Do you think it's internal energy or martial arts?

[superboy]

Do you think that JY was comparing them in terms of martial arts, or does it seems like internal energy?

Borrowing noodle's translation:

Fa Wang’s martial arts and Guo Jing’s martial arts were separated by the smallest of margins, Guo Jing may have had more fortunate encounters than Fa Wang but Fa Wang was twenty years older than him; he had twenty years worth of internal energy more than Guo Jing. If the two fought one on one, they would have to exchange over a thousand stances to decide who was better. With first-rate fighters such as Ni Mo Xing and Xiao Xiang Zi by his side, it wouldn’t have been difficult to gain victory over Guo Jing but Guo Jing’s [Eighteen Dragon Subduing Palms] were too powerful and along with his palm technique, he was using Quan Zhen’s [Big Dipper Formation], he went to and fro as he fought and it was like as if he had separated into seven. Another reason why he was still holding them off was because of his immediate victory over Yin Ke Xi; this was a warning to the others and the remaining three made defence their main priority and did not dare to make a rash attack so although it was three against one, Guo Jing held his own against the three.

Basically my interpretation is that GJ has luckier encounters than GLFW with 9 Yin's cultivation, but GLFW has 20 years more worth of energy compare to GJ so he compensated for it.

Do you think Jin Yong was saying GLFW is 20 years older than GJ and have twenty years more training in martial arts, so although GJ has luckier encounters, GLFW was still able to be an equal?

Does it sound more likely to you that the "luckier" was refering to cultivation, or martial arts training, or martial arts+training?

[duguxiaojing]

I read what philip posted not too sure.... if the word is gong lik? Isnt that Martial arts in general?BUT IIRC when YG and GWM collided palms it said that both were surprised by how much each others gong lik had improved and i interpreted that as inner power........but im not sure. Noi Gong is inner power. Gong lik is strenth of inner power was what i thought.

I will say that the way Noods writes is not always word for word so there are diffrent ways of interpreting. For ex: in his latest translation i remember it saying HR was wondering if Yg would use this opportunity to save his life. The direct transltion of characters was use this opportunity to get the antidote(therefore saving his life). SO the meaning did not change BUT reading it from a english prespectivce if i had asked you if the paragraph mentioned anything about an antidote you would have said no.

[PJ]

To me, the important thing is the passage points out GJ =~ GWM at that time.

[superboy]

But whether the passage's "luckier" was refering to cultivation, or techniques could contribute to wheter GJ should be stronger than GLFW or not 16 years later.

[- L1n -]

super don't kill the thread we all know that u have stacks of proof behind ur gj sayings so backoff and let us decide lol. hahhahahahaah but i would say at the time they r equal(with no proof)

[duguxiaojing]

But whether the passage's "luckier" was refering to cultivation, or techniques could contribute to wheter GJ should be stronger than GLFW or not 16 years later.

Not necessarily...lucky does not mean GJ's inner power does not slow down. There is proof that GJ,7G,YG,GWM all slowed down so i believe inner power does slow down eventually after a huge boost. Gj's inner power did slow down. He went from below OYK to slightly below the rest of greats in short period of time 1 year? can anyone confirm this?.Yet 10 years later he is on par with greats. 3 Years later he is still on par. 16 years later it's stated by YG that he's inner power is around Jy and 1deng's level. And later in HSDS JY(jin yong) again places him at around great level. YG obviously slowed down he gained some 20 years of inner power in 3 months? GLFW was 15-20 years younger then other greats. He was=to other greats before 16 years and = to other greats after 16 years. Therefore he's inner power must have slowed down at some point. 7G using the final (is it also the most powerful part of 9yin??????) went from having zip inner power to matching the other greats withing a short period of time(dont know how long can anyone who read LOCH tell me?). Yet 13? years later we see that he is still on par with Gj,GWM,OYF ect... so he must have slowed down as well.

Regarding that line you are talking about SB. I thought about it and i dont think it can soely mean technique. If i dosent mean inner power then its Martial Arts in general(technique+inner power) that GWM had twenty years of training more than GJ. GJ was said to be superior in technique while GWM is superior in physical strenth so that line cannot mean that because GWM trained in technique more for 20 years thats why he can = GJ, since it was stated before that GJ had the upper hand in palm tech.

[superboy]

GJ did slow down a lot from LOCH, over 13 times. So in my opinion, it cannot be the doing of from an energy boost that caused that. It seems more like a bad adjustment to me. GJ's energy at the end of LOCH wasn't really too strong. Many people had his level of energy in other novels or higher. JY commented his energy cannot be compared to OYF at 2nd Mt. Hua Tuurnament, that's why he was hopeless when OYF grabbed on to his hands. Most fighters that had large amount of internal energy like the Greats still improve at similar rates as they did before even after they built a large amount of energy. They improved from LOCH to ROCH significantly. So on my opinion, if the Greats didn't slow down at their level by the end of LOCH, no way GJ will either (especially over 13 times!) if it was due to a natural process. And if the person ever slow in energy not due to slacking off or some mistakes in training, then the left out possibility is a weak foundation, which 9 Yin diffinenty is opposite to that. BAD ADJUSTMENTS!

Regarding to H7G, he only had a portion of 9 Yin. And he did not went from zip to matching a great in LOCH. 9 Yin helped him "recover" by unblocking his acupoints. But the point is, there are even more characters that improve at a linear rate than those that suddenly improve several times less. So what does those characters got to do with making GJ slower? GJ slowed down during the 13 years period, so YG did also during the 16 years is only natural, not something that will say GJ should slow down a second time right? If you keep on slowing down like this, what's going to happen to your martial arts? Lets say HSDS was right after ROCH, and if ZWJ didn't improve as fast as he did after the bag incident, then GJ should go on another slowing down process? I don't see how others slowing down with whatever problems their trainings may have should mean GJ's much more advance 9 Yin should make him slow down also, especially when he already did once. It could be that the torrent training does not have a good foundation; not to mention that his torrent training has a totally different nature smilar to weight training so it seems natural that once you get more used to the force you improve slower.

