What does the verbal formula for Dog Beating Stick Technique actually accomplish?

[Ken Cheng]

In RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung taught Yeung Gor all the moves of the Beat Dog Stick Technique, but without the verbal formula, Yeung Gor was not able to use the technique's full power (he would get it shortly afterwards from Wong Yung, however). Just how did that work? Martial arts moves are physical moves, aren't they? How and why would words make any difference?

[ToOn99]

of course It would be different. Supposed H7Q taught him only swing the stick to the right, however the real formula was swing to the right and hold your breath or something + concentrate all ur balance on ur left foot or something( Just made it up ). so the result would be different.

[Candide]

The moves = maths exercises.
The verbal "formula" = mathematical concepts.

Without the concepts, one cannot fully comprehend those moves. It's a bit like Dugu 9 Swords - you have 9 main moves (to counter 9 different things) and the main concept: no stance overcoming stances + a bunch of other bullshit.

[CFT]

The TVB adaptation of RoCH in the 80's showed H7G teaching YG the moves to Beat Dog Stick just by calling out the names of the moves. It is debateable whether this is realistic or not, because many martial arts schools use the same name for different moves in order to hide their techniques if discussing them openly. There is no universal encyclopeida that says 'tiger descends from the mountains' is performed this way, and by everyone. Don't know what the novel says about this scene.

The existence of a verbal formula indicates that the Beat Dog Stick is not just a series of techniques. Peforming the BDS techniques along with the formula must result in some kind of synthesis where the result is greater than the sum of the parts. What techniques to use when, etc.

[philip]

most martial arts have a mental/verbal part anywayz....
i mean, like XL18Z...any idiot can perform the move...but how effective does it actually turn out depends on the inside

[rabadi]

Originally posted by Candide
no stance overcoming stances + a bunch of other bullshit.

I second Guo Xiang's opinion in the other thread that Candide never fails to amuse me in this wuxia forum

[SES-Eugene]

I remember one of the lines Huang Rong shouted to Yang Guo in the Manor fight with Huodu, I think its line 3,

"Why does it matter if the dog jumps over the wall?"

I wonder what significance is in that line hehe

[Laviathan]

Originally posted by SES-Eugene
I remember one of the lines Huang Rong shouted to Yang Guo in the Manor fight with Huodu, I think its line 3,

"Why does it matter if the dog jumps over the wall?"

I wonder what significance is in that line hehe

It was actually: How does one hit a dog jumping over a wall?

About the formula: in DGSD, Murong Fu wanted to challenge the Beggars Sect with his Dog Beating Stick techniques. Murong Fu only knew the techniques without the verbal transmission, so he had to make up his own theories instead. He therefore placed emphasis on speed, but Wang Yuyan later on explained that certain techniques of Dog Beating Stick should be performed as slow as possible.

The verbal formulae therefore explain the applications and methods of generating power, without them, the techniques will be just movements without usage.

The same goes for all martial arts, in wuxia as well as in real life.

[JigSta]

I imagine the 'verbal formula' would explain how too use tyour inner energy in conjunction with the moves.
ie. use 80% of your inner energy with this move, then switch too 30% for the next move...and so on

[SES-Eugene]

Originally posted by Laviathan
It was actually: How does one hit a dog jumping over a wall?
The same goes for all martial arts, in wuxia as well as in real life.

The 4th line has something to do with the dog's tail right? Sorry my Mandarin not that great hehe.

[Du Gu seeking a win]

Originally posted by Laviathan
It was actually: How does one hit a dog jumping over a wall?

About the formula: in DGSD, Murong Fu wanted to challenge the Beggars Sect with his Dog Beating Stick techniques. Murong Fu only knew the techniques without the verbal transmission, so he had to make up his own theories instead. He therefore placed emphasis on speed, but Wang Yuyan later on explained that certain techniques of Dog Beating Stick should be performed as slow as possible.

The verbal formulae therefore explain the applications and methods of generating power, without them, the techniques will be just movements without usage.

The same goes for all martial arts, in wuxia as well as in real life.

¶

I'm pondering about the Mrs. Wang & the Murong's family library. I believe their collections have only the descriptions of wugong techniques but lacking its verbal formulas (jou jue) . What do you think Lav?

[Laviathan]

Only in the case of Dog Hitting Stick I guess. It was said in the novel that the Murong and Wang libraries had fragments of the technqiues but none of its formulae.

I don't know about other martial arts, but their collection seems pretty complete to me.

