Why Sunflower Manual?

[Doc Kwok]

No, worse. I mean, palm winds and inner force projection is breaking the laws of physics (as we know it in 2021). But that is something which we can imagine or picture without distorting inter-spatial perception or our 3D logic. DG9J actually breaks inter-spatial perception and logic.

The problem with the arrow-breaking stance isn't in the space-bending properties that DG9J sometimes has - it is the sheer speed and reflexes that is needed to pull it off. Knocking one projectile back to its sender isn't particularly surprising (pitchers sometimes get their ball hit back into their face, after all), but to individually target each incoming projectile (out of potentially hundreds) and poking each one separately back to the sender before they hit you, is insane. You would need to be as fast as the Flash, such that the world around you appears to be practically standing still, to pull it off.

If FQY could really pull this off, then he must be orders of magnitude faster than DFBB, and would have no problems killing him in one hit!

[EdenResident]

None, but wasn't East Heretic Wong Yerk See's internal power relatively unremarkable compared to those of his peers? He obviously wasn't a weakling in internal power, but we never really hear about Wong Yerk See being noted for internal power...mostly numerous esoteric techniques.

HYS used Divine Finger Flicking to nullify YG's Sad Palms. I don't think anyone with shitty, or even average, internals could do that. Baldie was also impressed (and scared) when HYS shot that pebble from hundreds of meter away like a sniper.

[CC]

The problem with the arrow-breaking stance isn't in the space-bending properties that DG9J sometimes has - it is the sheer speed and reflexes that is needed to pull it off. Knocking one projectile back to its sender isn't particularly surprising (pitchers sometimes get their ball hit back into their face, after all), but to individually target each incoming projectile (out of potentially hundreds) and poking each one separately back to the sender before they hit you, is insane. You would need to be as fast as the Flash, such that the world around you appears to be practically standing still, to pull it off.

If FQY could really pull this off, then he must be orders of magnitude faster than DFBB, and would have no problems killing him in one hit!

I agree with you on the speed aspect needed but I was referring more to the 'surprising' position and sword attack gimmicks as defying inter-spatial perception.

As for the knocking of projectiles back, yeah I dont see even DFBB level speed being able to deflect _hundreds_ of projectiles back to the sender at the same time. The only way I can envision it would be using some blanket Qi wave to send bounce them. Kinda like what MRF did to his broken blade pieces after DY broke it.

[Doc Kwok]

I agree with you on the speed aspect needed but I was referring more to the 'surprising' position and sword attack gimmicks as defying inter-spatial perception.

As for the knocking of projectiles back, yeah I dont see even DFBB level speed being able to deflect _hundreds_ of projectiles back to the sender at the same time. The only way I can envision it would be using some blanket Qi wave to send bounce them. Kinda like what MRF did to his broken blade pieces after DY broke it.

If I were asked to come up with an arrow-breaking stance, I would probably come up with something like what the Mongolian mercenaries did against XLN - wave the weapons around rapidly to form an impenetrable shield. Plus, to give it a Dugu spin, I would have all the movements angled such that the sword forms a sort of parabolic mirror with the focus at the sender, so that incoming projectiles would tend to fly back towards them (but without needing to focus on each one individually!).

Unfortunately, Jinyong has cooked his own goose here by specifically describing how this stance works - by 100s, 1000s, 10000s of small thrusts aimed at individual projectiles. I wonder if he realised later just how completely overpowered this was, since he never mentions this again. e.g. If LHC executed this when DFBB charged at him, aiming at say 100 widely separated spots on his body (instead of just 1 single counter-thrust), DFBB would have gone down instantly...

[Ren Wo Xing]

Now to be fair, lets swap their encounters.

Put ZWJ against all the opponents Goldie had to fight. How do you think it would turn out.

Put Goldie against ZWJ's opponents. Might be quite a curbstomp.