The theory of due to amount of energy you gained that make you slow down has a flaw. Cuz once two person had the same amount of energy GJ=Greats, then naturally the side that has inferior cultivation will slow down even more, or at least still improve slower even more even though both are under the effect of this process. Also, we never knew if GJ was an equal to OYF's chi at the start of ROCH. They fought to a tie, but OYF was 40 years older. That's a large effect on your energy. I repeat again after posting this a few times, JY commented how OYF healed slower because he's older, and how his and H7G was getting tire during their battle because of their age. And 4 Hero of Wudang though he had an advantage over Eagle King because he's "20 years" younger. And YTZ died in HSDS because he exhausted himself at that age. And Wudang's energy was said to improve faster as you trained it longer, so that get rid of the theory of the process of slowing down.

GLFW did surpassed the Greats at the end of ROCH at least on the field of internal energy. 16 years ago, he does not have the power to force ZBT to back down his fist. And QQR, a very close equal to the Greats, was killed by GLFW within a day. While I believe none of the Greats has the ability to "kill" him. This is also one reason that I believe that GJ should be stronger than the Greats. JY already gave the numbers that GJ 20 years of energy is equal to GLFW's 40, and it's due to GJ being "luckier", not some faster intiation rate like Camel Mountain energy compare to QZ's. By the end of ROCH, JY even remember to make GLFW a bit stronger thant the Greats in the field of internal energy with his whatever LJBYG and probably because he already reached their level of energy when he were 20 years younger. But with his previous hero of LOCH, with 9 Yin, and the comment of the 20:40 ratio to GLFW, he will only make GJ's improvement on only the Great's speed, which is even slower than GLFW's? It just seems a bit awkward if that's true.

[TaiHan]

I think their inner power are about the same. but I would guess that GJ's 9 yin internal cultivation is superior to GWM's internal cultivation which could makeup for the different internal power if they are different.

such as during the battle at the mongolian camp. Xiao Xiang Zi released poison and it aimmed at GJ, yet GJ only feel about to faint. While GWM just sniff abit of the poison already felt he was going to vomit.
also GJ in the 2nd Hua Tournament, he was capable of taking on his masters, H7G, palms at full power. Although H7G just recover from his injury, he should not be that much below the other great(and duguxiaojing that would be about two year to recover his internal energy and not training). GJ also took a palm from QQR.

[superboy]

I think H7G used 80% that time right? Anyway, GJ did have a metal flute to block and H7G's palms were said to be gradually weakening because he just recovered from his injury.

[duguxiaojing]

and duguxiaojing that would be about two year to recover his internal energy and not training

I see thx u.

GJ's energy at the end of LOCH wasn't really too strong.

Seemed pretty high...good enough for him to match greats for 300 stances though. Which no one except possibly QQR could do.

JY commented his energy cannot be compared to OYF at 2nd Mt. Hua Tuurnament, that's why he was hopeless when OYF grabbed on to his hands.

really? even so at the rate he was going he should have far surpassed the greats before ten years if he increased at the rate he was going.

And he did not went from zip to matching a great in LOCH. 9 Yin helped him "recover" by unblocking his acupoints.

I see thx. But he used 9yin inner power to do so right? It was mentioned in roch that his part of the 9yin inner power was superior to the full contrary 9yin method.

So what does those characters got to do with making GJ slower? GJ slowed down during the 13 years period, so YG did also during the 16 years is only natural.

Nothing really i was just pointing out that 9yin and other inner power cultivation does slow down. That's what you were arguing about before right?

It could be that the torrent training does not have a good foundation.

Whats that mean?

Cuz once two person had the same amount of energy GJ=Greats, then naturally the side that has inferior cultivation will slow down even more

Not necessarily.....we dont know how 9yin works. Maybe its similar to YG's inner power training where u get a massive massive boost then a steady incline which is equal to the rate which the other greats inner power is increasing. Like u said before what does one characters increas have to do with
another?

Also, we never knew if GJ was an equal to OYF's chi at the start of ROCH.

I answered you last time as well. That was due to OYF's age. OVerall when they matched palms there inner power and martial arts were equal.

ALSO GJ was stated to be= to GWM. GWM=H7g,OYF. So therefore Gj=OYF which was evident in the fight as well. 1deng's body could not withstand gathering all that chi which is why he started condending steam from his head. Was his inner power inferior to GWM?

GLFW did surpassed the Greats at the end of ROCH at least on the field of internal energy. 16 years ago, he does not have the power to force ZBT to back down his fist.

I thought u said ZBT was significantly greater then the other greats and GWM? But anyways thats debatable. ZBT did not dare take a fist of GWM head on. But all logic points out that he could since he could match YG head on. While YG could match GWM head on with weakened sad palms. There is no proof that GWM's chi is stronger then other greats. He was deadlocked with 1deng,ZBT. I will admit that I THOUGHT ZBT was the stronger fighter pre sixteen years. I think GWM even feared him. I remember one point where ZBT threw a flag at GWM and the force behind it forced GWM backwards. Also GWM does seem more powerful at end. Possibly due to the description of his fighting style. But their is no indication that his inner power is> then greats. The're enounters ended in a draw.

"luckier", not some faster intiation rate like Camel Mountain energy compare to QZ's

Thats one way of looking at it. Wouldnt you say that Its luckier that i have achieved your level of inner power in 35 years less time? And since i can match you despite being a heck of alot younger my cultivation can still be considered superior no?

will only make GJ's improvement on only the Great's speed?

Not necessarily...maybe the greats increased at steady rate. Gj caught up and increase at the same rates as other greats which explains why they are all at the same level of inner power at end.



Again although they were all stated to be at the same level i do belive GJ to be superior. Slightly. Due to like you said age and slight adavantage in technique. I think eventually the younger GJ will wear them out same with YG. But u have to remember that ZBT went all out in fight with YG for sometime and he went straight offense since YG refuesed to attack. ZBT is in his hundreds by the end of ROCH (that what YG believed anyways not sure how old he is can anyone confirm?)and from what i here his older than other greats as well.


I remember when Yg started training after he was healing from poison and left passionless valley he mentioned that it was difficult to increase your martial arts after reaching such a high level.....dunno if he was refering to him self or martial artist in general.

Im not sure why JY made all of them close to a lock at end of novel. Maybe to make all the Gj fans happy YG fans happy HYS fans happy ect.....Also a little bit of controversy never hurt.

KC had a ceiling theory where all characters seemed to level off at a certain point.....but he also said that they were below DGSD characters which i dont like to buy into.

