Yang Guo vs. Ling Hu Chong

[Laviathan]

To Yun_Feiyang:

This post of mine may sound a bit unfriendly...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Nowhere in Jin Yong's novels did he make this assertion. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

In DGSD, it was stated that the Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms form the ULTIMATE palm style in the world. But one can argue that Palms of Sadness did not exist during the Northern Song era, so it might be a unfair comparison.

BUT, it was indeed mentioned in ROCH that Guo Jing's Eighteen Dragon Palms are AT LEAST on par with Yang Guo's Palms of Sadness.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> What do you mean? YG did not fight Zhao Bak Tung after he mastered the 'Palm of Gloom'. Zhao would not have been his match.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yang and Zhou fought each other in Hundred Flower Valley. It was a draw. Yang Guo is more powerful than Zhou, but Zhou Botong knows Left-Right Technique while Yang Guo only has one arm, so technique-wise Yang Guo has a disadvantage. Only when Yang Guo used his new invented Palm Style did he make up for the lack of an arm.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> WYS's probably biased towards Guo Jing. Anyway, his comments are not Jin Yong's. YG did defeat HYS, its clearly stated in the novel. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please point out the EXACT scene in which Yang Guo DEFEATS Huang Yaoshi. For as far as I know, Yang Guo and Huang Yaoshi did compare palm skills, and Yang Guo's palm style was superior. Huang Yaoshi then changed to Snapping Finger Technique and it was a draw. So, this only proves that Yang Guo's palm techniques are better than Huang's, but it doesn't say anything about martial arts ON THE WHOLE. Yang Guo did NOT defeat Huang Yaoshi.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Have you read the novel? </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sure YOU did read the novel, sadly enough you did NOT read it thoroughly/good.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> But more importantly, its actually implied in the novel that YG can defeat GJ. Its a fact that Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng and Hong Qigong are equal in kung fu. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonsense. Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng died 17/18 years before the end of ROCH. During this period of 18 years, Huang Yaoshi lived and trained, further developing his skills. There's no comparison.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Guo Jing at his peak cannot defeat Ouyang Feng. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guo Jing at his peak? You mean at the beginning of ROCH when he and Ouyang Feng fought at the rooftops? Guo Jing at that point was clearly superior. Although he could not defeat Ouyang, he did not really suffer any injury, while Ouyang Feng had to recover for quite a long time. This implies that, after the end of LOCH, Guo Jing trained the Art of Nine Yin diligently and by the time of ROCH had already become equal to the Greats. A few years later, he even surpassed them.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Since YG defeated HYS, he can also defeat Ouyang Feng and thus he can also defeat GJ. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said, Yang Guo did not defeat Huang Yaoshi. Ouyang Feng has nothing to do with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Conclusion, YG's 'palm of gloom' better than GJ's 'dragon-subduing palms'." </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll give you this: Golden Wheel Monk at the Heroes Meeting exchanged hands with Guo Jing. It was stated that Golden Wheel Monk's internal power was somewhat higher than Guo Jing due to his age, while Guo Jing's martial arts techniques are better than the Monk's. Later at the MOngolian camp, Guo Jing showed a tremendous mastery of Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms combined with the internal arts of Nine Yin, proving that he can indeed defeat Golden Wheel Monk.
Yang Guo, after having learned Heavy Ironsword faced Golden Wheel Monk at Chongyang Shrine. Technique-wise, he too was superior to Golden Wheel Monk, but once they tried to overcome each other with internal power, Yang Guo was still not as strong as Golden Wheel Monk.
Sixteen years later, Golden Wheel Monk and Yang Guo faced each other again, this time Golden Wheel Monk initially seemed superior but in the end Yang Guo could use the highest form of Palms of Sadness to defeat him. What does that prove? It proves that Yang Guo made greater progress in the martial arts but it does not prove that he is superior to Guo Jing. We did not see Guo Jing's martial arts level after the 16 years of seperation, so we can't compare. We simply don't know.

We saw Yang Guo at his peak.

We saw Golden Wheel Monk at his peak.

