade Heart Manual & DGKB internal power training brings a lot of inner energy to YG but not a state like GJ which his internal power increase everyday.

[QF]

If GJ practiced 9Yin for 20 years. How old is GJ really? since Candide/Triste said that GJ is 33 years old at Hero'sFeast, which makes GJ starting 9Yin at age 13 (haha). [Either GJ is really 38yr old so he practiced 9Yin at 18yr old OR GJ did didnt practice 9Yin for 20 yrs.]

Um....well, Triste is kinda wrong here then. GJ is 33 at the BEGINNING of ROCH not at hte heroes conference. YG was 13 or 14 in the beginning. At the Heroes COnference, YG was 17 or 18 years old. Four years have passed. THat would made GJ 38 or 39.

So GJ practiced 9 yin for 20 years is accurate.