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Thread: Dugu Qiubai: did Jin Yong mess up his story?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    We don't even know if it's the same person. They seem to have less in common than they do have in common.

    In ROCH (and in every novel except SPW), Dugu Qiubai (and Jin Yong) consistently placed internal energy above technique. Only in SPW did this concept diverge, and that's why you get a different version of Dugu Qiubai that contradicts what was written about Dugu Qiubai in ROCH.
    they had at least 2 1/2 things in common: their "title", their focus on swords, and their desire to be defeating...which pretty much summarizes dugu qiu bai.

    i don't see why the "ROCH" dugu qiubai had placed internal energy above techique. who knows what his "wooden sword" and "no sword" stage really refered to? i doubt even JY knows himself

    secondly, even JY did not place internal energy above technique. don't forget, even though YG believe that "brute force + heavy iron sword" can almost be invincible, he still thought night and day over how to weild the sword, which strokes work better than others. that shows technique (no matter how simple) is highly essential even in the pressence of great power.

  2. #22
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    I'm talking more about the martial arts. All we learned in ROCH were a few vague descriptions of DGQB's progress in swordsmanship. In SPW, we actually got to see why his skills with a sword were so fearsome. I think DG9J fits in perfectly with DGQB's ROCH stages since it's a marital arts that progresses as one builds knowledge and experience. Also,since SPW was written later, it's safe to assume that the DGQB portrayed in SPW is closer to JY's vision for that character.
    We also saw how freaking awesome is the Heavy Iron Sword in ROCH. In fact, I would say it's more impressive than Dugu 9 Swords. Yang Guo with a month of HIS + snake bladder training went from not being a match for the any of the Mongolian mercenaries to being able to DEFEAT THEM IN ONE STANCE! Can Linghu Chong defeat Xiaoxiang Zi in one stance? Maybe in 20 years, but certainly not in his story. Dugu 9 Swords may have more details than the HIS, but Dugu Qiubai's ENTIRE martial arts progression is described in greater detail in ROCH.

    In fact, what portrayal of Dugu Qiubai is there in SPW? Almost nothing! It only mentioned Dugu Qiubai as a legendary figure along with his Dugu 9 Swords, but it had NO MENTION of anything else. How do we know what Dugu Qiubai was like in his 20s, 30s, and 40s? That came from ROCH, not SPW! About the only additional information we gain from SPW is a new technique called Dugu 9 Swords. But that has more to do with the technique itself than Dugu Qiubai the man.

    And like I said, Heavy Iron Sword is even more impressive than Dugu 9 Swords.

    I think you should look at how JY's theories progressed in terms of the order that his books were written. His early works had relatively simple battles where the more powerful character always won. In DGSD, we started to see XF winning against overwhelming odds by using superior strategy. In SPW, there was a even bigger emphasis on factors other than raw power. It wasn't a matter of JY suddenly contradicting himself, his theories and writing simply became more sophisticated. Personally, I found the battles in his later works to be much more exciting because they weren't just like Dragonball battles where the guy with more power automatically wins.
    First of all, it's not true AT ALL that Jin Yong's early novels almost always had the most powerful characters win. In ALL of Jin Yong's novels, regardless of when they were written, they were ALWAYS biased towards the protagonist, period. Do I need to count how many times Yang Guo and Guo Jing defeated more powerful foes, while Zhang Wuji got striked down by less powerful foes? (OK, so Zhang Wuji is the one exception where Jin Yong was biased against the main character)

    Nothing changed in JIn Yong's later novels. He's still heavily biased against the protagonists. You see Xiao Feng described as being able to defeat greater opponents, and Linghu Chong doing the same, but you'll never see a villain or a side character having this ability. But in fact, EVERY ONE of Jin Yong's main characters, as long as they had proper martial arts training (so minus Duan Yu, Xuzhu, Shi Potian, Zhang Wuji), they are able to defeat or match or outsmart more powerful foes.

    It's the same thing with DGQB. JY just made him into a more fleshed out character. We got to see what simplicity is superior to complexity really means. The things we learn about DGQB in SPW actually make a lot of sense. If all DGQB did was continually increased his internal power, then what makes him so different from the other greats that didn't wield swords?
    So you think that by increasing internal energy, Dugu Qiubai would not be very distinguishable. But ask yourself, how distinctive is using the concept of simplicity overcoming complexity? All of the DGSD Elites knew this. ZHang Sanfeng, Zhang Wuji, and all the users of Taiji knew this... XL18Z which was created in Tang dynasty knew this. So what's the big deal?