[superboy]

Seemed pretty high...good enough for him to match greats for 300 stances though. Which no one except possibly QQR could do.

The Greats was going easy for the first 200 moves. When HYS used max for his last 100 stances, GJ was having truble and seeing stars afterward. If HYS gone for real at start, I don't hink GJ can last over 150.

really? even so at the rate he was going he should have far surpassed the greats before ten years if he increased at the rate he was going.

That's why I think it's bad adjustment. I'd gave my thoughts why on the previous post. Do you think if they're reasonable reasons?

I see thx. But he used 9yin inner power to do so right? It was mentioned in roch that his part of the 9yin inner power was superior to the full contrary 9yin method.

He only got a small portion. That's why I believe that if H7yG using a portion if it can still let him improve as fast as the others, then the whole thing should do better.

Nothing really i was just pointing out that 9yin and other inner power cultivation does slow down. That's what you were arguing about before right?

What do you think of the reasons that I'd gave you?

Not necessarily...maybe the greats increased at steady rate. Gj caught up and increase at the same rates as other greats which explains why they are all at the same level of inner power at end.



Again although they were all stated to be at the same level i do belive GJ to be superior. Slightly. Due to like you said age and slight adavantage in technique. I think eventually the younger GJ will wear them out same with YG. But u have to remember that ZBT went all out in fight with YG for sometime and he went straight offense since YG refuesed to attack. ZBT is in his hundreds by the end of ROCH (that what YG believed anyways not sure how old he is can anyone confirm?)and from what i here his older than other greats as well.


I remember when Yg started training after he was healing from poison and left passionless valley he mentioned that it was difficult to increase your martial arts after reaching such a high level.....dunno if he was refering to him self or martial artist in general.

Im not sure why JY made all of them close to a lock at end of novel. Maybe to make all the Gj fans happy YG fans happy HYS fans happy ect.....Also a little bit of controversy never hurt.

KC had a ceiling theory where all characters seemed to level off at a certain point.....but he also said that they were below DGSD characters which i dont like to buy into.

I don't think we should use Z3F's comparison, or was it JY's? I don't think the comment on the impressiveness of the Greats, GJ, YG matching ZWJ neccesarily means that they are at the same level. Cuz YG's energy, at least raw power was not. YG commented that martial arts are harder to improve, but I think iit is probably skillwise, cuz it was already said that wudang's energy allow you to improve faster as you train.

Whats that mean?

You know like how QZ's energy was said to have a better foundation than Camel Mountain so it catches up after 10 years. So since torrent training isn't as sophisticated, it could be vey likely to be that.

I answered you last time as well. That was due to OYF's age. OVerall when they matched palms there inner power and martial arts were equal.

ALSO GJ was stated to be= to GWM. GWM=H7g,OYF. So therefore Gj=OYF which was evident in the fight as well. 1deng's body could not withstand gathering all that chi which is why he started condending steam from his head. Was his inner power inferior to GWM?

What do you mean? I meant when GJ matched with OYF, it could be that he didn't have as abundant chi as OYF that time, but his age made up for it, and it wasn't until the feast when he really reacher that stage.

I thought u said ZBT was significantly greater then the other greats and GWM? But anyways thats debatable. ZBT did not dare take a fist of GWM head on. But all logic points out that he could since he could match YG head on. While YG could match GWM head on with weakened sad palms. There is no proof that GWM's chi is stronger then other greats. He was deadlocked with 1deng,ZBT. I will admit that I THOUGHT ZBT was the stronger fighter pre sixteen years. I think GWM even feared him. I remember one point where ZBT threw a flag at GWM and the force behind it forced GWM backwards. Also GWM does seem more powerful at end. Possibly due to the description of his fighting style. But their is no indication that his inner power is> then greats. The're enounters ended in a draw.

Yeah, but his superiority were always technique or skillwise. GLFW thought that he was not a match for ZBT that time before 16 years. ZBT's energy type or something was said to be not as agressve as YG's, that's why he wobbled when he took on YG's palm that time. And it was a comment from JY. If GLFW does not have more energy than the Greats, then YG should not also cuz they are equals on that field.

Thats one way of looking at it. Wouldnt you say that Its luckier that i have achieved your level of inner power in 35 years less time? And since i can match you despite being a heck of alot younger my cultivation can still be considered superior no?

JY explained to us well on QZ's energy comparing to Camel Mountain's. If a QZ fighter lost to a Camel Mountain fighter due to the reason so slower intiation rate, JY would state out the reason, not that the Camel Mountain trainer was luckier. Plus, the only reason that it catches up is because of good foundation, and 9 Yin got the best out there.

Hey Dugu, you cut out a lot with the quotes. Can you actually reply to my previous post?

[duguxiaojing]

The Greats was going easy for the first 200 moves. When HYS used max for his last 100 stances, GJ was having truble and seeing stars afterward. If HYS gone for real at start, I don't hink GJ can last over 150.

Na...i read it a while back a translation from moin i believe when the greats held back they were put in a bad situation and had to use tricks to draw again with GJ. But yeah i dont think Gj would have lasted 300 stances.

That's why I think it's bad adjustment. I'd gave my thoughts why on the previous post. Do you think if they're reasonable reasons?

ummmm...what is your reason again? I think u may have posted that on the GJ and YG thread i read your last post u just mentioned that bad adjsutment thing but did not write why u felt Gj slowed down.

What do you think of the reasons that I'd gave you?

Like i said you mentioned bad adjustment dunno what that is and also that Gj and greats should not have slowed down that much i didnt see your reasoning could u post it?

I don't think we should use Z3F's comparison, or was it JY's? I don't think the comment on the impressiveness of the Greats, GJ, YG matching ZWJ neccesarily means that they are at the same level. Cuz YG's energy, at least raw power was not. YG commented that martial arts are harder to improve, but I think iit is probably skillwise, cuz it was already said that wudang's energy allow you to improve faster as you train.

It was JY's comments and not necessarily on their martial arts. It was on their inner power being on the same level. So desite one being more abundant agressive pure profound ect ect.....they are all realitively the same. Ex: YG and 1deng. 1deng and GWM. Also YG made a comment that JY could find to people who could compete with his inner power in GJ and 1deng.....i think in terms of pure and profoundness???? since that was mentioned about Jy before that statement. Not sure about the wudang thing....Z3f is still great level(in inner power have no idea bout tech) despite being older.