But we NEVER saw Guo Jing at his peak.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> Please answer directly on point. Thanks. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look, with all due respect, you are totally entitled to have your own view on this matter. If you really think Yang Guo is superior to Guo Jing, fine no problem. But up to this point you do not have anything substantial to back it up yet you try to convince others that it is a FACT instead of your own OPINION. To make it even worse, you sound like your dishing people off for "not having read the novel", now that's not nice.

[Yun_Feiyang]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Laviathan:
<STRONG>To Yun_Feiyang:

This post of mine may sound a bit unfriendly...



Look, with all due respect, you are totally entitled to have your own view on this matter. If you really think Yang Guo is superior to Guo Jing, fine no problem. But up to this point you do not have anything substantial to back it up yet you try to convince others that it is a FACT instead of your own OPINION. </STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds a little like 'the pot calling the kettle black'.

[Yun_Feiyang]

(Quotes are by Laviathan)
To Yun_Feiyang:

"This post of mine may sound a bit unfriendly..."

Why? I thought we were all just having a friendly discussion...

"In DGSD, it was stated that the Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms form the ULTIMATE palm style in the world. But one can argue that Palms of Sadness did not exist during the Northern Song era, so it might be a unfair comparison."

You just answered your own question.

"Yang and Zhou fought each other in Hundred Flower Valley. It was a draw. Yang Guo is more powerful than Zhou, but Zhou Botong knows Left-Right Technique while Yang Guo only has one arm, so technique-wise Yang Guo has a disadvantage. Only when Yang Guo used his new invented Palm Style did he make up for the lack of an arm."

Open to interpretation and not conclusive.

"Please point out the EXACT scene in which Yang Guo DEFEATS Huang Yaoshi. For as far as I know, Yang Guo and Huang Yaoshi did compare palm skills, and Yang Guo's palm style was superior. Huang Yaoshi then changed to Snapping Finger Technique and it was a draw. So, this only proves that Yang Guo's palm techniques are better than Huang's, but it doesn't say anything about martial arts ON THE WHOLE. Yang Guo did NOT defeat Huang Yaoshi."

YG would have defeated Huang if the fight was in deadly earnest. You don't really believe the 'snapping finger' technique can compare to YG or GJ's palm skills do you?

"I am sure YOU did read the novel, sadly enough you did NOT read it thoroughly/good."

Thanks for pointing this out.

"Nonsense. Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng died 17/18 years before the end of ROCH. During this period of 18 years, Huang Yaoshi lived and trained, further developing his skills. There's no comparison."

Is this a fact or merely your opinion? What skills did HYS develop and when did he develop them? How do you know he actually developed any skill during the 18 years? For all we know, he could have been eating potato chips and drinking beer and watching tv for the entire 18 years.

"Guo Jing at his peak? You mean at the beginning of ROCH when he and Ouyang Feng fought at the rooftops? Guo Jing at that point was clearly superior. Although he could not defeat Ouyang, he did not really suffer any injury, while Ouyang Feng had to recover for quite a long time. This implies that, after the end of LOCH, Guo Jing trained the Art of Nine Yin diligently and by the time of ROCH had already become equal to the Greats. A few years later, he even surpassed them."

Maybe, maybe not. Irrelevant to present discussion about YG and GJ.

"I'll give you this: Golden Wheel Monk at the Heroes Meeting exchanged hands with Guo Jing. It was stated that Golden Wheel Monk's internal power was somewhat higher than Guo Jing due to his age, while Guo Jing's martial arts techniques are better than the Monk's. Later at the MOngolian camp, Guo Jing showed a tremendous mastery of Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms combined with the internal arts of Nine Yin, proving that he can indeed defeat Golden Wheel Monk.
Yang Guo, after having learned Heavy Ironsword faced Golden Wheel Monk at Chongyang Shrine. Technique-wise, he too was superior to Golden Wheel Monk, but once they tried to overcome each other with internal power, Yang Guo was still not as strong as Golden Wheel Monk.
Sixteen years later, Golden Wheel Monk and Yang Guo faced each other again, this time Golden Wheel Monk initially seemed superior but in the end Yang Guo could use the highest form of Palms of Sadness to defeat him. What does that prove? It proves that Yang Guo made greater progress in the martial arts but it does not prove that he is superior to Guo Jing. We did not see Guo Jing's martial arts level after the 16 years of seperation, so we can't compare. We simply don't know."

