The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[superboy]

I can't really make out much from the translation. It's too abstract. Anyway, I don't think that really proves anything cause GLFW's internal energy is equal to YG. And Also close to a Great, which GJ should at least be at the level of. So how can it be that GJ can be so far behind? And yeah, are spears and lances different? Plus, if GJ used the hilt, then it explains it.

[philip]

Originally posted by superboy
It's beneficial to GJ in this debate. Get it? And a great way to imprint this in your memory so you learn.............

nope....it has no effect on the GJ debate b/c i'm not even aruging that YG is stronger...therefore it has no one side effect. beneficial to GJ is also beneficial to YG



[/quote]Cause there are others with opinions that GJ's internal energy was close to the Greats that time.

And I'll ask you how does technqiue benefit? I truely do not see why. IEspecially if it was never apllied during meditation. If you want to make claims, you would need to give evidence to it. You can't ask me to prove something that have no proofs to prove. [/QUOTE]
er? no...the opinion i belive was 70%....and 70% vs. 100% is A LOT. hey, i could win the olympics if everyone but me goes at 70%.

?? the entire 1st volume of 9Yin was about internal energy training...duh! if ZBT can unconsiously practive the techniques...i think it would be much more easier for him to unconsciously practice the internal training. afterall, QZ and 9 yin are both taoist...and tehcnique requires you to physically practice it, while internal enregy doesnt

[superboy]

Originally posted by philip
nope....it has no effect on the GJ debate b/c i'm not even aruging that YG is stronger...therefore it has no one side effect. beneficial to GJ is also beneficial to YG

Cause there are others with opinions that GJ's internal energy was close to the Greats that time.

And I'll ask you how does technqiue benefit? I truely do not see why. IEspecially if it was never apllied during meditation. If you want to make claims, you would need to give evidence to it. You can't ask me to prove something that have no proofs to prove. [/QUOTE]
er? no...the opinion i belive was 70%....and 70% vs. 100% is A LOT. hey, i could win the olympics if everyone but me goes at 70%.

?? the entire 1st volume of 9Yin was about internal energy training...duh! if ZBT can unconsiously practive the techniques...i think it would be much more easier for him to unconsciously practice the internal training. afterall, QZ and 9 yin are both taoist...and tehcnique requires you to physically practice it, while internal enregy doesnt [/B][/QUOTE]
Do not call me "duh" if you do not have proof. You used ZBT as an example when you have nothing to back up your personal speculation. That is only your opinion that ZBT benefitted internal energy unconciously. JY never ever commented that he did. If you want to use premises, then make sure your sources is over 50% reliability.

[philip]

if you can't read, "duh" is refering to the FACT that the 1st volume of 9 yin consisted of internal energy cultivation method, nay?
ZBT discoveres that he "unconsciously" practiced 9 yin technique when he accidentally "breaks" trees. i don't think that's a matter of technique but rather a matter of power.

[philip]

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GJ_ch39: That two Wan Fuchang although is in the Mongolian armed force the famous warrior, how but endures the Guo Jing supernatural power? The arm ËáÂé, two handles iron gun lets go immediately. The Guo peace is inferior to reverse the spear head, takes advantage of a situation to send to, ding-dong two, two handles iron gun rifle stock hits in two person of chests, two Wan Fuchang [generals] all threw over the chest protector iron armor, the rifle [spear] stock [hilt] could not puncture into the body, but peace [GJ] endogenic force [inner power] as soon as shook for Guo, stands ʱ¿ñ [the two generals] spurts the blood, poured hits discontinues. (Aside: GJ cannot puncture the iron armor of the generals using the hilt/stock of the spear)

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YG_ch39: A Yang spear person [YG], when stands executes. His [YG] left arm marvelous ability [Shen Gong] is practices from the mountain torrent sea tide, this lance [spear] flies throws the potential, then is the rock also can insert, much less average man flesh and blood? His each lance [spear] all was aims at general which went against ¿ø passes through the [iron] armor to send out, has shot 17 lances in a little while, has killed 17 Mongolian brave generals. (Aside: Note, YG's shoulder has already been injured by GWM prior this event. )

just for clarification...both of these happened after the 16 years rite?

correct me if i'm wrong...but i think it's saying that YG was aiming at generals, but doesn't say whether he peirced their armors or areas w/o armors.