You know like how QZ's energy was said to have a better foundation than Camel Mountain so it catches up after 10 years. So since torrent training isn't as sophisticated, it could be vey likely to be that.

O I C thx.....ummm what about training on south sea...there is no evidence that YG slowed down dramatically although it did not give YG that massive surge in energy that torrrents+gall bladders did.

What do you mean? I meant when GJ matched with OYF, it could be that he didn't have as abundant chi as OYF that time, but his age made up for it, and it wasn't until the feast when he really reacher that stage.

O I C. Ummm ill agree with that. I thought you were trying to say that GJ> then OYF at the time in terms of inner power. Which is why i pointed to the statement that Gj= GWM roughly. And GWM=OYF therefore GJ=OYF roughly in inner power .

Yeah, but his superiority were always technique or skillwise. GLFW thought that he was not a match for ZBT that time before 16 years. ZBT's energy type or something was said to be not as agressve as YG's, that's why he wobbled when he took on YG's palm that time. And it was a comment from JY. If GLFW does not have more energy than the Greats, then YG should not also cuz they are equals on that field.

Na....i think he lacks agressiveness but he's inner power is said to be very deep and prfound (like what they say about 1deng) as with his martial arts. He's palm did not shake all the time when he fought YG. I dunno about GWm's abundance.......though. I dont reacallanything about him being YG= in abundance. But fore sure YG> then 1deng in abundance dunno about other greats+gj and GWM.

Also for somereason GWm had a good idea of ZBT's inner power since he made a comment on it(and 1deng) after HYS shot the pebble into his wheel.


Taking various excerps from novel we can see that they are roughly equal.

1.GWM places 1deng,HYS and ZBT inner power on same level.1deng=HYS=ZBT

2.Its said that the energy from HYS DZST is not inferior to YG's SP. HYS=YG

3.We can see that YG and GWM are roughly equal.YG=GWM

4. From YG's and JY's comments we can also see that Gj=greats roughly in terms of inner power.


So therefore Gj=1deng(GY, Jue Yuen can also be placed here)=ZBT=HYS=YG=GWM

Thats based off what one character says about another and also some comments based off ROCH and one excerp from HSDS. Does that sound legit to you SB? Like i mentioned before we dont know which character has more abundant prodound agressive ecttect...inner power but in alot of battles they are stated to be roughly equal OVERALL. If u wanna find out who has most agressive depp profound inner power and seperate them go for it man...i think there should be enough evidence in novel to find out. Im kinda curious to find out myself.

and 9 Yin got the best out there

Well wouldnt that become a who's a better fighter debate between Dugu and HS? U know who i'd go for?

Hey Dugu, you cut out a lot with the quotes. Can you actually reply to my previous post?

Do u mean in the GJ vs YG thread or your previous post in this thread? What part do u want me to answer? The QQR part? I do not think as highly of QQR as u do. I think any of the greats would be able to kill him. Judging from the way YG was handling GWM with weakedn sad palms he should be able to take out QQR with less trouble. Although there is no direct proof that where QQR stands after 16 years. Pre sixteen years JY said 1deng may have been able to defeat him. And Yg was taking him on pretty well...although he was cheap..i think Yg would have came out on top anyhow.

[superboy]

Na...i read it a while back a translation from moin i believe when the greats held back they were put in a bad situation and had to use tricks to draw again with GJ. But yeah i dont think Gj would have lasted 300 stances.

Yeah, but then Jin Yong also said that experts cannot hold back. Whatever that means. But the thing is that GJ was seeing stars because his chi was not enough. And JY already said that his energy cannot be compare to OYF.

ummmm...what is your reason again? I think u may have posted that on the GJ and YG thread i read your last post u just mentioned that bad adjsutment thing but did not write why u felt Gj slowed down.

The long one that I'd posted in this thread.

O I C thx.....ummm what about training on south sea...there is no evidence that YG slowed down dramatically although it did not give YG that massive surge in energy that torrrents+gall bladders did.

I said this several months ago, but the need to move to the south sea to train proves that there are something different with the torrent training compare to normal ones that only require meditation to accumulate chi. YG would probably increase his chi faster when he just start, and more subtle later on with the South Sea. My theory is that there's a limit to the amount of strength you may have even when you accumulate more chi. So naturally, YG can only hold on the waves for a limited amount of time, which is also his physical limits. So after you get used to it, you don't improve as fast.

Na....i think he lacks agressiveness but he's inner power is said to be very deep and prfound (like what they say about 1deng) as with his martial arts. He's palm did not shake all the time when he fought YG. I dunno about GWm's abundance.......though. I dont reacallanything about him being YG= in abundance. But fore sure YG> then 1deng in abundance dunno about other greats+gj and GWM.

Also for somereason GWm had a good idea of ZBT's inner power since he made a comment on it(and 1deng) after HYS shot the pebble into his wheel.

If the comment on YG's energy being somewhat more abundant than Yi Deng is true, then GLFW should be also. I would think that he practiced the LJBYG throughout his life, but GLFW pre-16 years cannot overpower ZBT, so his energy did in some form, became superior. But I would still say not by that much. I cannot comment on whether it's true or not, cuz other than Yi Deng, I don't think GLFW has any otherstanding of the exact level of energy HYS and ZBT has. YG didn't even know how strong GLFW's energy really is until they got into a deadlock with his wheels and Heavy Sword; even after numerous encounters. So I do have doubts with GLFW's hasty judgements with so least proof.

Taking various excerps from novel we can see that they are roughly equal.

1.GWM places 1deng,HYS and ZBT inner power on same level.1deng=HYS=ZBT

2.Its said that the energy from HYS DZST is not inferior to YG's SP. HYS=YG

3.We can see that YG and GWM are roughly equal.YG=GWM

4. From YG's and JY's comments we can also see that Gj=greats roughly in terms of inner power

1. Not enough proofs like what I mentioned.
2. Yeah, but then they were using the people as mediums, so we are not sure exactly what will happen if they actually has physical contacts.