You do agree that Golden Wheel Monk's skills at the Mongolian camp is inferior to his skills 16 years later don't you? If GJ had difficulty defeating him then, GJ would not stand a chance 16 years later. And you said YG defeated the monk 16 years later. What does this show? YG at the end was better than GJ in skill. Thanks for helping me illustrate my point. You are right to say that we don't know GJ's level of skill at the end and since we don't know, we can't assume that he has improved. Like HYS, he could have been eating potato chips and watching tv during that time. For all we know, his skill level may have actually decreased.

"you sound like your dishing people off for "not having read the novel", now that's not nice."

Not at all. I don't dish anyone on the net because I don't know them.

There's no reason to take any offense because we are merely talking about fictitious characters in a storybook. So what if I say YG can defeat GJ or GJ can defeat YG?

If I tell you that my karate skills can beat the hell out of you, then you should take offense. But I am not saying that, am I? <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

[Yun_Feiyang]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by TristeCoeur:
<STRONG>

The fight in the Mongolian camp (ROCH) shows that Guo Jing has mastered the level of 18 Dragon Palms that even his sifu Hong 7 Gong could never reach/dream of (it was actually said so in the novel).

When GJ fought Ouyang Feng at the beginning of ROCH, it was when he was 33 or so. He wasn't at his peak then.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

So when was he at his peak? After eating potato chips, drinking beer and watching endless tv for 16 years?

Speculation.

[Meh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> But more importantly, its actually implied in the novel that YG can defeat GJ. Its a fact that Huang Yaoshi, Ouyang Feng and Hong Qigong are equal in kung fu. Guo Jing at his peak cannot defeat Ouyang Feng. Since YG defeated HYS, he can also defeat Ouyang Feng and thus he can also defeat GJ. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1"> "Guo Jing at his peak? You mean at the beginning of ROCH when he and Ouyang Feng fought at the rooftops? Guo Jing at that point was clearly superior. Although he could not defeat Ouyang, he did not really suffer any injury, while Ouyang Feng had to recover for quite a long time. This implies that, after the end of LOCH, Guo Jing trained the Art of Nine Yin diligently and by the time of ROCH had already become equal to the Greats. A few years later, he even surpassed them."

Maybe, maybe not. Irrelevant to present discussion about YG and GJ.

</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, this "irrelevant" point is central to your argument. <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

[Athena]

To be frank I found those remarks about potato chips, drinking beer, and watching tv everything but amusing. But then again I do not have a sense of humour.

The fact remains is the readers can read about Yang Guo and Jinlun Fawang in combat 16 years later.
However we do not see how strong Guo Jing is those 16 years later. How can you say without any conclusive evidence that Yang Guo is stronger than Guo Jing.
We know that 16 years ago, Yang Guo felt that Guo Jing's martial arts was unmatched in the realm. (After seeing several top martial arts experts Western Venom, Northern Beggar, Zhou Botong, Jinlun Fawang, Huang Yaoshi.) Masters in martial arts will not simply neglect their martial arts training, I think we can say that in those 16 years Guo Jing did continue to train and made progress. How much progress is really debatable.

Also Guo Jing's 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms has surpassed Hong Qigong. If you say that Guo Jing is equal to the 4 Greats. But the novel stated that Guo Jing surpassed Hong Qigong. That doesn't really go up. Also by the time that Guo Jing fought Ouyang Feng it was still the beginning of the novel. Even then Guo Jing was slightly stronger than Ouyang.
Even if you say that Huang lost that fight to Yang Guo, fine by me.
But Huang said when it comes fierceness of the palms only my son-in-law might be your equal.
It is common knowledge that Huang is not particular fond of Guo (and if a great master like Huang makes such a statement it is not likely that he is that far off).

Also that note about internal energy and modesty (Yang Guo was thinking to himself, not really necessary to be humble, right? But then again you would say Yang Guo is a very modest person in his thoughts, right?)