Honestly, I suspect ZWJ would do better than 'Goldie' did. I don't see ZWJ being taken out by the YG/XLN Jade Maiden Sword, for example, while I suspect Goldie wouldn't be able to match ZWJ's performance against the three Du-generation monks. But I can see an argument for the opposite side as well, which is why I said ZWJ is a close second.

[Ren Wo Xing]

But you just proved my point. People with abundant internals and shitty techniques can still be at Great or very near-Great level, like Baldie and ZWJ.

Now, flip that around. People with great techniques and shitty internals like LHC, well, are still mediocre at best.

Name one Great-level fighter with great techniques and shitty internals.

We're getting awfully close to a Huashan Qi branch vs Sword branch debate here, aren't we? 😂

I do have to point out a few things though.

First, the fighters we generally classify as 'Great' or 'near-Great' generally have both good internals and good technical skills - even JLGS had his 'Five Wheels' technique, which was pretty decent. So asking for a Great-level fighter with great techniques and shitty internals makes just as little sense as asking for one with shitty techniques and great internals. Note that in my post, I was talking about combat ability, which was in direct response to your comment about need for sparring.

Now, that being said, we have multiple examples of nominally 'sub-Great' fighters who took out fighters with Great-level internals or at least matched them. Mie Jue thrashed 9 Yang-powered ZWJ with ease before he had learned QKDNY (which is a hybrid technique/internal energy unlocking skill), early-ROCH Huang Rong fought handily against Ouyang Feng for a period of time, and XLN was overwhelming and panicking JLGS during their fight in late ROCH. While I don't have a full count, I do think that throughout Jinyong's novels, we see more examples of people with weak internal but good techniques beating people with strong internal and weak techniques, than the other way around. XAJH, of course, has the most examples of all - which goes to my original post, that it is this way narratively because the protagonist is focused on techniques.

That said, I think there are quite a few examples in Jinyong that strong internal energy generally doesn't protect much against edged weapons; the most classic example is how Chen Xuanfeng pretty much tanked and ignored all of the attacks from the Jiangnan Freaks, except the sword of Han Xiaoying - and of course, he ended up being killed by Guo Jing (admittedly, a very special case). And, as it just so happens, the sword is the most commonly seen weapon for executing techniques so there you go.

To be clear, I'm not arguing for the primacy of technique (although all else being equal, I do think it has the edge over internals) - but I definitely think that internals aren't superior either.

[Ren Wo Xing]

If I were asked to come up with an arrow-breaking stance, I would probably come up with something like what the Mongolian mercenaries did against XLN - wave the weapons around rapidly to form an impenetrable shield. Plus, to give it a Dugu spin, I would have all the movements angled such that the sword forms a sort of parabolic mirror with the focus at the sender, so that incoming projectiles would tend to fly back towards them (but without needing to focus on each one individually!).

Unfortunately, Jinyong has cooked his own goose here by specifically describing how this stance works - by 100s, 1000s, 10000s of small thrusts aimed at individual projectiles. I wonder if he realised later just how completely overpowered this was, since he never mentions this again. e.g. If LHC executed this when DFBB charged at him, aiming at say 100 widely separated spots on his body (instead of just 1 single counter-thrust), DFBB would have gone down instantly...

I actually agree with both you and CC completely here - the projectile-breaking stance never made any sense at all. I also agree with you that I think even Jinyong himself realized it, as in the fight to save Xiang Wentian when he was ambushed, Linghu Chong used the mace-breaking stance, the spear-breaking stance, and the palm-breaking stance - the most used in any chapter. However, he was not shown as using the projectile-breaking stance when dozens of hidden weapons were shot at them - instead, Xiang Wentian first caught/reversed the initial wave of attacks, then used a human shield to block the attacks. This would've been the perfect time to show off the projectile-breaking stance, but Jinyong declined to do so - which to me strongly suggests that he realized how bullshit it really was.

