View Poll Results: Who was right? Qi or Sword faction?

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  • Qi

    7 70.00%
  • Sword

    0 0%
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Thread: Qi or Sword

  1. #1
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    Default Qi or Sword

    In Xiao Ao Jiang Hu, Hua Shan Sect split into two factions:
    The Qi faction believed that
    Once your inner energy is developed with Qi-Gong practices, then regardless of what you use as your weapon, let be your fists and legs, or knives and swords, you will succeed whenever you go. That is the righteous way for training...
    The Sword branch believed that
    the key of our school’s Kung Fu lied in the word ‘Sword,’ and that once someone developed his sword skills, even with ordinary level of inner energy, he could still defeat the enemy. ”
    Who do you think was right? Or if you subscribe to an alternative view, please share.

  2. #2
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Both.

    An extreme advantage in either sense will win the day. LHC was beating people with vastly superior internal energy than himself because of his sublime technique. Meanwhile, you have some people (like Xu Zhu) who was simply so strong internally that nothing could harm them. Obviously the perfect fighter will have both, but the absence of one or the other isn't necessarily a death knell.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Qi branch

    Without a sword, LHC was not very effective as a fighter. With Qi, one can apply that to many uses either in combat, healing, qing gong, etc.

    Another good comparison would be to ask the question-- if you were a beginner with no martial arts experience, would you rather learn DGJ9 (techniques) or learn the full version of BMSG (internal)?

    Personally I'd take the BMSG. With enough internal, techniques will come easy (ZWJ, XZ, DY are good examples). There are always techniques that you can't learn because you don't have enough internal, but never the other way around.

    __________________________

    If we are restricting ourselves only to the Hua Shan school, I would still choose Qi branch. Because DGJ9 isn't originally a Hua Shan technique. So it shouldn't be included in the Hua Shan skill development tree
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 03-04-11 at 08:36 AM.

  4. #4
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    I think they're just polar opposites that balance out like Yin and Yang. The balance is illustrated by DGQB's mastery of the sword. He had DG9J which is the final word in technique trumps all. And he had HIS which is simple direct power beats all.
    LHC is not an ideal example because he hasn't mastered DG9J. FQY already showed that even the hands can be used as a sword, DG9J is all about doing away with self imposed restrictions. HIS is supposed to lead to sword without sword, eventually everything goes back to nothing.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banh Mi View Post
    I think they're just polar opposites that balance out like Yin and Yang. The balance is illustrated by DGQB's mastery of the sword. He had DG9J which is the final word in technique trumps all. And he had HIS which is simple direct power beats all.
    LHC is not an ideal example because he hasn't mastered DG9J. FQY already showed that even the hands can be used as a sword, DG9J is all about doing away with self imposed restrictions. HIS is supposed to lead to sword without sword, eventually everything goes back to nothing.
    They are polar opposites in philosophy, but I don't believe they achieve equal and opposite results.

    As demonstrated in SPW-- RWX's roar was able to knock LHC unconscious. There is nothing LHC can do against that unless he has high enough lvl of internal. There are also other instances such as YG or HYS where their internal generated sounds can defeat an opponent without even engaging in any technique based combat.

    In ref to LHC fighting w/o a sword... FQY told LHC that he can use finger as a sword. However, even if LHC hit XZ or ZWJ with his finger, it wouldn't much damage.

    In the case of YTZ who had tons of internal but very little technique-- he was able to "instinctively" summersault due to his internal energy. And he was able to beat many top tier martial artists who probably had better technique than him.

  6. #6
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    If you have strong inner power, then it might help you greatly to become an excellent swordsman.

    If you're an excellent swordsman...that in of itself won't help you much to attain strong inner power.

    Moreover, the great swordsman with little/no inner power still has to get into striking range; the inner power master can blast away from long range.

  7. #7
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    I think it's pretty balanced in terms of how easy/hard it can be to train both with regards to their benefits.

    Inner power is clearly better all round, but it also takes decades to achieve decent progress without some sort of freak accident. Technique/sword mastery can be attained much quicker depending on intelligence.

    No sane person should choose a polarized method of training, and a 70/30 split with either sword or inner power emphasis seems pretty equal with neither being clearly better.

    It just seems to be an efficiency and raw power balance. Inner power increases your raw power, but mastering external/sword skills increases your efficiency in its use. 1000 raw points with 30% efficiency (qi method) is the same as 600 raw points with 50% efficiency (sword method). If you are too far deficient in either department your mastery of the other one no matter how high won't save you.

