The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[PJ]

You're right Athena, I believe that is what Jin Yong *meant*, but his writing doesn't clearly reflect that. So I think you are just fixing his problem for him.

What I mean by "writing doesn't clearly reflect" is this: right after it says 但说到功力修为，自比他二人深厚得多, the next statement in the same passage is 一股大力冲过来. IMO this strongly suggests that it was Li Mochou's raw force that cleared Xiao Longnu's acupoint.

But I do in fact believe that Jin Yong meant Li Mochou's more profound grasp of internal cultivation is what helped clear the acupoint. I just don't think Jin Yong's description communicates that well.

[Ren Ying Ying]

perhaps one should imagine the senerio: what would happen if LMC weilded the giant iron sword. how would she compare to JLFW?

[Athena]

You're right Athena, I believe that is what Jin Yong *meant*, but his writing doesn't clearly reflect that. So I think you are just fixing his problem for him.

What I mean by "writing doesn't clearly reflect" is this: right after it says 但说到功力修为，自比他二人深厚得多, the next statement in the same passage is 一股大力冲过来. IMO this strongly suggests that it was Li Mochou's raw force that cleared Xiao Longnu's acupoint.

But I do in fact believe that Jin Yong meant Li Mochou's more profound grasp of internal cultivation is what helped clear the acupoint. I just don't think Jin Yong's description communicates that well.

[小龍女驀地里得了一個強助，只覺一股大力沖過來，“膻中穴”豁然而通] doesn't that refer back to this [當年她以赤練神掌殺得陸家庄雞犬不留之時，掌力已极為凌厲，經過這些年的修為，更是威猛悍惡。楊過但覺一股 熱气自掌心直逼過來，竟不抗拒，反而加上自己的掌力，一齊傳到了小龍女身上。 ]
I checked the passage earlier, so I believe that strong stream of energy that opens up Xiao Longu's acupoint originates from the combined forces of Yang Guo and Li Mochou, hence it is so strong.

There are plenty of things that never are clear in Jin Yong's novels. Things that I don't ever agree with. I don't just blindly defend the man, who the hell am I? I am not his relative, friend or anything, what do I gain from defending/fixing his problems? And don't get me started on the new edition of DGSD or something like Xie Xun knowing or not knowing Zhou Zhiruo's duplicity in the new HSDS. Every time when I think about those things, I just want to write a letter to Mr Cha and ask him what was he thinking and what kind of proofreaders he was using!

[CC]

I just want to write a letter to Mr Cha and ask him what was he thinking and what kind of proofreaders he was using!

You write that letter and we'll all sign it!

[PJ]

[小龍女驀地里得了一個強助，只覺一股大力沖過來，“膻中穴”豁然而通] doesn't that refer back to this [當年她以赤練神掌殺得陸家庄雞犬不留之時，掌力已极為凌厲，經過這些年的修為，更是威猛悍惡。楊過但覺一股 熱气自掌心直逼過來，竟不抗拒，反而加上自己的掌力，一齊傳到了小龍女身上。 ]
I checked the passage earlier, so I believe that strong stream of energy that opens up Xiao Longu's acupoint originates from the combined forces of Yang Guo and Li Mochou, hence it is so strong.

Yeah, it was the combined forces of Yang and Li... but we know that Li's internal strength is very insignificant compared to Yang -- at least, that's what we've been led to believe from the previous evidence of Yang Guo being able to defeat the Mongolian mercenaries each in one stance. The way Jin Yong wrote this passage, he seemed to suggest that Yang Guo's energy was insignificant compared to Li Mochou, then when Li Mochou joined forces, the combined energy suddenly increased several times in magnitude or something. In reality, I think we both agree the magic was sparked not by Li Mochou's abundance but by her more "effective" internal power.

There are plenty of things that never are clear in Jin Yong's novels. Things that I don't ever agree with. I don't just blindly defend the man, who the hell am I? I am not his relative, friend or anything, what do I gain from defending/fixing his problems? And don't get me started on the new edition of DGSD or something like Xie Xun knowing or not knowing Zhou Zhiruo's duplicity in the new HSDS. Every time when I think about those things, I just want to write a letter to Mr Cha and ask him what was he thinking and what kind of proofreaders he was using!

Well I've never seen you disprove of anything of Jin Yong.
For the past 5 years, I've only seen you defend the man every time.

[Wu Wudi]

Come to think of it, that never made a lick of sense either. Gwok Jing, at the time, had (at best) 70% of North Beggar Hung 7 Gung's internal energy. That being the case, how could he have met a full-powered strike from Hung 7 Gung head on? The math just doesn't work out. Hung 7 Gung must have retracted at least some of the power, otherwise Gwok Jing would have been knocked down or injured (or both).

H7G had not too long ago been in a prologned fight with OYF which meant he most likely wasn't at 100%. GJ had been fighting Eastern Heretic too but GJ's age allows him to recover quicker. Also, GJ through 9yin and his trainings with ZBT picked up a lot of soft techniques which he might have applied subconsciously.

[Athena]

Well I've never seen you disprove of anything of Jin Yong.
For the past 5 years, I've only seen you defend the man every time.

There have been times where I criticised the man. But the fact is that I don't use words phrases like brain farts and so on.
I gently resent the accusation that I only blindly defend the man's works. Again what would I gain from that? I am not related to that man at all.