3. Agree in terms of chi.

4. I mentioned on that thread before that YG's comment isn't dependable. This statement was once used by phillip to prove that GJ is under YG because Yi Deng said he does not have as abundant amount of energy as YG. So in Yi Deng's own opinion, it's Yi Deng< YG. But that cannot be used as proof to YG being stronger than GJ cuz he classed him with Yi Deng. The reason is that YG doe snot know how much energy Yi Deng have. Since Yi Deng proformed a mile speech that impressed YG because it's something that he cannot preform himself. So even though it is possibe for him to rate rather Yi Deng has more energy than him or not, it's not possible for him to rate himself higher because what Yi Deng just preform was not within the boundary of his limits. So YG cannot know the boundary of Yi Deng's energy. And since GJ never fought GLFW at the end of ROCH, and his moves are always raw in strength(opposite to Yi Deng's), YG would not have had known that 1 Deng is equal to GJ.

Well wouldnt that become a who's a better fighter debate between Dugu and HS? U know who i'd go for?

I think 9 Yin's foundation being much better than any of the Great's cultivation, or sects are a fact right? Plus, JY mentioned that 9 Yin's martial arts to the highest level. A manual combined from thousands of scrolls should qualify having a good foundation.

Do u mean in the GJ vs YG thread or your previous post in this thread? What part do u want me to answer? The QQR part? I do not think as highly of QQR as u do. I think any of the greats would be able to kill him. Judging from the way YG was handling GWM with weakedn sad palms he should be able to take out QQR with less trouble. Although there is no direct proof that where QQR stands after 16 years. Pre sixteen years JY said 1deng may have been able to defeat him. And Yg was taking him on pretty well...although he was cheap..i think Yg would have came out on top anyhow.

I meant for you to answer the whole thing of the long post in this thread that you cut out in quotes. There's a lot of missing explaination. Like how wudang's cultivation improve as you train etc etc. QQR at the Great's level is pretty much a fact right? GJ commented in LOCH that he's as good as H7G and OYF. ZBT was only a tie with him until he uses L/R and 9 Yin. JY said in ROCH that if 1 Deng combined STG with 1YZ and fought with all his might, "he "might" gain an upper hand in a move or half a stance after a long hard battle. JY even made it a "might", not he could gain it after a long hard battle.

[duguxiaojing]

Yeah, but then Jin Yong also said that experts cannot hold back. Whatever that means. But the thing is that GJ was seeing stars because his chi was not enough. And JY already said that his energy cannot be compare to OYF.

What i was refering to is that when the greats did not go all out they were placed in a disadvantage.

The Greats was going easy for the first 200 moves. When HYS used max for his last 100 stances, GJ was having truble and seeing stars afterward. If HYS gone for real at start, I don't hink GJ can last over 150.

When the greats went "easy" on Gj they were losing.

The long one that I'd posted in this thread.

I already answered that part about QQR what other parts are there? Post the parts that i didnt answer and i will answer them.

I said this several months ago, but the need to move to the south sea to train proves that there are something different with the torrent training compare to normal ones that only require meditation to accumulate chi. YG would probably increase his chi faster when he just start, and more subtle later on with the South Sea. My theory is that there's a limit to the amount of strength you may have even when you accumulate more chi. So naturally, YG can only hold on the waves for a limited amount of time, which is also his physical limits. So after you get used to it, you don't improve as fast.

Sound pretty reasonalbe.

If the comment on YG's energy being somewhat more abundant than Yi Deng is true, then GLFW should be also. I would think that he practiced the LJBYG throughout his life, but GLFW pre-16 years cannot overpower ZBT, so his energy did in some form, became superior. But I would still say not by that much. I cannot comment on whether it's true or not, cuz other than Yi Deng, I don't think GLFW has any otherstanding of the exact level of energy HYS and ZBT has. YG didn't even know how strong GLFW's energy really is until they got into a deadlock with his wheels and Heavy Sword; even after numerous encounters. So I do have doubts with GLFW's hasty judgements with so least proof.

I dont think GWM's inner power was superior. It was more overbearing yes but had they continued fighting we dont know who would have won.

SB i fell its unfair that u can just say i dont believe this guy when u want to. I mean GWM is an expert at the highest level. HE fought ZBT and 1deng. After the first blast from 1deng GWM KNEW the level of fighter that 1deng was. From that one stance was GWM right? YES it was even backed up by JY's comments on 1deng's inner power. GWM should know the level of power that HYS due to how hard the wheel shook. From that distance only a person of high inner power could use a rock to shake his wheel. I mean from a simple slap HYS could tell that YG had created his own unique and powerful technique. If you can believe a inexpirence GJ that QQR=H7G why cant u believe the words of a master?

1. Not enough proofs like what I mentioned.

Fine i will give u benefit of a doubt for HYS. What about ZBT and 1deng certainly he should know their levels after fighting them right????

Yeah, but then they were using the people as mediums, so we are not sure exactly what will happen if they actually has physical contacts.

I feel that u are just making up excuses now SB do u seriously believe that? What ever though it was stated by JY that the ENERGY FROM DGST COUNTERED THE ENERGY FROM YG"S SAD PALMS. Also it was stated that DGST was NOT inferior to YG's sadpalms. Also HYS knew that the ENERGY from his palms were inferior to sadpalms therefor he used DGST to counter. So what if they used people to test internal power? H7g and OYF used sticks. GWm a whell and YG a sword. Jsut read the fight over SB.

I mentioned on that thread before that YG's comment isn't dependable. This statement was once used by phillip to prove that GJ is under YG because Yi Deng said he does not have as abundant amount of energy as YG. So in Yi Deng's own opinion, it's Yi Deng< YG. But that cannot be used as proof to YG being stronger than GJ cuz he classed him with Yi Deng. The reason is that YG doe snot know how much energy Yi Deng have. Since Yi Deng proformed a mile speech that impressed YG because it's something that he cannot preform himself. So even though it is possibe for him to rate rather Yi Deng has more energy than him or not, it's not possible for him to rate himself higher because what Yi Deng just preform was not within the boundary of his limits. So YG cannot know the boundary of Yi Deng's energy. And since GJ never fought GLFW at the end of ROCH, and his moves are always raw in strength(opposite to Yi Deng's), YG would not have had known that 1 Deng is equal to GJ.

So basically u are saying u dont trust YG's judgement right? What about JY's does the author not know the extent of his own character's abilities as well?

I think 9 Yin's foundation being much better than any of the Great's cultivation, or sects are a fact right? Plus, JY mentioned that 9 Yin's martial arts to the highest level. A manual combined from thousands of scrolls should qualify having a good foundation.

