The martial arts level of various ROCH characters

[Ken Cheng]

A few questions about the martial arts level of various (non-Greats) ROCH characters, and one about Yeung Gor's martial arts from the middle of ROCH.

First, Fung Mak Fung -- the student of East Heretic Wong Yerk See. When he first appeared in ROCH, he had a confrontation with Lee Mok Sau. Fung barely won that fight, and only by the virtue that his weapon (a superheated walking stick) was better than Lee Mok Sau's duster. Later in ROCH, however, Fung Mak Fung gave his life to rescue Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor from the Golden Wheel Monk, Siu Seung Tze, and Lui Mor Singh. Although the three Mongol mercenaries eventually killed him, Fung put up one hell of a fight...managing to hold the three mercenaries at bay until Yeung Gor could get Gwok Jing to safety. How did he do it? If Fung Mak Fung was slightly better than Lee Mok Sau, then at best, he was probably at the same level as either Siu Seung Tze or Lui Mor Singh individually. The Golden Wheel Monk was a Greats-level fighter; he should have trounced Fung easily all by himself. For about a minute, however, Fung held all three mercenaries off almost as well as Gwok Jing did. How could he have done that?

The Mo Brothers: They had a duel against each other that didn't prove anything. Were the two brothers really evenly matched, or did one have an edge over the other?

Yeung Gor: how good were his martial arts skills at the time of Gwok Jing's fight against the Mongol mercenaries? How did Yeung Gor stack up against Wan Hak Sai, Siu Seung Tze, and Lui Mor Singh at that point?

[Ren Wo Xing]

I think you are mistaken. FMF didn't win that fight with LMC; in fact, it was Yang Guo who had to scare her off in the end by telling her how HYS could 'defeat' her Five Poison Palms with his Tanzhi Shentong (after HYS had taught him some), and her flywhisk technique with the Jade Flute Technique. FMF was said to have comparable internal energy to LMC, but lacked fighting experience. He fought well, but was being trounced. The only reason it wasn't an actual defeat was the poor girl's clothing got burned off, so she was too embarassed to continue

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Ren Wo Xing
I think you are mistaken. FMF didn't win that fight with LMC; in fact, it was Yang Guo who had to scare her off in the end by telling her how HYS could 'defeat' her Five Poison Palms with his Tanzhi Shentong (after HYS had taught him some), and her flywhisk technique with the Jade Flute Technique. FMF was said to have comparable internal energy to LMC, but lacked fighting experience. He fought well, but was being trounced. The only reason it wasn't an actual defeat was the poor girl's clothing got burned off, so she was too embarassed to continue

OK . . . but that doesn't explain why he suddenly became Superman when he saved Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor from the Golden Wheel Monk, et. al.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by -NSX-
Perhaps he went all out on them.

He certainly did, but the power discrepancy between Fung Mak Fung and his three enemies was so great that it probably would not have mattered how determined he was. I could be the most determined guy in the world, but if I were to try to take on Bruce Lee, Mike Tyson, and a Delta Force agent in a fight, I'd *still* get punked.

Those three guys had just beaten the tar out of Gwok Jing; Fung Mak Fung should have been killed in seconds.

[superboy]

But then, it could be possible that if you try your max like a charging bull to fight 3 Bruce Lee with the intention to save someone very important to you, then you might be able to make a good distraction.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by -NSX-
They had no juice left after fighting GJ, that's why FMF was able to fend them off for a period longer.

That might be it. The mercenaries wounded Gwok Jing, but he had softened them up quite a bit during the struggle too. The Golden Wheel Monk didn't sustain any significant injuries, but Lui Mor Singh had his ribs broken by Gwok Jing, and I think Siu Seung Tze was a bit dinged up too.

[kamii]

Couldn't GJ and YG beat the 3 mongols together?

[SkineePanda]

FMF was no match for anyone one of the mercenaries. He cut a swath through the mongols soldiers. He clashed weapons with Jinlun Fawang but felt like his joints were being crushed. So he let go and just tackled him. He basically held on to him despite getting beaten to death by Jinlun. Not much of a fight 'technique-wise'. But he is tough.

YG: at various moments he demonstrated ingenious swordplay that held them back. Also he was in psycho mode and only cared of getting GJ to safety. But he eventually get slashed on the arm. In a semi-concious state, he kept fighting(with help by XiaoXiang Zi's poison stick) but accidently poked a unconcious GJ on a horse. GJ woke up and lift YG on his horse and they escaped. Plus the three Mongol fighter were constantly fighting and obstructing each other to take GJ's life, so it made things easier.

