how guo jing and huang rong died

[Whsie]

Wait? The 2 died in a the battle where Xian Yang fell? I remember reading Xian Yang fell, but I certaintly don't remember reading GJ and HR dieing in battle. With their Chin Gong, they could easily escape. A little help here?

[Ken Cheng]

Wait? The 2 died in a the battle where Xian Yang fell? I remember reading Xian Yang fell, but I certaintly don't remember reading GJ and HR dieing in battle. With their Chin Gong, they could easily escape. A little help here?

Their deaths were discussed in HSDS, in the chapter where Mit Jeut See Tai revealed the secret of the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre to Chow Chi Yerk. Yes, Gwok Jing and Wong Yung could have escaped the Mongols if they had wanted to, but they had already taken a vow: "if the city stands, we stand; if the city falls, we fall". They would prevent the Mongols from overruning this vital Sung outpost or die trying. Running was not an option. They defended the city to their dying breaths.

[Whsie]

Wow...., a tragic ending. Wouldn't HYS and some of the other Greats also die then?

[Ken Cheng]

Wow...., a tragic ending. Wouldn't HYS and some of the other Greats also die then?

Yes, probably...of old age. The senior Greats were already in their 80s and 90s by the end of ROCH, and another thirteen years passed between the end of the story and the Fall of Seung Yeung. The seniors would have been in their 100s. Not everybody can live to 100+ like Cheung 3 Fung.

[CC]

Yes, Gwok Jing and Wong Yung could have escaped the Mongols if they had wanted to, but they had already taken a vow: "if the city stands, we stand; if the city falls, we fall". They would prevent the Mongols from overruning this vital Sung outpost or die trying. Running was not an option. They defended the city to their dying breaths.

Stubborn way of doing things eh. Must have been GJ's idea. They could have better served the country living to fight another day.

[Ken Cheng]

Stubborn way of doing things eh. Must have been GJ's idea. They could have better served the country living to fight another day.

There wasn't going to be "another day" if Seung Yeung fell to the Mongols. This was a critical strategic location in the Mongol invasion of China. Without taking control of Seung Yeung, the Mongols had no easy viable access to the Yangtze River, which meant they could not transport their troops and supplies into the central plains quickly enough to sustain an invasion of southern China. Once Seung Yeung fell under Mongol control, however, it was just a matter of time before the Mongols would overrun what was left of the Sung territories.

Just as importantly, if the Gwok Family retreated, then they would lose all credibility. Those thousands of Chinese wulin warriors who valiantly fought alongside them would be demoralized to see their greatest heroes run away like cowards. Even if Gwok Jing and Wong Yung survived, under those conditions, they'd never be able to command the respect of the Chinese wulin or the military ever again. Their final hand had to be played at Seung Yeung.

[Siven]

They probably died because Guo Jing is too thick-headed to make a tactical retreat and Huang Rong didn't want to leave him. I think it's pretty appropriate though, and helps to bring out GJ's heroic character, I guess.

[Ken Cheng]

They probably died because Guo Jing is too thick-headed to make a tactical retreat and Huang Rong didn't want to leave him.

I don't think there was such a thing as a "tactical retreat" when it came to Seung Yeung, however. It took the Mongols almost 60 years to finally seize the fortress city and they arguably had the upper hand from start to finish. Once Seung Yeung fell to the Mongols, that was it: there was no question of the Sung being able to recapture it. The damage would have been done because the Mongols would have immediately began sending their barges of troops, horses, and supplies downriver into the heart of Gong Nam, and that would have been all she wrote for China.

[wkeej]

After the death of previous Beggar Clan leader, Yelu Qi won in the kongfu contest and became a new leader.

Hmm, does that mean that HR pass her leadership to someone?
also, can anyone tell me how did GX die? old age also?

[Ken Cheng]

Hmm, does that mean that HR pass her leadership to someone?
also, can anyone tell me how did GX die? old age also?