    SPW is essential to understanding why DGQB was able to dominate Wulin with his sword. If anything, it makes more sense to ignore ROCH when talking about DGQB. JY's answer to question about YG's swordsmanship implied that not much of DGQB' advanced sword skills were portrayed in ROCH.
    I'm not saying Dugu Qiubai having fathered Dugu 9 Swords doesn't make sense, but I do personally see some inconsistencies in the portrayal of Dugu Qiubai in ROCH vs in SPW< which was the heart of this topic. So if you will, please provide a logical answer to this simple question:

    Why was there no mention of Dugu 9 Swords in ROCH, and why there's no mention of any of Dugu Qiubai's life-long progression in SPW.

    Please do not give me an answer resembling "Jin Yong hadn't thought of Dugu 9 Swords in ROCH..." We can do better than that.

    My logical answer is that Dugu Qiubai NEVER used Dugu 9 Swords in his pre-40s. I believe that if he did, it would have been written on his tomb which documents his life. I believe that Dugu Qiubai invented Dugu 9 Swords AFTER he reached the ultimate no-sword stage, and that he NEVER used it when he still needed a sword. It's probably more believable to imagine that Dugu 9 Swords was a product of a true master (post-40s Dugu) rather than one of a learner (pre-40s Dugu), since it is so wonderful that is' hard to imagine anyone otehr than a true master could invent it.

    So what's the fuss with my assertion? Well, if it's true, that would contradict Feng Qingyang's statement about Dugu QIubai having used Dugu 9 Swords in his prime against various members of wulin. And that, my friends, is why we're having this debate about whether Jin Yong f*cked up Dugu Qiubai's character across multiple novels, which I believe JIn Yong is guilty of this time.
    Last edited by PJ; 03-14-08 at 05:54 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  3. #23
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    It's probably more believable to imagine that Dugu 9 Swords was a product of a true master (post-40s Dugu) rather than one of a learner (pre-40s Dugu), since it is so wonderful that is' hard to imagine anyone otehr than a true master could invent it.
    In fact, I would like to draw more attention to this matter. Zhang Sanfeng was described as the BEST martial artist in Jin Yong universe, and we know that has a lot to do with his ability to invent martial arts. Zhang Sanfeng was able to invent Taiji at the age of 100. If Dugu Qiubai invented Dugu 9 Swords while he was still busy fighting the martial world, that would mean that Dugu Qiubai invented Dugu 9 Swords in his 20s or 30s.

    Clearly, I do not think this is possible.
    Dugu Qiubai is good, but not that good.
    If he can invent Dugu 9 Swords in his 30s, and consequently outinvent the greatest martial artist Zhang Sanfeng's greatest invention by 70 years, I don't think he would be so pleased to meet Ren Woxing in his 40s
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  4. #24
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    they had at least 2 1/2 things in common: their "title", their focus on swords, and their desire to be defeating...which pretty much summarizes dugu qiu bai.
    Title?
    As far as I know, Dugu Qiubai was NEVER called the Demonic Swordsman in SPW.

    And the names of their actual techniques have zero in common.

    i don't see why the "ROCH" dugu qiubai had placed internal energy above techique. who knows what his "wooden sword" and "no sword" stage really refered to? i doubt even JY knows himself
    We know what Yang Guo thoguht it was supposed to refer to.
    And since thats the only thing we can go by, we have to ask ourselves: did Jin Yong say that just to tell us a lie? Or did Jin Yong mean it to be some information for us. I believe the latter.

    secondly, even JY did not place internal energy above technique.
    He most certainly did, and I remember we had a lengthy disagreement on this previously. Time to dig that up.

    don't forget, even though YG believe that "brute force + heavy iron sword" can almost be invincible, he still thought night and day over how to weild the sword, which strokes work better than others. that shows technique (no matter how simple) is highly essential even in the pressence of great power.
    Technique is stressed--I'm not saying it's not--but internal energy is stressed even more.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  5. #25
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    My logical answer is that Dugu Qiubai NEVER used Dugu 9 Swords in his pre-40s. I believe that if he did, it would have been written on his tomb which documents his life. I believe that Dugu Qiubai invented Dugu 9 Swords AFTER he reached the ultimate no-sword stage, and that he NEVER used it when he still needed a sword. It's probably more believable to imagine that Dugu 9 Swords was a product of a true master (post-40s Dugu) rather than one of a learner (pre-40s Dugu), since it is so wonderful that is' hard to imagine anyone otehr than a true master could invent it.
    This, of course, is assuming an integrated version of ONE Dugu Qiubai.
    It's kind of forcing the issue though, since I'm sure JIn Yong had different
    visions for Dugu Qiubai's arts in SPW than in ROCH, which accounts for
    the difference in descriptions. And yet, people still don't want to admit
    that Jin Yong completely royally f*cked up Dugu Qiubai's character across the 2 novels,
    creating several inconsistencies and making them look like 1 person sometimes
    and 2 different people other times.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  6. #26
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    If YG's HIS stage really were the same as DGQB's, then I would guess that DG9J was after that stage.
    Firstly, I think I've already established my opinion that it makes no sense for Dugu 9 Swords to exist in the ROCH Dugu Qiubai's martial arts progression, because:

    1. There was no mention of Dugu 9 Swords anywhere on Dugu Qiubai's tomb.

    2. When Jin Yong wrote ROCH (and the first glimpse at Dugu Qiubai), everything that Jin Yong wrote before, Jin Yong has ALWAYS (and read: A L W A Y S) emphasized internal energy over technique. And read again: that's A-L-W-A-Y-S emphasized internal energy over technique. Even when Xiao Longnu triumphed over internal energy with technique, Jin Yong tells us that if Golden Wheel Monk would have attacked with all his might, Xiao Longnu would have been crushed. This is solid proof that even in the most glorious case of fanciful technique, internal energy wins.

    And if you think technique can beat internal energy, I invite you to find a technique that can beat Xuzhu at the end of DGSD or the Sweeper Monk.

    Therefore, given the fact that there's no account of Dugu 9 Swords in Dugu Qiubai's ROCH documentary repository, and that Dugu 9 Swords' theories strongly contradict Jin Yong's philosophy when he wrote ROCH, I don't see any logical reason why Dugu 9 Swords could fit into ROCH Dugu Qiubai's martial arts progress. Fitting it in there would just be forcing the issue (an issue created by Jin Yong's inconsistencies, may I add).

    But OK, so we want to force the issue. Be my guest.

    Dugu 9 Swords is after Heavy Iron Sword? Are you guys f-n kidding me? If we believe that Dugu Qiubai's progression was towards formlessness and weaponless, then Heavy Iron Sword is certainly more formless than Dugu 9 Swords. It has NO TECHNIQUE and NO STANCE. But Dugu 9 Swords does. By its name, it comes with a set of 9 stances. When Linghu Chong blinded the 15 men, he actually had to think about the Missile-Breaking Stance and then execute it. According to Heavy Iron Sword theory, you would have just thrust the sword out without resorting to a specific stance.

    Does it make sense that Dugu Qiubai would reach the stage of HIS, where it's stanceless and simple, and then go back to a stage where he would still need to use stances, which is Dugu 9 Swords? I don't think so.

    Dugu 9 Swords is a MUCH MORE COMPLICATED style than the Heavy Iron Sword. Going from HIS to DG9J would be going backwards in Dugu Qiubai's quest to become formless and stanceless. If simplicity is to overcome complexity, then certainly, Dugu 9 Swords will be no match for the simpler Heavy Iron Sword.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  7. #27
    Senior Member sarakoth's Avatar
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    Maybe Dugu Qiubai is a title given by some godly figure to multiple people across time!

  8. #28
    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    If simplicity is to overcome complexity, then certainly, Dugu 9 Swords will be no match for the simpler Heavy Iron Sword.
    Then I don't get how Jin Yong said that Yang Guo is not as good a swordsman as Linghu Chong...

  9. #29
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    HIS isn't formless. If anything it's OBVIOUS in form since there's only the nine basic sword strokes available (nothing to do with DG9J incidentally).

    And if you're going to talk complexity, technically DG9J has precisely ONE stance for dealing with swords. There's complexity within simplicity and simplicity in the complex. That's even more epitome that merely simple.



    HIS can't work in RL because it's too predictable. In fact, I really can't see how it could actually work even in JY's story context. Just because you can do an unstoppable stab doesn't make it invincible. Some of the opponents that young GJ couldn't defeat had no way to stop his HL18P (incomplete) either. But there's a myriad of ways to deal with that (conveniently called Martial Art Techniques) such that GJ was still unable to win.

    Formlessness isn't really no stance. That's just philosophy. What is really means is leaving nothing for the opponent to attack/break. The adaptability is inherent in the practitioner instead. But to do that you need understanding, which is why the DG9J theories provide. It gives you the practical theory of how things work and gives you the framework (the initial stance) to begin to deal with it. After that it's up to the practitioner's comprehension to come up with actual physical methods to attack.