[superboy]

if you can't read, "duh" is refering to the FACT that the 1st volume of 9 yin consisted of internal energy cultivation method, nay?
ZBT discoveres that he "unconsciously" practiced 9 yin technique when he accidentally "breaks" trees. i don't think that's a matter of technique but rather a matter of power.

Fine, if you don't think it is offending, then "duh". you need proofs instead of just saying ZBT tshould have this and that with with 9 Yin. He felt embarrassed that he used 9 Yin technique on Yg. So this tell us that he do not use it in a regular basis. And with a martial artist like ZBT, he would know it if he accidentally added 9 Yin methods on his QZ cultivation.

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by Top Dog
What make you think that YG internal power is not much better than GJ?

What makes you think it is? Other than the fact that he had all the help in the world, snake bladders, advanced training, ice beds, etc, making it strong.

Sorry, but just because nobody can prove definitively that GJ is stronger than YG doesn't mean that YG is automatically stronger than GJ.

[Anonymous]

To Phil: Yes, YG battled GWM after the 16years, right? and my proof takes place after that battle. And for the "armor-piercing" from YG, here's the exact words in highlight:
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YG_ch39: A Yang spear person [YG], when stands executes. His [YG] left arm marvelous ability [Shen Gong] is practices from the mountain torrent sea tide, this lance [spear] flies throws the potential, then is the rock also can insert, much less average man flesh and blood? His each lance [spear] all was aims at general which went against ¿ø passes through the [iron] armor to send out, has shot 17 lances in a little while, has killed 17 Mongolian brave generals. (Aside: Note, YG's shoulder has already been injured by GWM prior this event. )

[Anonymous]

Regarding GJ's MAXIMUM ability:
The proof says that GJ using the other end of the spear (the blunt end), cannot pierce the iron armor of a general but because of his profound innerPower was able to seriously injure and drop the generals. Why did GJ "only" injure the generals and not kill them? This shows what GJ cannot do: pierce the ironArmor -- a limit on GJ's ability. In contrast, YG using the piercing end of a spear, can in spite of his shoulder injury from GWMv10 battle, pierce the iron armor of each general.
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Now you (Superboy) list 2.7% as lowest increase and 4.7% as highest increase against the greats for GJ. I'll use 2.7% (to make a point), so 2.7 x 16years is 43.2% innerPower over the greats. GJ has 43.2% innerPower over the greats.
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Let us assume GJ has 43.2%/2 [or 21.6%] over GWM (assuming GWM has 21.6% over the greats) and 21.6% over YG. CONTINUE BELOW.
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let's look at another passage regarding how YG fares with the "blunt" end of a weapon: a copper baton. He was able to offhandedly (I think) insert a copper baton/pestle into the frozen earth 1 feet deep. Note:
1. the baton has a wide surface area that increases the resistance into the earth.
2. the deeper the earth, the more "packed" the ground gets.

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Yang Guo ¹þ¹þһЦ [laughs], conveniently wields, the half copper pestle [baton] very straightly inserts, submerges in the snowy area [frozen earth], instantly disappeared Ó°×Ù. The underground snow [earth] to a foot, that does not break the pestle actually to have three feet to come long, counter- as soon as inserts for him extinguishes the mark, the marvelous ability reality is astonishing.

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So, YG with a injury can pierce the iron armor of a general and kill them with the sharp end of the spear with a 21.6% less innerPower than GJ, while GJ cannot do this with the blunt end using the extra 21.6% innerPower over YG. Now also recall:
1. YG's woodenSword training, that with more innerPower the blunt woodenSword can chop a small tree down.
2. YG threw GX's (blunt) bracelet and this bracelet was inserted into the cudgel of NiMoXing and NiMoXing with his cudgel was sent into the wall.
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Now look this in another way, if the greats can armor-pierce the generals and YG has a 22.6% innerPower increase over them, can YG armor-pierce the generals using the blunt end? My proofs suggest YG could.
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THUS, GJ with 22.6% innerPower over YG/GWM cannot pierce an IronArmor is a contradiction if GJ even has an advantage over GWM/YG in innerPower. So, your theory is wrong.
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NOTE: Gys, please read the proofs which are there, I'm NOT writing an essay becuz I dont want to think too much. I like readers to piece it together themselves. I'm more into introducing the proofs.