    People like Xu Zhu (at first) have like 5% efficiency but their inner power is like seventy million so it still works out.

    Inner power seems to trump sword skills only because we have many more examples of people accidentally having great inner power and beating experts. It's a lot harder to accidentally gain sword skills. I think it seems like inner power is the better route, but that's only if you believe that martial artists like the Greats have achieved close to their full potential given their level of inner strength. They could easily only be performing at 20% efficiency (see Yang Guo with like 20% effective internal and HIS).
    Last edited by tape; 03-04-11 at 03:49 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member ChanceEncounter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banh Mi View Post
    I think they're just polar opposites that balance out like Yin and Yang. The balance is illustrated by DGQB's mastery of the sword. He had DG9J which is the final word in technique trumps all. And he had HIS which is simple direct power beats all.
    LHC is not an ideal example because he hasn't mastered DG9J. FQY already showed that even the hands can be used as a sword, DG9J is all about doing away with self imposed restrictions. HIS is supposed to lead to sword without sword, eventually everything goes back to nothing.
    DGQB as written probably had incredible levels of both qi and sword, so I don't think it's worth using him as an example either.

    The thought that it's easier to become immediately proficient in technique is also true. But this isn't to say that the person who attains godlike technique would completely neglect qi, just that his qi wouldn't be as cultivated as someone who dedicated his life to that focus. It's ultimately a function of both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snafu3721 View Post
    They are polar opposites in philosophy, but I don't believe they achieve equal and opposite results.

    As demonstrated in SPW-- RWX's roar was able to knock LHC unconscious. There is nothing LHC can do against that unless he has high enough lvl of internal. There are also other instances such as YG or HYS where their internal generated sounds can defeat an opponent without even engaging in any technique based combat.

    In ref to LHC fighting w/o a sword... FQY told LHC that he can use finger as a sword. However, even if LHC hit XZ or ZWJ with his finger, it wouldn't much damage.

    In the case of YTZ who had tons of internal but very little technique-- he was able to "instinctively" summersault due to his internal energy. And he was able to beat many top tier martial artists who probably had better technique than him.
    It's a bit unfair to draw comparisons seeing as how we only have LHC to compare from a technique perspective. But almost every other character is an inner power proponent. LHC couldn't beat a roar attack, maybe someone else could. He showed that he could fight people who fought with sounds. LHC still has yet to master the energy breaking style. I don't think it's completely impossible. Just that those attacks are generated from decades of training, and XZ had nearly a century of internal energy. A person with similar time in techniques might be able to offer a solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    DGQB as written probably had incredible levels of both qi and sword, so I don't think it's worth using him as an example either.

    The thought that it's easier to become immediately proficient in technique is also true. But this isn't to say that the person who attains godlike technique would completely neglect qi, just that his qi wouldn't be as cultivated as someone who dedicated his life to that focus. It's ultimately a function of both.
    I don't mean it for a fighter to train in favour of one but to the total exclusion of the other. Just that it follows the philosophy of one extreme or the other. Like in Brazilian Jiujitsu, one way to look at what kind of grappler you are is, are you the slow methodical technician who works at turtle pace because your technique is maximised by every tiny detail you add and have your weight perfectly placed, they see everything you're doing, but they can't stop you. Or are you the explosive energiser bunny who relies on speed and unpredictable explosiveness to catch your opponent unaware and beat their reactions.
    In the end you can do the same techniques, but your approach is just different, but it is always best to be able to do both.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banh Mi View Post
    It's a bit unfair to draw comparisons seeing as how we only have LHC to compare from a technique perspective. But almost every other character is an inner power proponent. LHC couldn't beat a roar attack, maybe someone else could. He showed that he could fight people who fought with sounds. LHC still has yet to master the energy breaking style. I don't think it's completely impossible. Just that those attacks are generated from decades of training, and XZ had nearly a century of internal energy. A person with similar time in techniques might be able to offer a solution.
    LHC is a prime example who received probably the best, most elite technique in the entire JY universe. I would put that in the same league as finding BMSG. When we analyze technique vs internal, we must use a equal scale of comparison because in normal martial progression, people don't usually learn one technique (DG9J) and all of a sudden become top tier in wulin.

    So I would say learning DG9J = learning BMSG. Both are hax skills that basically allow any decent scrub to jump tiers. Except DGJ9 requires intelligence where BMSG basically just needs me to touch people.