Similarly, when they were ambushed by arrows at Shaolin in the quest to rescue RYY, we see LHC using the arrow-breaking stance to defend himself against the arrows, but nothing about sending those arrows back to the shooters - and at this point he was quite familiar with DG9J and also had very strong internals thanks to XXDF.

Overall, I agree that Jinyong realized that the arrow-breaking stance (as described) was way too overpowered, and so he nerfed it hardcore in the rest of the book. Unfortunately, he left the reality-breaking usage of it against the masked martial artists in the ambush against Huashan, which prevents us from simply saying that FQY was just exaggerating entirely. Overall, it detracts from the believability of DG9S and is one of the biggest reasons people argue that DG9J is so overpowered as to be completely bullshit sometimes 😂

I think the only way the arrow-breaking stance works is if we combine what CC said re 'qi waves' and the way that DGQB was described in ROCH - that anything or nothing could be his sword. Basically, that at the highest level of DG9J mastery, the user could simultaneously unleash waves of tiny, non-physical 'qi swords' to block and reverse thousands of arrow attacks. It's still broken to the max, but at least it would make some sense, as opposed to unleashing thousands of physical strikes.

[ChanceEncounter]

But you just proved my point. People with abundant internals and shitty techniques can still be at Great or very near-Great level, like Baldie and ZWJ.

Now, flip that around. People with great techniques and shitty internals like LHC, well, are still mediocre at best.

Name one Great-level fighter with great techniques and shitty internals.

I don't know why this is still a thing, to be honest.

Both JLGS and ZWJ have great level techniques at their peak. It's not just them having incredible internal and not knowing how to throw a punch. Maybe XZ post-WYZ is the better example of that.

You could argue they probably lack the last little bit of cunning/fighting instinct that separates two people of relatively equivalent ability, but not that their techniques are lackluster. ZWJ mastered multiple great-level arts. ZBT was unable to find any flaws in JLGS's technique.

Realistically, to reach the pinnacle of martial arts you need to have both elite technique and elite internal.

[EdenResident]

I don't know why this is still a thing, to be honest.

Both JLGS and ZWJ have great level techniques at their peak. It's not just them having incredible internal and not knowing how to throw a punch. Maybe XZ post-WYZ is the better example of that.

You could argue they probably lack the last little bit of cunning/fighting instinct that separates two people of relatively equivalent ability, but not that their techniques are lackluster. ZWJ mastered multiple great-level arts. ZBT was unable to find any flaws in JLGS's technique.

Realistically, to reach the pinnacle of martial arts you need to have both elite technique and elite internal.

With regards to ZWJ, I was just following the forum's groupthink as to not create another argument. For me personally, I consider ZWJ to be around level 80 after the fight with the Du monks. The Du monks' formation is certainly better than JLGS and it should be at least a 78 level.

As for internals vs technique, here's a fun hypothetical. Jue Yuan vs. LHC (before learning XXDF). Fight to the death. Who would win? JY could use any weapon if he chooses to.

[reydge]

Haha

I don't see any thing funny on there

Didn't understand the point of your question. My answer was to prove the difference between DG9S and other conventional arts. Conventional arts you can take to the highest level even when training in isolation as proven by the LOCH & ROCH Greats. DG9S very nature does not allow this. Which BTW you never disproved.

After GJ learned 18DSP completely did he improve technically on 18DSP or he just improve in inner power?

You can go to the cave for 30 years to practice 9SOD or other technical MAs
But you need to test it then you can fix or upgrade it
But in inner power base MAs 95% of the concentration is on inner power and 5% in technique in the beginning and after that it is all about inner power and if you want to improve on them you should improve in inner power
F.E. ZWJ
How many years he practice taichies?
He had strong inner power base and after some advice from ZSF the way he used them; it seem that he has practiced them for 20 years
but
Can ZWJ do the same with a technical MA?For this question we have a good example in Ode To Gallantry.In chapter 7 of OTG we have a situation that some how SPT manage to learn Swordplay Technique of the Snow Mountain School and after that we saw SPT,BWJ v SQ,MR.But the result for SPT was not the same as ZWJ although SPT's inner power level was much much higher than ZWJ.Why?Because the different between a inner power base MA and a technical base MA.
This is the point

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I don't see any thing funny on there



After GJ learned 18DSP completely did he improve technically on 18DSP or he just improve in inner power?