[superboy]

If the spear head's area is 20 time sharper than the blunt end, then its penetration power increases 20 folds as well. It proves nothing...............

And I don't think penetrating a stick on the ground is really that impressive. Cause most people with profound energy can do it.

[Moinllieon]

Anonymous, just a couple of notes.

1) While it is true that in that passage you posted about GJ's use of the blunt end of a spear it never said outright that the 2 men were dead, for all practical purpose they were. In Chinese literature (namely Heroes of the Water Margins), there's a tradition of not stating outright when a man is killed in battles. When it states that those men "were chopped/hacked off their mounts", it means that they are dead. Secondly, the passage right after the one you quoted is thus:

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"The Thousand Man Leader was courageous, despite seeing his three fellow officers slain, he still charged up, spear in hand. Guo Jing used his left arm to parry away his spear and, with the spear in his right hand, slam down onto his helmet, smashing his head to bits."

Obvious, not only did GJ kill those 2 men (which he did with only the force of his blow and not the sharpness of the spear, unlike YG). The force of his blow was enough to smash the man skull despite being tempered by his helmet.

2) Never did it say anywhere in the passage that the armour was made of iron, or traditional plate armour the way we think of it. Iron armour are ridiculously heavy and worn only by specialized European knights during the Middle Ages. Even the best, heaviest, most indestructible plate armour have weak spots around the joints. The passages never stated where GJ or YG hit the men, but if YG had been aiming for the spots of weakness around their necks or armpits, it'd be too terrible of a feat to have defeated them with a sharp point.

On top of that, Mongolians distained heavy protection and are known for defying convention and sacrificing protection for speed. So the heaviest possible the type of armour worn by Mongolian calvarymen was probably chain mail, which can be EASILY penetrated by sharp points (most arrows have no problems penetrating chainmail). And that's just the strongest possible protection those men could have been wearing. More likely they were wearing a type of armour something similiar to those hard wooden or bronze (much lighter) armour favored by Japanese samurais.

[Anonymous]

Regarding YG sinking the baton 1 feet into the ground:
YG "didnt" use momentum, it was touch the ground and insert (ala 1Yang finger like). I was trying to compare this with JueYuan who used his feet and iron bucket weight with water to rub off around an inch off the rock pavement. YG used his fingers while JueYuan used his feet.
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It is the combination of my proofs and not just one individual event that establishes that GJ's power is not above the YG/GWM.
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Regarding the IronArmor:
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Babelfish: That two Wan Fuchang although is in the Mongolian armed force the famous warrior, how but endures the Guo Jing supernatural power? The arm ËáÂé, two handles iron gun lets go immediately. The Guo peace is inferior to reverse the spear head, takes advantage of a situation to send to, ding-dong two, two handles iron gun rifle stock hits in two person of chests, two Wan Fuchang [generals] all threw over the chest protector iron armor, the rifle [spear] stock [hilt] could not puncture into the body, but peace [GJ] endogenic force [inner power] as soon as shook for Guo, stands ʱ¿ñ [the two generals] spurts the blood, poured hits discontinues. (Aside: GJ cannot puncture the iron armor of the generals using the hilt/stock of the spear)
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BabylonTranslation:
Ìú :
(adj.) indisputable
(n.) arms, weapons, hard iron, strong iron, iron
(v.) resolve, determine
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¼× :
(n.) first
(n.) armor, armor
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Ìú¼× :
mail, armour, armor
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Well, since Moins a translator, I'll go with his translation. However, the armor has to be very hard. Or if you want the description of the armor for YG, there is an upper passage:

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The Yang [YG] left arm as soon as has wielded, a lance flies shoots, pierces hundred husbands' long iron armor, passes [pierces] through the chest. He conveniently received a lance from Ò®ÂÉ the uneven hand, threw dies the second hundred husband to be long. Mongolia kisses soldier ¾ªÂÒ, Yang Guoyi suddenly. The audiences kiss the soldier in great surprise, very the knife lift the halberd, goes forward in abundance ½ØÀ¹. A Yang spear person [YG], when stands executes. His [YG] left arm marvelous ability [Shen Gong] is practices from the mountain torrent sea tide, this lance [spear] flies throws the potential, then is the rock also can insert, much less average man flesh and blood? [B] His each lance [spear] all was aims at general which went against ¿ø passes through the [iron] armor to send out, has shot 17 lances in a little while, has killed 17 Mongolian brave generals. (Aside: Note, YG's shoulder has already been injured by GWM prior this event. )

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Moin: 1) While it is true that in that passage you posted about GJ's use of the blunt end of a spear it never said outright that the 2 men were dead, for all practical purpose they were. In Chinese literature (namely Heroes of the Water Margins), there's a tradition of not stating outright when a man is killed in battles. When it states that those men "were chopped/hacked off their mounts", it means that they are dead. Secondly, the passage right after the one you quoted is thus:

--- Then why for YG's case JY specifically mentions death for the generals?
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Moin: Obvious, not only did GJ kill those 2 men (which he did with only the force of his blow and not the sharpness of the spear, unlike YG). The force of his blow was enough to smash the man skull despite being tempered by his helmet.

--- Recall the theory behind woodenSword? InnerPower is transferred from the pole to the helmet. Now recall YG throwing GX's bracelet against NiMoXing's stick and embeds it upon the stick and threw NiMoXing against the wall. In GJ's case, the helmet should of "dented" or made an imprint from the blunt end of the spear and killed the generals outright (since they are nowhere near the capabilities of NiMoXing).
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Moin: 2) Never did it say anywhere in the book that the armour was made of iron, or traditional plate armour the way we think of it. Iron armour are ridiculously heavy and worn only by specialized European knights during the Middle Ages. Even the best, heaviest, most indestructible plate armour have weak spots around the joints. The passages never stated where GJ or YG hit the men, but if YG had been aiming for the spots of weakness around their necks or armpits, it'd be too terrible of a feat to have defeated them with a sharp point.

--- It specifically says "piercing" the armor and JY mentions this in conjunction with YG piercing "rocks". Read the highlights of the chinese passage above.
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COMPLAINT: I should've posted this after the school year. <sign> Cannot handle everyone at once.

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by Anonymous
It is the combination of my proofs and not just one individual event that establishes that GJ's power is not above the YG/GWM.
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Regarding the IronArmor:
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Babelfish: That two Wan Fuchang although is in the Mongolian armed force the famous warrior, how but endures the Guo Jing supernatural power? The arm ËáÂé, two handles iron gun lets go immediately. The Guo peace is inferior to reverse the spear head, takes advantage of a situation to send to, ding-dong two, two handles iron gun rifle stock hits in two person of chests, two Wan Fuchang [generals] all threw over the chest protector iron armor, the rifle [spear] stock [hilt] could not puncture into the body, but peace [GJ] endogenic force [inner power] as soon as shook for Guo, stands ʱ¿ñ [the two generals] spurts the blood, poured hits discontinues. (Aside: GJ cannot puncture the iron armor of the generals using the hilt/stock of the spear)
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BabylonTranslation:
Ìú :
(adj.) indisputable
(n.) arms, weapons, hard iron, strong iron, iron
(v.) resolve, determine
.
¼× :
(n.) first
(n.) armor, armor
.
Ìú¼× :
mail, armour, armor

Sorry, you were stressing the iron armour of the men that YG struck down that I did not look over at the passage describing the men GJ killed. It's true that it specifically said here that GJ hit the iron plate on those men's armour. You are right in this regard. But it still did not say so in the passage regarding YG.

Also, it never said that GJ's blow did not penetrate the armour. It merely said that the blunt end of the spear that GJ used could not penetrate their bodies. (Nitpick I know, but still a point to make). It could very well be that GJ's blow penetrated the Iron plate but could not penetrate the chest of the generals. So it may not be that "GJ cannot" but his choice of weapons cannot.