[Ken Cheng]

Supposedly, knowing the accompanying "verbal formula" that goes with the Dog Beating Stick Technique's strokes makes a huge difference in the technique's effectiveness, but why is that so? I could understand if the verbal formula comprised an inner power component that augmented the power of the strikes, but it doesn't. In fact, Dog Beating Stick Technique requires no inner power to use at all.

So what does the verbal formula add to the technique that isn't innately in the strokes?

[Ren Ying Ying]

Supposedly, knowing the accompanying "verbal formula" that goes with the Dog Beating Stick Technique's strokes makes a huge difference in the technique's effectiveness, but why is that so? I could understand if the verbal formula comprised an inner power component that augmented the power of the strikes, but it doesn't. In fact, Dog Beating Stick Technique requires no inner power to use at all.

So what does the verbal formula add to the technique that isn't innately in the strokes?

Says who? It may not be as dependent on internal power as other techniques such as 18 Dragon Palms, but it's still important to know where to apply the power.

[Ken Cheng]

Says who?

Says people familiar with the novels whom I specifically asked about the subject long ago.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Says people familiar with the novels whom I specifically asked about the subject long ago.

Everything requires strength/force, love. You need some strength to at least lift and weild the stick .

It's just a matter of how much strength is required to be minimally effective.

[Ken Cheng]

Everything requires strength/force, love. You need some strength to at least lift and weild the stick .

It's just a matter of how much strength is required to be minimally effective.

Yeah, but I obviously wasn't referring to *that* level of inner power. I mean the sort of hellacious inner power associated with techniques such as Hong Lung 18 Palms, Ha Mo Gung, 1 Yeung Finger/6 Mak Divine Swords, etc.

Since no such *special* inner power is involved in the Dog Beating Stick Technique, then the verbal formula must pertain to something else...but that "something else" has never been adequately identified/explained.

[CFT]

Why is this still an issue? I thought Laviathan answered the original question? Individual physical moves without the intent/usage provided by the verbal formula means that you won't get the maximum effect in application.

[Ken Cheng]

Why is this still an issue? I thought Laviathan answered the original question? Individual physical moves without the intent/usage provided by the verbal formula means that you won't get the maximum effect in application.

Why not, though? Strokes are strokes. If inner power application isn't involved, then something else is...what is that "something else?"

[ChronoReverse]

The verbal component is what allows DBS to be chained properly. It describes when and how to execute the moves.

Examples, of course, come from the 100% translated and easily available novels.

This is where YG has learned the stances and heard the verbal formula but not had it explained to him:

With the advantage of an extra stance, Yang Guo kept on attacking with the stick technique, he used three critical stances in a row, and Huo Dou was scrambling about, using all his strength to repel the attack. However, Yang Guo did not have an ingenious fourth attack to continue the chain, he slowed down momentarily and allowed Huo Dou to counterattack, and was on the receiving end again.

The onlookers did not understand the stick technique and it went by them, Huang Rong however kept on calling out “What a pity” in secret, she couldn’t hold in her thoughts and said, “The stick returns across the ground under the clever hand, striking the twin dogs without return.” This was one of the formulae of the “Dog Beating Stick Technique”, though Yang Guo knew the stances and formulae, he didn’t know when to use them; when he heard Huang Rong recite this, he immediately brushed the stick across the ground and attacked forward without returning.

The direction and force of this stick was weird, though he used it, he didn’t know what use it had. How could it be that as soon as the stick attacked forward, it happened just at the same time as the opponent raised his fan? Huo Dou had not finished using this stance but knew something was wrong, he hurriedly jumped up and moved away.

Huang Rong continued, “When the dog leaps over the wall how can it be beaten? Quickly hit its backside and chop its tail.” This stick technique had been passed from generation to generation in the Beggar Clan. Beggars aren’t the most elegant and cultured, the words of course would be vulgar.

Similar to techniques based on the book of changes, the verbal formula allows the stances to control the enemy. It seems like a counter is always there but it's not just prediction (which is rather unreliable) but rather the sealing of choices for the opponent such that the remaining options are pruned.

Every phrase she called out was ingenious and what was needed, and along with Yang Guo’s intelligence, he was able to unleash the stances power. After he gained the upper hand many times, he didn’t wait for Huang Rong to finish the line before he continued, he just needed the first few words and was immediately able to use right technique. The power of the “Dog Beating Stick Technique” was indeed strong, even with Huo Dou’s level of martial arts, a bamboo stick was able to run circles around him, and he had no chance to attack. Everyone saw that after a few more moves, the skilled Prince of the other nation would lose. The heroes’ surprise and delight rose. The hall was filled with cheers.

Of course there are limits to this. If your opponent is so strong that your weapon is meaningless to him, then you can run into cases like where GWM simply ignored and smashed HR's bamboo staff.