    This also conveniently explains what happens when two formless master meet up. Instead of a spatial distortion erasing everything while Rifts (TM) open up in space, the master with greater comprehension wins (usually at least, since unless their levels are far apart, fights aren't 100% determinate).



    Going back to the HIS, there was a particular quote in Rurouni Kenshin that really sums it up well. I'll paraphrase it a bit: "Your sword has unbelievable power and you wield its tremendous weight fluidly. But it has a weakness. The paths it can follow are straightforward and I can easily read it. You cannot defeat me."




    [NOTE] I'm not arguing for or against a single DGQB. I'm just making some notes about DG9J and HIS
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-14-08 at 08:18 PM.

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    Just because the swordstrokes can be read doesn't mean it can easily be defeated. The attacking principle of the HIS seems to be to take the most direct route, and damn the consequences. This was seen in the fight with Ci'en, where he used his iron palms to counter, presumably thinking to force YG into an exchange. Instead, the sword came on, barely hindered by the palms, and Ci'en was forced to defend. This would seem to be the mutual destruction aspect of DG9J as displayed by LHC, taken to the utmost degree, with the advantage of a superior weapon that's very good at conducting internal energy.

    From the logical descriptions, the only advantage DG9J has over the HIS would be when there are lots of attacks to be dealt with, a la the missile breaking stance. Yet even in this situation, we've seen YG wield the HIS extremely fluently with swift changes in direction, when he broke both Xiaoxiangzi's arms. And when he managed to control his internal energy in a wooden sword as he did with the HIS, even this theoretical limit would be nulled.

    I don't really see how DG9J theory is more sophisticated than the HIS. The strokes of the HIS are no more than the movements of the arm, which will still exist, formlessness or not, as long as the arm is still attached to the body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    1. There was no mention of Dugu 9 Swords anywhere on Dugu Qiubai's tomb..
    Thanks for making such in-depth arguments. I'm very busy this weekend though so for now, I'll just respond to a few of your points.

    I think you're putting too much emphasis on what was written on DGQB's tomb. Firstly,everything about DGQB in ROCH is very vague. All we knew was which sword that DGQB used in each stage of his career. There's no reason to doubt that he could have used DG9J throughout his career. As suggested in SPW, DG9J is a set of martial arts that grows along with the knowledge and experience of its user.

    Also, why isn't it acceptable to think that DG9J wasn't mentioned in ROCH because JY hadn't thought of it yet? It's a perfectly reasonable answer. We can't just pretend that SPW wasn't written years after ROCH. In fact, I believe that readers too often neglect the chronology of JY's works when discussing about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Does it make sense that Dugu Qiubai would reach the stage of HIS, where it's stanceless and simple, and then go back to a stage where he would still need to use stances, which is Dugu 9 Swords? I don't think so.

    Dugu 9 Swords is a MUCH MORE COMPLICATED style than the Heavy Iron Sword. Going from HIS to DG9J would be going backwards in Dugu Qiubai's quest to become formless and stanceless. If simplicity is to overcome complexity, then certainly, Dugu 9 Swords will be no match for the simpler Heavy Iron Sword.
    Isn't formlessness the highest state of martial arts? If so, it makes sense for DG9J to be complicated. DG9J is simple yet complicated, like most advanced quasi-zen theories in martial arts. If the highest form of swordsmanship means just striking out with a lot of interanl power, why even bother to pratice with a sword?

    Also, why do you think that Heavy Iron Sword is a formless martial arts simply because it came with no guidelines? JY said that YG didn't have access to DGQB's full techniques, which means that YG's HIS stage very likely wasn't like DGQB's HIS stage. YG basically had to rely on the Condor and himself to think of what DGQB's swordfighting skills were like.

    What's the chance that YG created the same sword skills as DGQB simply because of the phrase "simplicity overcomes complexity"? I say it's almost nil and JY's interview confirmed it. YG learned a lot about DGQB's internal power cultivation techniques but basically nothing about DGQB's sword skills.

    Based on what you're saying, I could just hand someone a heavy sword without teaching him any stances and become the greatest teacher ever. Just because something is simpler doesn't mean that it's automatically a higher form of MA.

  12. #32
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    The sword itself limits what you can do. A straight stab is both the shortest and the longest path to your opponent.