Well, since Moins a translator, I'll go with his translation. However, the armor has to be very hard. Or if you want the description of the armor for YG, there is an upper passage:

Not necessarily, remember HR's Soft Armour? All armour should do is to be more difficult for sharp points and edges to penetrate than human skin (anything more is bonus). And the description you posted above is regarding the armour worn by the men GJ killed, not the men that YG killed. The passage about YG only said that those men were wearing armour. But it's not unreasonable to assume that all the Mongolians weren't wearing the same type of iron armour.

In the passage before the little bit you posted, JY did state that a spear that YG tossed penetrated a Mongolian's iron armor through the chest and killed him (he then proceeded to grab his spear and threw at the next Mongolian).

--- Then why for YG's case JY specifically mentions death for the generals?

Because it was a simple summary statement that he killed 17 men. If JY was giving a blow-by-blow description of his moves against each of the 17 generals, then JY might have opted for the same description he gave for GJ. In similiar fashion, had had JY not been giving a blow-by-blow description of GJ's fight, about the only way he could have summarized it is "and GJ killed those 2 men". Besides, in the very next sentence, JY outright stated that those men that GJ hit died.

--- Recall the theory behind woodenSword? InnerPower is transferred from the pole to the helmet. Now recall YG throwing GX's bracelet against NiMoXing's stick and embeds it upon the stick and threw NiMoXing against the wall. In GJ's case, the helmet should of "dented" or made an imprint from the blunt end of the spear and killed the generals outright (since they are nowhere near the capabilities of NiMoXing).

GJ smashed the skull underneath the helmet to bits, it's probably safe to assume he did dent the helmet. If he didn't it'd be even more amazing, considering that he's able to transfer all of the power of his strike through a 2nd medium (the stick being the first) and smashing a 3rd.

--- It specifically says "piercing" the armor and JY mentions this in conjunction with YG piercing "rocks". Read the highlights of the chinese passage above

Incorrect again, the phrase was a rhetorical reference to how YG's strike can penetrate "human flesh and blood". Even your translation pointed out: "then is the rock also can insert, much less average man flesh and blood?" Basically, JY was saying YG's power is so that it could penetrate rocks, so is there ever a doubt about it penetrating human flesh and bones? A rather redundant statement from JY actually.

Also consider how different the 2 men were fighting. YG was throwing whole entire spears (basically putting so much force into the weapons that it flies out of his hand) while GJ was hitting the men with it while still retaining control, meaning he couldn't use so much force that he loses control of the stick in his hand. If a man is able to kill another through iron plate with the blunt end of his spear from the sheer force of his blow, it's probably not far fetched that he could penetrate that armour with the sharp end.

COMPLAINT: I should've posted this after the school year. <sign> Cannot handle everyone at once.

I'm not debating with you as regards to who comes out stronger in these 2 passages. (Although if you think about it, GJ killed 2 men by directly hitting the iron plates on their body with a blunt object while YG used 17 spear to kill 17 men. I mean, it would take alot more effort for me to kill you with the handle of a sword than the blade of the sword. )

What I am pointing out is that you are making certain assumptions you should not make, like GJ didn't kill those men when he actually did; or that JY was talking about armour when he brought up the rock incident.

[superboy]

I agree what Moinllieon said. JY wasn't explicit
And also, we have to know that the hilt and the head of a spear/lance are different. If the head of the spears are 20 times sharper, then GJ would need to use 20 times the force of YG to do the same thing with the blunt hilt, and that is just crazy.

[philip]

Fine, if you don't think it is offending, then "duh". you need proofs instead of just saying ZBT tshould have this and that with with 9 Yin. He felt embarrassed that he used 9 Yin technique on Yg. So this tell us that he do not use it in a regular basis. And with a martial artist like ZBT, he would know it if he accidentally added 9 Yin methods on his QZ cultivation.

yea...and you'd think he'd know if he was practicing 9 yin too...but apprently...it was too late when he found out he did

ps...if you feel offended in any way, i'm honesetly very sorry. hey no hard feelings, aite dude?

[superboy]

Originally posted by philip
yea...and you'd think he'd know if he was practicing 9 yin too...but apprently...it was too late when he found out he did

ps...if you feel offended in any way, i'm honesetly very sorry. hey no hard feelings, aite dude?