    Learning Dog beating Stick/XL18P/Finger snap/elite techniques = learning 9-yang.





    Quote Originally Posted by Bahn Mi
    I don't mean it for a fighter to train in favour of one but to the total exclusion of the other. Just that it follows the philosophy of one extreme or the other. Like in Brazilian Jiujitsu, one way to look at what kind of grappler you are is, are you the slow methodical technician who works at turtle pace because your technique is maximised by every tiny detail you add and have your weight perfectly placed, they see everything you're doing, but they can't stop you. Or are you the explosive energiser bunny who relies on speed and unpredictable explosiveness to catch your opponent unaware and beat their reactions.
    In the end you can do the same techniques, but your approach is just different, but it is always best to be able to do both.
    Wuxia doesn't work like BJJ. People in wuxia get speed boosts, strength boosts, agility boosts, reflex boosts automatically when they have more internal.

    Ideally people need to train both internal and technique. But in wuxia, there are just more benefits to focusing on internal energy.

  11. #11
    Senior Member CancerLuna's Avatar
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    Food for thought:

    Having alot of internal and losing to someone with less = choke/underperforming - GWMvsXLN/YG
    Having less internal/no internal and beating someone with more = good fighter, overperforming - LHCvsMany

    Internal is clearly > External, all things equal

  12. #12
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    Who do you think was right? Or if you subscribe to an alternative view, please share.
    Both can be true, but neither is the absolute truth. They're just different solutions to the same problem.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  13. #13
    Member Swordsman83's Avatar
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    just a question, which internal energy would best compliment Du gu jiu jian ??

  14. #14
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    If talking about extremes, I would say Qi definitely. As in, either zero Qi or zero technique, go for Qi.

    It must be taken into context that LHC at no point was totally devoid of Qi. In fact, multiple times, JY stressed that he was either saved by the many streams of absorbed Qi in him, or that the speed which he executed his DG9J with, can be credited to his strong absorbed Qi which happened to surge forth.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  15. #15
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman83 View Post
    just a question, which internal energy would best compliment Du gu jiu jian ??
    Well, Sunflower would make it really fast

    Imagine DFBB speed with DG9J effectiveness. The only sweeter thing would be to replace DG9J with 6MSJ, but not sure if it can be powered with Sunflower internal, or if it's possible to acquire Sunflower IE (for speed gain) after already having mountains of 6MSJ-powering IE.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  16. #16
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Sword techniques can only be used to injure or kill people. While injuring and killing people represent very important aspects of wulin life, they aren't everything. Superior chi has so many other applications such as healing (both self and others) and escaping tight situations.
    Last edited by Ken Cheng; 07-13-17 at 12:31 AM.

  17. #17
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Well, Sunflower would make it really fast

    Imagine DFBB speed with DG9J effectiveness. The only sweeter thing would be to replace DG9J with 6MSJ, but not sure if it can be powered with Sunflower internal, or if it's possible to acquire Sunflower IE (for speed gain) after already having mountains of 6MSJ-powering IE.
    Sunflower speed with 6MSJ swords wielded using DG9J techniques.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  18. #18
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Sunflower speed with 6MSJ swords wielded using DG9J techniques.
    Brilliant.

    Now let's build the Ultimate Invincible Hero:

    Sunflower Speed + LBWB Movement + L/R Technique with DG9J Technique executed by 6MSJ Swords on one hand, simultaneously on the other hand a new hybrid of BMSG/XXDF that leeches without physical contact AND no internal conflict.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  19. #19
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Brilliant.

    Now let's build the Ultimate Invincible Hero:

    Sunflower Speed + LBWB Movement + L/R Technique with DG9J Technique executed by 6MSJ Swords on one hand, simultaneously on the other hand a new hybrid of BMSG/XXDF that leeches without physical contact AND no internal conflict.

    ....while sleeping on the Jade Ice Bed and learning the Dragon Elephant Prana from level 1.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  20. #20
    Senior Member Snafu3721's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Both can be true, but neither is the absolute truth. They're just different solutions to the same problem.
    I had just pictured two zen masters

    One has reached the pinnacle of Qi and the other reaching ultimate formlessness

    They stand facing each other.... thinking of how to beat the other opponent

    Then... the Qi faction master roars!!! =P
    Last edited by Snafu3721; 07-20-17 at 10:27 AM.

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