You can go to the cave for 30 years to practice 9SOD or other technical MAs
But you need to test it then you can fix or upgrade it
But in inner power base MAs 95% of the concentration is on inner power and 5% in technique in the beginning and after that it is all about inner power and if you want to improve on them you should improve in inner power
F.E. ZWJ
How many years he practice taichies?
He had strong inner power base and after some advice from ZSF the way he used them; it seem that he has practiced them for 20 years
but
Can ZWJ do the same with a technical MA?For this question we have a good example in Ode To Gallantry.In chapter 7 of OTG we have a situation that some how SPT manage to learn Swordplay Technique of the Snow Mountain School and after that we saw SPT,BWJ v SQ,MR.But the result for SPT was not the same as ZWJ although SPT's inner power level was much much higher than ZWJ.Why?Because the different between a inner power base MA and a technical base MA.
This is the point

Still no idea what you mean with with GJ? Are you saying his completion of 18DSP palm was a technique improvement rather than a inner power improvement. Bit of a strange question as 18DSP palm is an external technique aim to maximize the power one already has rather than directly increase inner power. So by completing 18DSP he improved his usage of power.

Your comment about DG9S is exactly my point. You can study it in isolation for however many years, but you cannot reach its peak in isolation. You must go out and challenge people which goes back to my original point.

ZXJ incredible comprehension comes from 乾坤大挪移 allowing him to perceive the flow of energy, thus allowing him to use Tai Chi sword a technical base Martial Arts within a couple of hours.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I don't know why this is still a thing, to be honest.

Both JLGS and ZWJ have great level techniques at their peak. It's not just them having incredible internal and not knowing how to throw a punch. Maybe XZ post-WYZ is the better example of that.

You could argue they probably lack the last little bit of cunning/fighting instinct that separates two people of relatively equivalent ability, but not that their techniques are lackluster. ZWJ mastered multiple great-level arts. ZBT was unable to find any flaws in JLGS's technique.

Realistically, to reach the pinnacle of martial arts you need to have both elite technique and elite internal.

Xu Zhu is actually a great example! During much of his time with TSTL, he had much higher internal than her due to her reversion but she had much better technique, and she completely bullied the man 😂

[Ren Wo Xing]

With regards to ZWJ, I was just following the forum's groupthink as to not create another argument. For me personally, I consider ZWJ to be around level 80 after the fight with the Du monks. The Du monks' formation is certainly better than JLGS and it should be at least a 78 level.

As for internals vs technique, here's a fun hypothetical. Jue Yuan vs. LHC (before learning XXDF). Fight to the death. Who would win? JY could use any weapon if he chooses to.

The problem here is that before XXDF, LHC was at the verge of death...

[reydge]

Still no idea what you mean with with GJ? Are you saying his completion of 18DSP palm was a technique improvement rather than a inner power improvement. Bit of a strange question as 18DSP palm is an external technique aim to maximize the power one already has rather than directly increase inner power. So by completing 18DSP he improved his usage of power.

Your comment about DG9S is exactly my point. You can study it in isolation for however many years, but you cannot reach its peak in isolation. You must go out and challenge people which goes back to my original point.

ZXJ incredible comprehension comes from 乾坤大挪移 allowing him to perceive the flow of energy, thus allowing him to use Tai Chi sword a technical base Martial Arts within a couple of hours.

look
In certain point of LOCH , GJ learned all of 18DSP OK
After that point till end of ROCH did he improve technically ?
Or he only increase the amount inner power in his body?
If you have any thing related to technique, you need to try it even if you were ZSF and the MA were tichies(semi technical MAs)
You should know that the tichies are semi technical MAs but because the the rate is 70 to 30 for inner power I called them inner power base and again an excellent inner power foundation (9 yang + GUS) allowed ZWJ to executed the Tichies very well.