[Gin Lee]

I like Linghu Chong, so I go for him!!! <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

[Yun_Feiyang]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Athena:
<STRONG>To be frank I found those remarks about potato chips, drinking beer, and watching tv everything but amusing. But then again I do not have a sense of humour.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's too bad.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">
The fact remains is the readers can read about Yang Guo and Jinlun Fawang in combat 16 years later.
However we do not see how strong Guo Jing is those 16 years later. How can you say without any conclusive evidence that Yang Guo is stronger than Guo Jing. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but I can say that there's no conclusive evidence that Yang Guo is not stronger than Guo Jing. Your reasoning is flawed. By your reasoning, if there's no conclusive evidence that I'm the most handsome guy on earth, then you would conclude that I'm the most handsome guy on earth.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">
We know that 16 years ago, Yang Guo felt that Guo Jing's martial arts was unmatched in the realm. (After seeing several top martial arts experts Western Venom, Northern Beggar, Zhou Botong, Jinlun Fawang, Huang Yaoshi.) Masters in martial arts will not simply neglect their martial arts training, I think we can say that in those 16 years Guo Jing did continue to train and made progress. How much progress is really debatable.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, this is mere speculation. I can assure you that my Japanese karate teacher who's now 67 years old is not as good as he was 16 years ago. He was all Japan kumite (sparring) champion in 1968 but I seriously doubt that he can be all Japan anything now. Isn't it possible that GJ's skill has decreased with age?

I was speculating. Now do you see where speculation can lead?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">
Also Guo Jing's 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms has surpassed Hong Qigong. If you say that Guo Jing is equal to the 4 Greats. But the novel stated that Guo Jing surpassed Hong Qigong. That doesn't really go up. Also by the time that Guo Jing fought Ouyang Feng it was still the beginning of the novel. Even then Guo Jing was slightly stronger than Ouyang.
Even if you say that Huang lost that fight to Yang Guo, fine by me.
But Huang said when it comes fierceness of the palms only my son-in-law might be your equal.
It is common knowledge that Huang is not particular fond of Guo (and if a great master like Huang makes such a statement it is not likely that he is that far off).</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huang is a cranky and grumpy old man. What he says is not equivalent to what Jin Yong says.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">
Also that note about internal energy and modesty (Yang Guo was thinking to himself, not really necessary to be humble, right? But then again you would say Yang Guo is a very modest person in his thoughts, right?)</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have completely lost me here.

[Athena]

Never mind the final remark!

Second of all in second argument I did not state that Guo Jing was stronger than Yang Gu. You assumed that I implied but since you are not me how can you know what I was trying to point out.
Secondly you're using an everyday example here. This is fiction, Guo Jing isn't that old. At the end of ROCH he should be 50 odd years old, by your reasoning the 40 year old Zhang Sanfeng's martial arts should be greather than the 100 odd years old Zhang Sanfeng.

I''m tying to understand your reasoning here and yes there is no conclusive or even circumstantial evidence to say that Yang isn't stronger than Guo Jing. But you yourself cannot dismiss the points of other people lightly as well. Because there isn't real strong evidence to support your theory either.

[anatoly_karpov]

I think this is an endless debate <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

[TigerWong]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Yun_Feiyang:
[QB]
What do you mean? YG did not fight Zhao Bak Tung after he mastered the 'Palm of Gloom'. Zhao would not have been his match.

WYS's probably biased towards Guo Jing. Anyway, his comments are not Jin Yong's. YG did defeat HYS, its clearly stated in the novel. Have you read the novel?
[QB]</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you? Are we discussing the same edition/translation/version of ROCH? I've only read bits and pieces of ROCH but from discussions on the forums in the past, YG fighting ZBT is common knowledge. And GJ fighting OYF at the beginning of ROCH is hardly what I'd call his peak.

[Juliet]

Yun Feiyang is correct here.

Yang Guo will defeat Guo Jing at the end of ROCH. His analysis is accurate. There's no mention that Guo Jing's skills have improved since the beginning of ROCH.

GJ could not defeat the monk 16 years ago and definitely cannot defeat the monk 16 years later. Therefore, by the same token, he also cannot defeat YG.

[Ren Wo Xing]

What sort of ridiculous logic are you people coming up with? YG's martial arts abilities increased after the 16 years, GLFW's abilities increased as well, Zhang San Feng's abilities increased dramatically the older he got, DGQB's increased the older he got (let's stop here, I really don't want to get into too many examples), yet GJ, in charge of one of the most strategially important bastions, to whom martial arts is a way of keeping one's country alive, wouldn't? His martial arts improved from LOCH to beginning or ROCH, that much Jing Yong tells us, yet somehow, miraculously, in all those long years during the latter years of ROCH, when he entered his 50's, traditionally considered close to the peak of martial arts abilities, didn't improve at all? Pray tell, from where do you people come up with that sort of logic?