Wu borthers: they sucked so far in Noodles's novel translations

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by kamii
Couldn't GJ and YG beat the 3 mongols together?

Maybe, but I doubt it. Gwok Jing and the Golden Wheel Monk were close to evenly matched, although Gwok Jing might have had a slight edge. Yeung Gor, however, could not have taken on Siu Seung Tze and Lui Mor Singh together at that point of his development. I'm not sure he was a match for either one of them yet. In any case, Yeung Gor was confused about whether he wanted to kill Gwok Jing or save him at the time. By the time Yeung Gor decided that he would save Gwok Jing (at least so he could kill him personally), Gwok Jing was already wounded.

[charbydis]

In FMF's case, there is always that shock factor:
- he doesn't look as good as he really is and his enemies
probably underestimated him
- are you going to be stunned if someone disabled suddenly
rushes out at you and puts up a hell of a good fight?

[superboy]

But actually, it does seems kind of strange. FMF was at best close to the level of LMC, and GLFW is around the level of HYS. At the start of ROCH, HYS beated LMC like he was playing around with a 3 year old. FMF should have been likely killed withing a few stances of GLFW.

[kamii]

Would FMF have been much stronger if he had not been disabled or would he just be another second rate fighter?

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by kamii
Would FMF have been much stronger if he had not been disabled or would he just be another second rate fighter?

It's hard to say because *all* of East Heretic Wong Yerk See's students except for Ching Ying ended up with some kind of disability (paralyzed legs or blindness). Still, Wong Yerk See's students all ended up in that second tier of fighter right after the Greats (albeit still inferior to the Greats by a large margin). Who knows how they would have developed if they had all been completely sound and had spent the subsequent decades continuing their training under Wong Yerk See?

[kamii]

After WYS "cripple" them all could some of them hav gone to them legendary fairy doctors? I mean its just a broken leg.....easily fixed with a few herbs that they could hav plucked out of the mountains.

[rabadi]

Originally posted by kamii
...legendary fairy doctors?

Who were the legendary fairy doctors? I do not remember there were any excellent doctors in LOCH, except maybe that Indian Monk.

[sixdays]

by the middle of ROCH, are you referring the point when YG is poisoned, yet has two arms? i'm guessing so...


it's quite easy to see YG's level at that point, if you look at his performance in passionless valley.

there, it was stated many times that YG was superior to the other mongolian warriors (except GWM) in terms of technique...however, his internal energy is much lower since he is only 20 or so. we see that YG can defeat GongSun Zhi using his techniques, and GongSun Zhi is roughly to the level of the other 3 mercenaries other than GWM. therefore, i think by virtue of skill YG can defeat anyone except for the Greats at this point --- as you put when describing HYS's students, YG is the TOP of that "second tier" at this point. i think in the middle of ROCH, YG could definitely beat LMC and he would put up a good fight against the QZ 7 masters, though it would be a close win for someone like Ma Yu or QQJ.

---

as for Fung Mo Fung (Feng Mo Feng, for you mandarin speakers), i believe the best reason for him lasting that long was because he was DEFENDING. we notice in JY books a certain phenomenon, that one becomes suddenly more powerful if you switch to defense mode. i think FMF was able to hold them off for a while because he was not looking to attack. we can see in GJ that he would be able to hold off the 4 warriors for hours before succumbing --- it's not that farfetched that FMF can hold them off for 5 minutes, seeing as FMF isn't COMPLETELY horrible at kungfu.

[kamii]

Well the doctors didn't hav to be fairy doctors, they could hav been just normal doctors.....they did hav the knowledge to heal broken arms and legs did they not?

[rabadi]

Originally posted by kamii
Well the doctors didn't hav to be fairy doctors, they could hav been just normal doctors.....they did hav the knowledge to heal broken arms and legs did they not?

Not too sure. I mean, we are talking about wuxia fantasy here, not the current day technology. Back then, I do not think there was a good enough doctor in LOCH/ROCH era that could heal broken bones (if I'm wrong, please correct me). Even in HSDS when ZWJ finished learning from the best doctor around, he still needed medicine from ZM to heal his two uncles.

[CC]

It wasn't just a break in the bones. HYS broke their tendons.

[Ken Cheng]

Probably complete nerve damage. Bone tissue can regenerate. Tendon tissue can also regenerate. Nerve tissue, however, cannot regenerate once destroyed.