[EdenResident]

The problem here is that before XXDF, LHC was at the verge of death...

Ok let's say LHC after learning DG9J and without the internal qis issue, ie., completely healthy.

That LHC vs. Jue Yuan. Who would win?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

look
In certain point of LOCH , GJ learned all of 18DSP OK
After that point till end of ROCH did he improve technically ?
Or he only increase the amount inner power in his body?
If you have any thing related to technique, you need to try it even if you were ZSF and the MA were tichies(semi technical MAs)
You should know that the tichies are semi technical MAs but because the the rate is 70 to 30 for inner power I called them inner power base and again an excellent inner power foundation (9 yang + GUS) allowed ZWJ to executed the Tichies very well.

With GJ at the end of LOCH he had 9 Yin which was his primary source of inner cultivation which did improve to keep up with the Greats. Technique wise he also improved as he merged the various external Martial Arts fluently moving between them effortlessly. You can see his improved technique in the beginning of ROCH when he broke the large Big Dipper Formation or when he ran the Mongol gauntlet. So to Sum up he improved in both inner and technique and 18DSP was only one of his influences.
Yes you need to try all techniques in the real world but DG9S is the only that makes it a necessity in order to reach its peaks. Remember DFBB spent a decade in isolation and his Martial Arts was al most unbeatable.

[pannonian]

Ok let's say LHC after learning DG9J and without the internal qis issue, ie., completely healthy.

That LHC vs. Jue Yuan. Who would win?

One might imagine LHC by a mile, but let's not forget how 9 yang was written. The text for 9 yang was hidden in between the lines of an ordinary scripture. In other words, Jue Yuan found 9 yang in a surprising position.

[reydge]

With GJ at the end of LOCH he had 9 Yin which was his primary source of inner cultivation which did improve to keep up with the Greats. Technique wise he also improved as he merged the various external Martial Arts fluently moving between them effortlessly. You can see his improved technique in the beginning of ROCH when he broke the large Big Dipper Formation or when he ran the Mongol gauntlet. So to Sum up he improved in both inner and technique and 18DSP was only one of his influences.
Yes you need to try all techniques in the real world but DG9S is the only that makes it a necessity in order to reach its peaks. Remember DFBB spent a decade in isolation and his Martial Arts was al most unbeatable.

I don't speak about fight strategies or various MAs of GJ
I speak about one certain MA,the 18DSP of GJ
Did GJ's 18DSP technique part improve?Did anything left after he learn it completely?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Ok let's say LHC after learning DG9J and without the internal qis issue, ie., completely healthy.

That LHC vs. Jue Yuan. Who would win?

Honestly, I think LHC would win without too much difficulty. If it wasn't for ZSF's interference, it's pretty clear that He Zudao would've defeated Jueyuan - and He Zudao is nowhere close to being as strong as LHC.

[EdenResident]

Honestly, I think LHC would win without too much difficulty. If it wasn't for ZSF's interference, it's pretty clear that He Zudao would've defeated Jueyuan - and He Zudao is nowhere close to being as strong as LHC.

No, that's completely untrue. HZD couldn't do jackshit to JY. He even lost his sword. ZSF interfered out of fear for his master but that was unnecessary. After HZD lost the sword, the match would have likely ended in a draw.

As for LHC, I, too, think he would beat JY as is. However, LHC did have 20+ years of some internal training. Though it was mediocre, his internal was not a complete zero like JY's technique. If we give JY 5 years of training in some basic Shaolin techniques, things would be more even.

Look, I don't want to drag this into another pointless debate. I understand your point and even in real life, having good techniques can help you overcome physical disadvantages. I would agree with that.