The response "Jing Yong doesn't tell us that GJ improved" is hardly evidence of anything at all. Some things, we should be able to deduce via common sense instead of being told.

<font size="1">[ April 01, 2003: Message edited by: Ren Wo Xing ]</font>

[Juliet]

YG's skill increased after 16 years because he developed 'the sad palms'. He was extremely depressed during the period of separation and this enabled him to use his grief to develop the 'sad palms.'

There's no mention that GJ developed any new skill since the beginning of ROCH. Besides, he was too preoccupied with other affairs like defending the country. Its extremely doubtful that he would have spent much time on his skills.
Your reasoning is based on emotions, not logic.

[bobo]

But didnt KJ combine his 18 Subdueing Dragon Palms with 9 Yum to fight Golden Wheel Monk?

[Juliet]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by bobo:
<STRONG>But didnt KJ combine his 18 Subdueing Dragon Palms with 9 Yum to fight Golden Wheel Monk?</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah...and your point is?

Guo Jing did not defeat the Golden Wheel Monk and probably will be defeated if the fight went the distance.

[Han Solo]

I read much of the discussion on this thread.
Amazing isn't it something about YG vs LHC will turn into YG vs YHS and finally into the all-ending mother of all battle YG vs GJ. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Much of this discussion has been semi-heated, Relax!!! <IMG SRC="smilies/grouphug.gif" border="0">

Well the following things seems self evident:-
1) GJ seems better than Golden Wheel Monk (GWM). Remember that GJ had to fight GWM not one on one but rather against a group of good fighters, at the same time distracted by YG. This is obviously before the 16 years of seperation. There were no fight between this two fighters after this, but at all time, GWM seems to acknowledge the superiority of GJ and avoid him if possible.

2)GWM had improved tremedously during this 16 years reaching new heights with his ?Flying Dragon and Elephant Palm?. YG also managed to learn DGKB's heavy sword and created the Sad Palm. In the final battle that resulted in the death of GWM, YG won only at the last moment, fully utilising Sad Palm only after feeling extremely sad when thinking that he might be lost to SLL.
Given that GWM at this time is at worst equal to Yi Deng, this might tell us, depending on your perspective that YG is better than GWM and thus better than the rest of the greats, or YG is lucky to win over GWM, but given his remarkable progress during this 16 years, one can extrapolate and go with the gut and say that YG will be better than GWM in the forseeable future. Certainly YG will not be found wanting when comparing techniques with GWM.

3) Is YG better than GJ? Hard to answer. But at this stage, it may be safe to say that YG and GWM have both been slightly better than the remaining greats. Certainly both of them can be no worse than Yi Deng and HYS at this stage.
Did GJ improve during this 16 years? He spend most of his time trying to defend Seung Yeung, did he have time to get more training and be better? His 9 Yin will help revitalise him and increase his inner energy even when not completely practised. So GJ will definitely be better compared to before the 16 years period.
We know that YG have all sorts of difficulty with ZBT when ZBT start to unleash the L/R techniques. GJ similarly knows this.
Thus, it might be possible that GJ is better than YG.

Thus the final standing of ROCH:-
1) GJ
2) ZBT (note ZBT either i, 2, or 3 depends on individual reader. I put GJ as first because of his knowledge of HL18palm and 9 Yin, Plus ZBT promise not to use 9 Yin)
3) YG
4) GWM
5-6) The two remaining great.

P/s: I put emphasis on the changes before and after the 16 years of separation which i think as important because both YG and GWM's kungfu improved significantly over this period.

Disclaimer: Han Solo never read the books and all this Are through reading other's opinion on web.
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[bobo]

But Mister Monk is as super powerful as you think.

It took him one whole day of fighting to kill Kau Chin Yan.
So its most likely that if he fought KJ in a long life or death battle KJ will be able to defeat GWM or at least tie him.
Cause i doubt Kau's power went up by that much in ROCH.