I will say 9yin is superior in that it gives u a huge burst in power and reaching a level that it takes other Martail arts at the highest level a longer time to reach. As far as im concerned from YG and JY it;s stated that all the greats are at the same level u can ignore it if u want but the comments are there.

I meant for you to answer the whole thing of the long post in this thread that you cut out in quotes. There's a lot of missing explaination. Like how wudang's cultivation improve as you train etc etc. QQR at the Great's level is pretty much a fact right? GJ commented in LOCH that he's as good as H7G and OYF. ZBT was only a tie with him until he uses L/R and 9 Yin. JY said in ROCH that if 1 Deng combined STG with 1YZ and fought with all his might, "he "might" gain an upper hand in a move or half a stance after a long hard battle. JY even made it a "might", not he could gain it after a long hard battle.

Like i said what parts did i miss? I answered the Wudang thing why hasnt Z3F the creator of Wudang reached a level beyond the greats despite being much older.

Alot of people do not think QQR is great level. From his fight with YG i dont think he is at the greats level unless YG is> the greats pre-sixteen years.

I said before i never read LOCH so i dunno does ZBT has to use 9yin techs to beat him? Thats surprising since ZBT pretty much gave up his fight and slapped himself for using 9yin techs on HYS.

[superboy]

What i was refering to is that when the greats did not go all out they were placed in a disadvantage.

Yeah, but it's still mentioned that GJ's chi cannot be compared to OYG. I sort of take that that GJ would at least have less than 7/10 of the Great's energy at that point.

I already answered that part about QQR what other parts are there? Post the parts that i didnt answer and i will answer them.

Like if you think that there energy does slow down as you age, etc., I provided some explainations. They still need to be explained in order to say people's energy does slow down. And the reasons that I'd gave due to bad adjustments, do you think it's fair or not?

I dont think GWM's inner power was superior. It was more overbearing yes but had they continued fighting we dont know who would have won.

SB i fell its unfair that u can just say i dont believe this guy when u want to. I mean GWM is an expert at the highest level. HE fought ZBT and 1deng. After the first blast from 1deng GWM KNEW the level of fighter that 1deng was. From that one stance was GWM right? YES it was even backed up by JY's comments on 1deng's inner power. GWM should know the level of power that HYS due to how hard the wheel shook. From that distance only a person of high inner power could use a rock to shake his wheel. I mean from a simple slap HYS could tell that YG had created his own unique and powerful technique. If you can believe a inexpirence GJ that QQR=H7G why cant u believe the words of a master?

That's because GJ was quite familiar with the martial arts of OF and H7G at the point. And martial arts/skills does not hide. While on internal energy, you need to consider wither it's yin or yang, agressive or not, profound or not. YG didn't have a good idea of how strong GLFW's chi was after several encounters. They needed a energy match to actually know. If ZBT only used vacant fist, then how do GLFW know how much energy he has when he barely used any to fought? He do understand his skill, but not chi . GLFW does not know HYS used his DZST, and judging the "exact" amount cannot be determined like this. You can probably judge that the person is an expect, but you cannot class those people together. If GJ through a pebble without using DZST, will it be as powerful? Probably not, but you cannot say that it's because he's not as strong as HYS.

I feel that u are just making up excuses now SB do u seriously believe that? What ever though it was stated by JY that the ENERGY FROM DGST COUNTERED THE ENERGY FROM YG"S SAD PALMS. Also it was stated that DGST was NOT inferior to YG's sadpalms. Also HYS knew that the ENERGY from his palms were inferior to sadpalms therefor he used DGST to counter. So what if they used people to test internal power? H7g and OYF used sticks. GWm a whell and YG a sword. Jsut read the fight over SB.

I sincerely did not intent tomake excuses. But I really do not really believe that in terms of raw power, DZSG can neccesarily match YG's Sad Palms now. Us to think otherwise, but I found out that HYS's fingers never touched YG's palm, and if two techniques are equals, then shouldn't a more robust energy give more raw power? And the medium comparisons are sort of different. Because the people were literally flying in air.

So basically u are saying u dont trust YG's judgement right? What about JY's does the author not know the extent of his own character's abilities as well?

Yeah, but I pointed out that point earlier to phillip on the other thread. Was more logic reasoable or did I mess up? I trust the author's comment of course. That's why I used the "luckier" comment. But can only that group has as "impressive" energy as ZWJ really say that the "group" all have the same amount of energy, and was talking about abundance?

I will say 9yin is superior in that it gives u a huge burst in power and reaching a level that it takes other Martail arts at the highest level a longer time to reach. As far as im concerned from YG and JY it;s stated that all the greats are at the same level u can ignore it if u want but the comments are there.

Why do you think 9 Yin is superior because it gives you a good kick on your power at the beginning? If so, then how come it seems like HR never even reached 33 years old GJ's level at the end of ROCH? If it's really designed to kick you to a certain level after you mastered it then slow down, then shouldn't HR be around GJ's level? What's the trigger for the boost to slow down anway? I don't think it's time, because it would mean that you'll have to cramp as much training as you can to get the most boost. So it can only means that after you got to a certian level of chi abundance, it slows down. HR at the start of ROCH was not GJ's equal in energy. Say GJ got the whole boost faster because he trained more. So say he improved at speed 9, and slowed down to 4. Then after GJ's boost was over, wouldn't HR easily caught up close to GJ after his boost is over while she isn't? But HR never seems to be as strong even in her 50s. Whatever boost should be finished by then right? And not to mentioned that calculating it, the boost should be 13 times or more than the after subtle effect if we compare GJ's improvements in LOCH to the 13 years. So how is it possible with HR's case that she's not GJ's close equalby the end of ROCH?

[superboy]

Like i said what parts did i miss? I answered the Wudang thing why hasnt Z3F the creator of Wudang reached a level beyond the greats despite being much older.

Alot of people do not think QQR is great level. From his fight with YG i dont think he is at the greats level unless YG is> the greats pre-sixteen years.

I said before i never read LOCH so i dunno does ZBT has to use 9yin techs to beat him? Thats surprising since ZBT pretty much gave up his fight and slapped himself for using 9yin techs on HYS.

I just though it would be better if you provide some explaination. Like how H7G was still improving as fast as the Greats with a portion of 9 Yin. Internal energy imrpoving faster and faster for Wudang's(which is like real life with certain cultivations)., ecetera.