The fact that after the revision of DOMD, he still leaves a typo like calling the abbot of Shaolin Huiming is quite embarrassing. Huiming was Wei Xiaobao's Buddhist name.
Or where the fact that one line in his new BXJ was so vague that it feels like that Shan Tiesheng's body had to be disposed two times by Yuan and co.
Or why Yuanzhen could use Imaginary Yin finger to fatally injure Madame Shi, even though his Imaginary Yin energy should have been nullified.
How many Shaolin skills Jiumozhi actually knows?
Is Madame Murong dead or not?
Yang Xiao's age is also unclear.
etc. etc. etc.

If I want to nitpick a la you, you might have just opened Pandora's box (or in this case Athena's box). But creating new threads about all the mistakes I found will probably have to wait, I have to prepare for an important event in about two weeks.

[PJ]

There have been times where I criticised the man. But the fact is that I don't use words phrases like brain farts and so on.
I gently resent the accusation that I only blindly defend the man's works. Again what would I gain from that? I am not related to that man at all.

If I want to nitpick a la you, you might have just opened Pandora's box (or in this case Athena's box). But creating new threads about all the mistakes I found will probably have to wait, I have to prepare for an important event in about two weeks.

Not saying you blindly defend him... but since you mentioned it: yes, I would like to see a list of goofs in the Jin Yong universe discovered by Athena.

[World Peace]

It's widely accepted that Yang Guo is a bit more powerful than Guo Jing in the realm of martial arts. But who is more masculine/manlier between the two?
With my shallow understanding of wuxia, I give it to Guo Jing because while healing his injuries with Huang Rong in the secret room the guy had an instant sexual arousal after he saw the Lu surnamed guy and the Cheng surnamed female taoist flirt with each other, moreover Guo Jing has 3 children, whereas Yang Guo acted like he was a homo big time though the girl of his dream was practicing seductive martial arts moves right in front of him in bare skin.

[Ken Cheng]

I'm going to move this to the overall Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor (official) thread. We take on more or less all aspects of comparing the two there (because otherwise, it'd spread like a Black Plague epidemic).

Hang on...

[PJ]

It's widely accepted that Yang Guo is a bit more powerful than Guo Jing in the realm of martial arts.

Yes, but it's generally accepted that Yang Guo is slightly inferior to GREAT YIN YANG PALM Yue Hou when it comes to palm ferocity. Yue Hou conceived a perfect harmony of yin and yang within his martial arts system, and therefore is able to produce more unpredictable and more magnetizing streams of energy than Yang Guo's Sad Palms.

[CC]

It's widely accepted that Yang Guo is a bit more powerful than Guo Jing in the realm of martial arts.

It is also WIDELY ACCEPTED that Yang Guo's swordplay is inferior to SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan from DGSD as Yang Guo's sword positioning and accuracy was never described as having reached the 'peak of perfection.'

[gjong]

the fact that YG was able to defeat a high end great level fighter GWM should prove that he might be better than the rest. I doubt even GJ himself could have defeated GWM...

well between GWM and GJ is hard to distinguish who is better fighter. In terms of strength, GWM have the upper hand and GJ on the other hand had more proficient martial arts skills.However other factors need to be accounted for GJ has the spirit of the warrior tat GWM could have never dreamed of and this can be shown when he single handedly taking GWM and the rest of the Mongolian warriors. The time when YG defeated GWM was at the end of ROCH. Tat time we are not told much about the GJ and he has not even involve in any fight with any of the warriors so to say YG is better than GJ would be quite unfair as there is uncertainty. I would suggest both of these heroes are roughly the same although to certain extent I do agree like QF Yang Guo is meant more for martial arts with his intelligence as for GJ I think he is more of a general kind defending the city with never afraid spirit

[flyingfox2002]

Wow this thread is still active. I remember seeing this when I was like 8 years old back in 1986 but anyway...

GJ and GWM was about even steven when GJ and YG were in the Mongol camp. GWM and the others did not defeat GJ more readily because they got in each other's way trying to be the one and only to maim/kill GJ. On the other hand, GJ had YG sabotaging him, so I guess it evens out a bit. I would say that were the Mongies more cooperative with each other, they would have defeated GJ if GJ stayed in the fight to the end. But it means nothing in terms of GJ vs. YG kungfu-wise.

Who's better in kung fu? GJ or YG? I don't know. And no one knows. It's like comparing baseball hitters across eras. Apples and oranges.

[Ken Cheng]

Who's better in kung fu? GJ or YG? I don't know. And no one knows. It's like comparing baseball hitters across eras.

I'd say it's more like pro basketball players a generation apart: Magic Johnson and Kobe Bryant, for example.

[sarakoth]

But the thing is that GJ and YG were both at their prime at the end of ROCH.

[Ken Cheng]

This has been one of our perennial discussion topics (a classic of SPCNET Wuxia Forum), but it's surprisingly lain fallow for nine months now. Either we've completely exhausted the argument (unlikely), or we've lost interest (also unlikely).

The lack of new discussion in this thread these past months, as well as its length, suggests the impasse of this issue. That in of itself is very compelling support for the notion that at the end of ROCH, Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor were likely fighters of equal prowess.

[Ghaleon]

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vs

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[person135]

so why GJ and why YG?

[now8fire]

guo jing would most likely win, he has a more diverse set up of skills which i think gives him the upper hand