[someguy44]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Originally posted by Juliet:
<STRONG>YG's skill increased after 16 years because he developed 'the sad palms'. He was extremely depressed during the period of separation and this enabled him to use his grief to develop the 'sad palms.'

There's no mention that GJ developed any new skill since the beginning of ROCH. Besides, he was too preoccupied with other affairs like defending the country. Its extremely doubtful that he would have spent much time on his skills.
Your reasoning is based on emotions, not logic.</STRONG></font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know I'm going to get flame for this, but...

I don't like these debates of YG vs GJ because one can clearly tell who the readers are and who the "imposters" are. There is absolutely no evidence of one being better than the other, however, there is logic to suggest that GJ could be more powerful than YG simply because at the age of 33, he tied AYF whereas YG didn't even reached that elite stage till he was 36. When YG was 36, GJ would've been in his 50's so how can he not have improved if we go by that logic???

And GJ might've been pre-occupy with war, but going by Kenny's reasoning, GJ should've been pre-occupied with 1)the death of his freak teachers. 2)the death of his mom 3) mongol invasion of the Jurchens in which he lead a lot of the battles 4)the defense of Xiang Yiang and I forget what else... Anyway, during that whole time, he kept on improving so to say he was pre-occupy with war is flawed.

However, to me I need concrete evidence of ones' abilities and GJ didn't give me any after the 16 years, therefore I can not assume that he improved or not just like one can not assume if a fighter improves or not after the story has ended.

Btw, how come some of you novel readers are suggesting that GJ proved to be a little better than West Venom during their fight when both needed 7 days of rest to heal their injuries??? I didn't read the novel and I'll admit it, but I did read this one pharse and many comments regarding it.

Btw, Juliet and Yu F..., you two's reasonings are base on the tv series for obviously HYS didn't lose to YG when they both used their best kung fu skills. Do you think that YG's "no name palms" might even be a match for HYS's "flicking fingers"??? HYS's best kung fu is the "flicking fingers" whereas YG's best kung fu is the "sad palms" so obviously YG's best kung fu will overmatch HYS's secondary best kung fus, but YG's secondary kung fu, the "no name" palms wouldn't be a match for HYS's best kung fu, the "flicking fingers". And please don't say that YG's best kung fu is with the sword cause it's actually the sword itself that's powerful.

And Juilet, so what if YG developed the sad palms and GJ didn't. Big deal. Innovation doesn't equate to being better. GJ had more years of internal cultivation than YG so I think his inner power would be better than YG's (but that's not saying that he's the better fighter).

Anyway, when YG fought ZBT using his most powerful kung fu "the sad palms", it only drew with ZBT who used a kung fu from 9 ying and "huen ming kuen" (that's with the left right technique of course). You can also argue that ZBT was actually passed his prime and if he was in his prime, ZBT would actually be a better fighter than YG. ZBT at 100 tied with YG in their fight and showed that he was running out of energy at the end of the fight and still YG didn't think he could win. So doesn't this implied that a 70 year old ZBT would've beaten YG? Anyway, I got this little tidbit from Kenny.

[Meh]

I'm getting baffled at how some of you reached your conclusions.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Guo Jing did not defeat the Golden Wheel Monk and probably will be defeated if the fight went the distance. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which fight are you talking about? First one(matching palms), there was zero evidence to suggest that GJ is worse than GWM. The second time, GJ was ganged up. Of course he's not going to win when he's getting attacked by several masters at the same time.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">There's no mention that GJ developed any new skill since the beginning of ROCH. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

So? What does this have to do with anything? Knowing new types of kung fus doesn't mean squat unless the newer kung fu is better than the old one. Or if the user can melt them together, as GJ have with 9 Yin and the dragon palms.

Btw, it's actually arguable whether YG is better than GWM or not. He was getting his *** kicked by GWM until started to sweat over not ever being able to see XLN, which allowed him to use his sad palms at full power.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="80%" bgcolor="#dcdcdc" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="1"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10" bgcolor="#DCDCDC"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><font size="1">Its extremely doubtful that he would have spent much time on his skills.
Your reasoning is based on emotions, not logic. </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the others have been reasoning based on what's stated in the book, not on any specific emotions. I don't see you doing it. If you're going to argue either way, make sure you can cite examples from the book to back it up.