And I found out many people that thought QQR was weaker than the Greats usually got it from adaptations, not from the novel. And YG defeated QQR with the heavy sword was also because he was purposely shoving snows in his eyes with his sword.

[duguxiaojing]

Yeah, but it's still mentioned that GJ's chi cannot be compared to OYG. I sort of take that that GJ would at least have less than 7/10 of the Great's energy at that point.

Yeah ill agree with 7/10 it sounded like you were saying the greats could take Gj without trying which was not the case. They were going all out to match him.

Like if you think that there energy does slow down as you age, etc., I provided some explainations. They still need to be explained in order to say people's energy does slow down. And the reasons that I'd gave due to bad adjustments, do you think it's fair or not?

Umm i dont think inner power slow's down with age. But there is proof that it does slow down at least in GJ YG's and GWM's case.
As i said before u mentioned Bad adjustment but never stated what that is. Is it a theory u made? can u post it?

That's because GJ was quite familiar with the martial arts of OF and H7G at the point. And martial arts/skills does not hide. While on internal energy, you need to consider wither it's yin or yang, agressive or not, profound or not. YG didn't have a good idea of how strong GLFW's chi was after several encounters. They needed a energy match to actually know. If ZBT only used vacant fist, then how do GLFW know how much energy he has when he barely used any to fought? He do understand his skill, but not chi . GLFW does not know HYS used his DZST, and judging the "exact" amount cannot be determined like this. You can probably judge that the person is an expect, but you cannot class those people together. If GJ through a pebble without using DZST, will it be as powerful? Probably not, but you cannot say that it's because he's not as strong as HYS.

Yg had a pretty good idea of how strong GWM was. Its just that he overestimated himself. Gwm's inner power was extremely deep. YG did not force the innner power contest GWM attacked XLN which made YG block. IN the inner power contest it was said that the power of Iron Sword was made useless. The battle seemed to be about a draw or YG having upper hand even with XLN holding him.


Also its the chi powering the technique. Notice how JY comments on the energy of the palm or fist. I think its a pretty accurate judgement. You will need a lot of force to move his wheel. If GJ threw the rock would he have been able to move the wheel?
U cannot get an exact amount but it takes alot of power use a pebble to kill.

I sincerely did not intent tomake excuses. But I really do not really believe that in terms of raw power, DZSG can neccesarily match YG's Sad Palms now. Us to think otherwise, but I found out that HYS's fingers never touched YG's palm, and if two techniques are equals, then shouldn't a more robust energy give more raw power? And the medium comparisons are sort of different. Because the people were literally flying in air.

In raw power they cannot match but WYS has some element in his inner power that makes it = to YG. The energies countered one another. It was stated clearly by jin yong that DGST=SadPalms there were no winners or losers in match. ITs inner power that powers technique so a standstill would mean their energies are equal. Plus JY commented that the energy from both stances countered one another. They were competing inner power in this case. Look at WJ his inner power is gentle but as u said it still looks very forceful and robust in battle. Or 1deng's 1YZ it was gentle but forceful. Same with DGST.

Yeah, but I pointed out that point earlier to phillip on the other thread. Was more logic reasoable or did I mess up? I trust the author's comment of course. That's why I used the "luckier" comment. But can only that group has as "impressive" energy as ZWJ really say that the "group" all have the same amount of energy, and was talking about abundance?

No it did not state amount of inner power but rather that they were on same level. Ive said this quite a few times we dont know who has more abundant or pure agressive ect.... but they are roughly at the same level.


From hearing JY(gwok yuen) talk YG had a pretty clear idea of his level of inner power. judging from the way 3f talk's about him his feats at shaolin+Wj's feats its pretty clear that Yg is close to dead on about his level of inner power right? So if Yg can tell JY's level by his talking(long distance shouting not 1deng's) why cant he tell 1deng's level. Heck even GY who knew zero martial arts new Yg was a extremely powerful martial artist listening to him call back.

Why do you think 9 Yin is superior because it gives you a good kick on your power at the beginning? If so, then how come it seems like HR never even reached 33 years old GJ's level at the end of ROCH? If it's really designed to kick you to a certain level after you mastered it then slow down, then shouldn't HR be around GJ's level? What's the trigger for the boost to slow down anway? I don't think it's time, because it would mean that you'll have to cramp as much training as you can to get the most boost. So it can only means that after you got to a certian level of chi abundance, it slows down. HR at the start of ROCH was not GJ's equal in energy. Say GJ got the whole boost faster because he trained more. So say he improved at speed 9, and slowed down to 4. Then after GJ's boost was over, wouldn't HR easily caught up close to GJ after his boost is over. But HR never seems to be as strong even in her 50s. Whatever boost should be finished by then right?

HR has a decent level of inner power. Im not sure ,the novel said she had alot of knowledge in 9yin never mentions if she trains 9yin at least i dont recall it. Her inner power is at a pretty high level though. Maybe its like u say she did not train very hard. But Hr seems to at a profound level. In one scene whats her name? QQR martial sister. The crippled one from passionless valley who had pretty prfound inner power due to being stuck in a pit for 20 years??? and having nothing to do?? remember her calling into the hall and pretending to be QQR her inner power was at a high level. HR took 2 shots in the stomach and caught the last shot with her teetht hen spit it into the roof(seed). Thats a pretty impressive display of inner power isnt it? considering qqr's martial sister uses that technique to kill. But still not Gj level i dont think....hmmm not sure. Perhaps HR did not train as agressively as Gj did.

I just though it would be better if you provide some explaination. Like how H7G was still improving as fast as the Greats with a portion of 9 Yin. Internal energy imrpoving faster and faster for Wudang's(which is like real life with certain cultivations)., etcetera.

Well i thought u said it was not really training but just unblocking his nerves with the 9yin inner power? As for Modong perhaps the initation rate is slow? Why is Z3F roughly at the level of the other greats despite beining older? I think their is diffrence in diffrent cultivation.

And I found out many people that thought QQR was weaker than the Greats usually got it from adaptations, not from the novel.

Okay i watched Li ya ping? version of LOCH and he did look pathetic.. but other people who have read novel believe other wise as well. In Roch he did seem weaker then YG. Maybe its an image thing.......i believe Yg to be = or below rest of greats pre 16 year seperation. But YG beat QQR pretty easy although he did cheat...i could not picture Yg using snow to blind HYS or Gj and defeating him like that. Also YG seemed to be winning even before he pulled that.