Apologies accepted .
Okay, my point is that we know that he unconciously learned most of 9 Yin other than the untranslated portion, which is the decisive point. And ZBT didn't realized that he learnd it, and it was too late by the time he found out. But, in order to benefit from a cultivation, you would need to apply theories and methods such as how you cirrculate your chi etc. So I do not think ZBT would be unconciously using 9 Yin in his QZ cultivation. Cause he obviously is very familiar with QZ cultivation. We can say that he "learnd" the cultivation, but he never "used" it. I don't believe it is possible for ZBT to don't know if he alter QZ cultivation. The only way he can apply 9 Yin to it is only if he's being deliberate.

[Anonymous]

Regarding a passage Moin quoted and Anon did not:

Moin: ÄÇǧ·òéLÉõÊǺ·Ó©oëmҊͬ°éÈýȈÊÃü©oÈÔÊÇͦì�í´Ì©o ¹ù¾¸™Mß^×ó ÊÖèF˜Œ¸ôé_ËûÉßì©oÓÒÊÖèF˜ŒÅéµÄһ•©oÖØÖØ“ôÔÚËûµÄî^ ¿øÖ®ÉÏ©oÖ» ´òµÃËûÄXÉwËéÁÑ¡£
"The Thousand Man Leader was courageous, despite seeing his three fellow officers slain, he still charged up, spear in hand. Guo Jing used his left arm to parry away his spear and, with the spear in his right hand, slam down onto his helmet, smashing it to bits."

Moin: Obvious, not only did GJ kill those 2 men (which he did with only the force of his blow and not the sharpness of the spear, unlike YG). The force of his blow was enough to smash the man skull despite being tempered by his helmet.

Moin: GJ smashed the skull underneath the helmet to bits, it's probably safe to assume he did dent the helmet. If he didn't it'd be even more amazing, considering that he's able to transfer all of the power of his strike through a 2nd medium (the stick being the first) and smashing a 3rd.

--- You (Moin) slipped a passage [which I didnt quote] into the argument previously I didnt catch, I answered thinking it was the spear-throwing passage of GJ I quoted and replied incorrectly. So, my argument is that GJ can can smash the helmet with his HL18Z or YG or GWM for that matter: it's hands-on combat and not distance combat which is requires transferring innerPower into the object (ala FlickingFingers), which is why I didnt quote this passage. I want to stress the distance part as "profound" thing that YG could do. Frankly, we know what GJ is more profound than YG. Still, it's a good passage for GJ fans.
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Moin: Incorrect again, the phrase was a rhetorical reference to how YG's strike can penetrate "human flesh and blood". It never stated anything about piercing armour (although it's probably safe to assume that YG did indeed penetrate the armours of the men, nevertheless, it never specifically said so). Even your translation pointed out: "then is the rock also can insert, much less average man flesh and blood?" Basically, JY was saying YG's power is so that it could penetrate rocks, so is there ever a doubt about it penetrating human flesh and bones? A rather redundant statement from JY actually.

--- I'll use your own argument to answer this. "Also, it never said that GJ's blow did not penetrate the armour. It merely said that the blunt end of the spear that GJ used could not penetrate their bodies. (Nitpick I know, but still a point to make). It could very well be that GJ's blow penetrated the Iron plate but could not penetrate the chest of the generals."
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--- The flesh and blood could pertain to penetrating the armor, which is explicitly stated, AND then also penetrating the "bodies," which is hinted from your own argument. And I've quoted that YG "did" penetrate the IronPlate and "through the chest" (the place the IronArmor is located), here's the quote:

Ñî¹ý×ó±ÛÒ»»Ó£¬Ò»Ö¦³¤Ã¬·ÉÖÀ³öÈ¥£¬¶´´©Ò»Ãû°Ù·ò³¤µÄÌú ¼×£¬¹áÐضø¹ý¡£Ëû˳ÊÖ´ÓÒ®ÂÉÆëÊÖÖнӹýÒ»Ö¦³¤Ã¬£¬ÖÀËÀ Á˵ڶþÃû°Ù·ò³¤¡£ÃɹÅÇ×±øÒ»Õó¾ªÂÒ£¬Ñî¹ýÒÑÍ»Õó¶ø¹ý¡£ ÖÚÇ×±ø´ó¾ª£¬Í¦µ¶¾Ùꪣ¬·×·×ÉÏÇ°½ØÀ¹¡£
ch39: The Yang [YG] left arm as soon as has wielded, a lance [spear] flies shoots, pierces hundred husbands' long [somebody] iron armor, passes through the chest. He conveniently received a lance from Ò®ÂÉ the uneven hand, threw dies the second hundred husband to be long.