Wong Yung had ceded Chiefdom of the Beggar's Union to Lo Yau Gerk in the middle of ROCH after she had become pregnant with Gwok Seung and Gwok Por Lo. Sixteen years later, after Chief Lo was murdered by Fok Do, Yeh Lut Chai came the next Beggar's Union Chief (the 21st).

Gwok Seung died of unknown causes...probably in middle age rather than old age. She was only about three years older than Cheung 3 Fung, but whereas Cheung 3 Fung was still going strong through the end of HSDS, Gwok Seung had been dead for decades already.

[wkeej]

Gwok Seung died of unknown causes...probably in middle age rather than old age. She was only about three years older than Cheung 3 Fung, but whereas Cheung 3 Fung was still going strong through the end of HSDS, Gwok Seung had been dead for decades already.

sorry, OT a bit: is mie jue the second-generation leader of er-mei after gx? hence, mie jue will be able to know of GX's death?

[Ken Cheng]

sorry, OT a bit: is mie jue the second-generation leader of er-mei after gx? hence, mie jue will be able to know of GX's death?

There was one more generation between Gwok Seung and Mit Jeut See Tai. Gwok Seung was the first Ngor Mei Sect Leader. Her disciple was the second. Mit Jeut was the third, and Chow Chi Yerk, the fourth.

[yittz]

Can someone enlighten me on the geography of Xiang Yang? Where is it on the chinese map? Modern location? Terrain around it? ie hills, river?

How come Mongolia can attack DaLi without going past it?

[Ken Cheng]

Can someone enlighten me on the geography of Xiang Yang? Where is it on the chinese map? Modern location? Terrain around it? ie hills, river?

How come Mongolia can attack DaLi without going past it?

It's called Seung Fan (Xiangfan) now and is located in the Hubei Province in the very heart of China. It's the entrance to the Yangtze River Valley. I'm not sure about its terrain, but perhaps you could find it on Google Earth.

Here's some photos/info on the modern city of Xiangfan that stands on the site of ancient Seung Yeung (Xiangyang).

As for the Mongol flanking action through Dali, they took the long way around...going around the western border of the Sung Kingdom through the areas that had previously been part of the Hsi Hsia and Tubo Kingdoms (both of which had been conquered by the Mongols). This was a tough slog, but by successfully getting through it, the Mongols were able to outflank the Sung armies...attacking from the north at Seung Yeung *and* in the south through Dali.

[chibidaisuke]

Actually, throughout its history, the Mongol Empire never had a manpower advantage over the sedentary civilizations it conquered (especially China, which even then was by far the world's most populous nation). The Mongols devised many ways of defeating their enemies, but outnumbering the enemy was never an option for the Mongols.

Actually I think the Mongols did greatly outnumber their enemies on at least one occasion, and that was when they sacked Baghdad and destroyed the Abbasid Caliphate in 1258.

[wkeej]

2005-2011. Five years and this thread appears again. I read from somewhere that Mongols are nomads/farmers. As a result, they are always hungry. Hence they are always finding a place to stabilize down. Hence, all the fighting over the years.

[CFT]

It's called Seung Fan (Xiangfan) now and is located in the Hubei Province in the very heart of China. It's the entrance to the Yangtze River Valley. I'm not sure about its terrain, but perhaps you could find it on Google Earth.

It been Xiangyang again since Dec 2010: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiangyang

[wkeej]

If we look at the location of Xiangyang, the Mongols will have penetrated far into China. How to defend well then?

[PJ]

how guo jing and huang rong died

Their hearts went out of function.

[Ken Cheng]

If we look at the location of Xiangyang, the Mongols will have penetrated far into China. How to defend well then?

"China" in the early 13th Century was basically everything south of the Yangtze River, at least if one was sympathetic to the Han ethnicity and whatever government was controlled by the Han people (e.g. the Sung Dynasty). The north had been lost to foreigners since the Jurchen Jin Empire took control of the territory nearly one-hundred years earlier. During the Mongol invasions, the realistic defenders of the Sung hoped only to maintain the south. Recapturing the north was out of the question.