[duguxiaojing]

Regarding the origina question i think Gong Lik can mean both inner power and technique although i still believe in this casewith GMW its inner power. I was skimming through Chapter 23 where YG uses DGST to counter WST's(wu bro's father the farmer from 1deng's disciples) 1YZ. It was stated that YG had jsut come across DGST from HYS recently well WST had studied 1YZ for years. WST Gong Lik was said to be profound.(gong like sum how) I think we agreed sum how is prfound????. So YG's DGST could not match. So at least in this case gong like can mean both technique and inner power. In terms of level of technqiue and innner power that is. It was made pretty clear that both were famous tech's and having one tech over other does not determine victor. Its jsut that WST had reached a profound level of gong likwhil YG had just begun to study hard and his "gongLik" was said to be shallow(at this time.)

[superboy]

Umm i dont think inner power slow's down with age. But there is proof that it does slow down at least in GJ YG's and GWM's case.
As i said before u mentioned Bad adjustment but never stated what that is. Is it a theory u made? can u post it?

Yeah, it's the thing that I talked about in like at least 15 pages on the other thread.......
It's how it's hard for the author to adjust the improvement rate of his main guy when the story is focused on him. Because he'll need to show how he will improve from a nobody to a top class fighter in only a few years. So I believe that's the reason that GJ slowed ddwon over 13 times compare to LOCH. That's the only logical reason I can give. So when the character is out of view from the readers, it would be easiler to adjust, which may result in more subtle improvements.

In raw power they cannot match but WYS has some element in his inner power that makes it = to YG. The energies countered one another. It was stated clearly by jin yong that DGST=SadPalms there were no winners or losers in match. ITs inner power that powers technique so a standstill would mean their energies are equal. Plus JY commented that the energy from both stances countered one another. They were competing inner power in this case. Look at WJ his inner power is gentle but as u said it still looks very forceful and robust in battle. Or 1deng's 1YZ it was gentle but forceful. Same with DGST.

But it was apparent that it was a match of power, which is the specialty of HYS. So the comment on YG having more energy than Yi Deng isn't true? And how do you know that it's not because of the effect of the medium, but something in HYS's energy that allowed so?

Yg had a pretty good idea of how strong GWM was. Its just that he overestimated himself. Gwm's inner power was extremely deep. YG did not force the innner power contest GWM attacked XLN which made YG block. IN the inner power contest it was said that the power of Iron Sword was made useless. The battle seemed to be about a draw or YG having upper hand even with XLN holding him.


Also its the chi powering the technique. Notice how JY comments on the energy of the palm or fist. I think its a pretty accurate judgement. You will need a lot of force to move his wheel. If GJ threw the rock would he have been able to move the wheel?
U cannot get an exact amount but it takes alot of power use a pebble to kill.

Isn't that like the same thing? YG did not knew GLFW's energy was that deep, that's why he overestimate himself. The other possibility is that he himself wasn't even aware of his own amount of energy, but I doubt it.

And if GJ didn't use DZST to to throw a pibble, it cannot have the level of power as HYS's launched from the DZST. So GLFW's judgement although could be corrects, still cannot be a good classing system owho has more power, etc.

No it did not state amount of inner power but rather that they were on same level. Ive said this quite a few times we dont know who has more abundant or pure agressive ect.... but they are roughly at the same level.


From hearing JY(gwok yuen) talk YG had a pretty clear idea of his level of inner power. judging from the way 3f talk's about him his feats at shaolin+Wj's feats its pretty clear that Yg is close to dead on about his level of inner power right? So if Yg can tell JY's level by his talking(long distance shouting not 1deng's) why cant he tell 1deng's level. Heck even GY who knew zero martial arts new Yg was a extremely powerful martial artist listening to him call back.

Because Yi Deng preformed something that YG himself cannot do, a talk that was heard from miles, not a yell. Because YG cannot preform it himself, and didn't know did Yi Deng preform it with the full extent of his energy, it is not possible for him to think Yi Deng has less energy than him. So saying the comment of YG of Gj=Yi Deng means YG is superior can never be applied. But Yi Deng also classed YG's abundance above his own. So if YG never couldhave figured out rather or not Yi Deng's energy is higher or lower than his own, and Yi Deng thought that he's lower than YG because he cannot preform the roar, then the contradiction means that it's contradiction coming from YG's mouth. I think it's possible to class if the person's energy his very high or not, but to class both together as equal without knowing thier robustness, profoundness, etc., and seeing them preform the same speech or yell with their max isn't possible.

HR has a decent level of inner power. Im not sure ,the novel said she had alot of knowledge in 9yin never mentions if she trains 9yin at least i dont recall it. Her inner power is at a pretty high level though. Maybe its like u say she did not train very hard. But Hr seems to at a profound level. In one scene whats her name? QQR martial sister. The crippled one from passionless valley who had pretty prfound inner power due to being stuck in a pit for 20 years??? and having nothing to do?? remember her calling into the hall and pretending to be QQR her inner power was at a high level. HR took 2 shots in the stomach and caught the last shot with her teetht hen spit it into the roof(seed). Thats a pretty impressive display of inner power isnt it? considering qqr's martial sister uses that technique to kill. But still not Gj level i dont think....hmmm not sure. Perhaps HR did not train as agressively as Gj did.

I believe this is where my bad adjustment theory apply. HR should have been GJ's rough equal by the time YG was 19-20. Since GJ should have already recieved the full boost. And I don't believe that it's mainly because GJ train harder. I think that's the reason that he's stronger than GJ in the field of chi, but no way he trained 13 times as hard as HR. We knew that HR's energy cannot be compared to the Greats. So although catching the seed means she got high energy, it still does not explain why GJ seems to have so much higher energy.

[superboy]

Okay i watched Li ya ping? version of LOCH and he did look pathetic.. but other people who have read novel believe other wise as well. In Roch he did seem weaker then YG. Maybe its an image thing.......i believe Yg to be = or below rest of greats pre 16 year seperation. But YG beat QQR pretty easy although he did cheat...i could not picture Yg using snow to blind HYS or Gj and defeating him like that. Also YG seemed to be winning even before he pulled that.

Really? Who? And what was their reasons?