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Moin: Also, it never said that GJ's blow did not penetrate the armour. It merely said that the blunt end of the spear that GJ used could not penetrate their bodies. (Nitpick I know, but still a point to make). It could very well be that GJ's blow penetrated the Iron plate but could not penetrate the chest of the generals. So it may not be that "GJ cannot" but his choice of weapons cannot.

--- Yeah, your nitpick is within reason and frankly "accurate". I somehow confused GJ with YG when I made the aside and without reading the passage I quoted: another reason why people should vigilantly read what I quoted with what I said. [It's the quotes that counts.]
--- Still, this sets what GJ can do as MAXIMUM still. Recall I still have "backup" proofs, especially the one where YG embedded GX's bracelet into Ni Mo Xing's "iron stick" -- the best proof that Superboy's theory is wrong. Will post details next time.
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Moin: I'm not debating with you as regards to who comes out stronger in these 2 passages.

--- Nah, I was referring to Superboy and you ganging up on me, so need to reply more. Counterarguments take more time (especially when countering 2 people) then edit/search/cut/paste quotes with little comments.
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ASIDE: Thx Moin for pointing out mistakes I made. And my reading of ROCH using Babelfish is just guesses (which I dont make often) when it comes to details. Well, I hope everyone can "nitpick" my stuff more (within reason ) , cuz that's the reason for arguments (facets and stuff) and hopefully agree on details, like this one.

[superboy]

--- Still, this sets what GJ can do as MAXIMUM still. Recall I still have "backup" proofs, especially the one where YG embedded GX's bracelet into Ni Mo Xing's "iron stick" -- the best proof that Superboy's theory is wrong. Will post details next time.

What theory? I'd said we can't compare it like this because GJ was using the blunt hilt. Is there anything wrong with that statement? And I think it was a hair pin, not bracelet. That's pretty sharp right?

[philip]

Originally posted by superboy
Apologies accepted .
Okay, my point is that we know that he unconciously learned most of 9 Yin other than the untranslated portion, which is the decisive point. And ZBT didn't realized that he learnd it, and it was too late by the time he found out. But, in order to benefit from a cultivation, you would need to apply theories and methods such as how you cirrculate your chi etc. So I do not think ZBT would be unconciously using 9 Yin in his QZ cultivation. Cause he obviously is very familiar with QZ cultivation. We can say that he "learnd" the cultivation, but he never "used" it. I don't believe it is possible for ZBT to don't know if he alter QZ cultivation. The only way he can apply 9 Yin to it is only if he's being deliberate.

So we agree that ZBT "unintentionally" practiced all (or basically all) the parts of 9 yin except for the untranlated part, rite? However, it doesn't mean that the whole majority of the first volume is nonsencse, rite? I mean, i'm sure HS wasn't THAT bored to just write junk in chinese to fill the first volume.
So...we know ZBT did most likely "unconsciously" practice or at least incorporated 9 yin into his own training.
Then, if he unconsciously practiced the 9 yin skills...how do you expect him to "consciously" not practice them?
And also, if ZBT gets theories out of 9 yin but doesn't follow the exact 9 yin method of training....he won't be practicing 9 yin, would he? He simply suddenly improved his martial arts understanding. I mean, GJ didn't only benefit from 9 yin method, but also from it's theories, rite?

[philip]

Originally posted by superboy
What theory? I'd said we can't compare it like this because GJ was using the blunt hilt. Is there anything wrong with that statement? And I think it was a hair pin, not bracelet. That's pretty sharp right?

i think he's pointing to your theory that GJ would have about some 40% more power than the Greats and YG