    It's the shortest in the physical sense; a straight line between two points. But what does it matter if I simply half-step to avoid it? "AHA!" you say, "I'll just turn it into a slash." But that's already two steps AND the sword is heavy (not to mention blunt) so it CAN'T be turned easily assuming you actually put power in the first blow (which you would since it's suppose to be simple right?). Philosophically, it becomes the longest path being that it doesn't ever reach the opponent.

    This is the simplest illustration. It's also why someone without any martial arts, in the words of FCY, can be knocked down easily. It is the reason why the HIS technique MUST be indeed a technique because otherwise, it cannot land blows like YG did with it. But since the sword itself limits the possibilities, then for a master swordsman, the maximum potential isn't reached. After all, if a swordsman can't surpass the limits of his weapon, what business does he have talking about being the epitome? How can he be said to have unleashed his full potential?


    Based on what you're saying, I could just hand someone a heavy sword without teaching him any stances and become the greatest teacher ever. Just because something is simpler doesn't mean that it's automatically a higher form of MA.
    Minor correction. Hand someone the HIS and a huge freezer full of snake bladders But clearly it was more than just that.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-14-08 at 08:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    Just because the swordstrokes can be read doesn't mean it can easily be defeated. The attacking principle of the HIS seems to be to take the most direct route, and damn the consequences. This was seen in the fight with Ci'en, where he used his iron palms to counter, presumably thinking to force YG into an exchange. Instead, the sword came on, barely hindered by the palms, and Ci'en was forced to defend. This would seem to be the mutual destruction aspect of DG9J as displayed by LHC, taken to the utmost degree, with the advantage of a superior weapon that's very good at conducting internal energy.

    From the logical descriptions, the only advantage DG9J has over the HIS would be when there are lots of attacks to be dealt with, a la the missile breaking stance. Yet even in this situation, we've seen YG wield the HIS extremely fluently with swift changes in direction, when he broke both Xiaoxiangzi's arms. And when he managed to control his internal energy in a wooden sword as he did with the HIS, even this theoretical limit would be nulled.

    I don't really see how DG9J theory is more sophisticated than the HIS. The strokes of the HIS are no more than the movements of the arm, which will still exist, formlessness or not, as long as the arm is still attached to the body.

    YG's sword failed miserably against the BWM, which is the strongest proof that there was something wrong with his swordsmanship. If YG couldn't win with his sword against an opponent with equal internal power, then how could he be a great swordsman? Based on what we saw in SPW, a great swordsman can easily beat an opponent with greater internal power.

    Are we to believe that DGQB only won with his sword because all his opponents had inferior internal power? If so, then DGQB and DG9J are JY's dumbest creations ever. Why even put any emphasis on the sword if internal power is the only thing that matters?

  14. #34
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    I think he's talking about that interview when JY was asked if YG had learned DG9J and JY replied that YG's swordsmanship wasn't particularly good.
    Wu Wudi is correct.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post

    Minor correction. Hand someone the HIS and a huge freezer full of snake bladders But clearly it was more than just that.
    Yeah, I would also leave my pet around to guide my student to where I used to pratice.
    Last edited by Wu Wudi; 03-14-08 at 09:38 PM.

  16. #36
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Title?
    As far as I know, Dugu Qiubai was NEVER called the Demonic Swordsman in SPW.

    And the names of their actual techniques have zero in common.
    he had no names for his techniques written on his tomb...only the type of swords. thus, we really have no idea what the name of his skills were during his early years. "demonic swordsman" was not mentioned in SPW, but surely Dugu's name without "demonic swordsman" was mentioned in ROCH. the way i see it, "demonic swordsman" is more of a title, whereas "dugu qiubai" is at least an adopted stage name. It's like saying that ZSF never mentioned Guo Jing with the title of "northern hero"...does that make it two different Guo Jings?

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    We know what Yang Guo thoguht it was supposed to refer to.
    And since thats the only thing we can go by, we have to ask ourselves: did Jin Yong say that just to tell us a lie? Or did Jin Yong mean it to be some information for us. I believe the latter.
    I admit, at the moment, JY probably had the intention of making YG following the right path along the wooden sword and perhaps even dugu qiubai's final stage. but then, i would imagine he may have changed his mind about it later while writing SPW (so yes, in a way, he did mess up--but it doesn't mean the character DGQB got messed up...at least not if you take a different interpretation). and since at the end of the day, JY decided that YG did not complete Dugu Qiubai's sword skils (ie. reach no sword stage), then clearly, JY decided that YG's thinking messed up somewhere. so, even if YG went along the right path for the "wooden sword" stage, the same train of thought may not necessarily apply for the "no sword" stage. though, it's my personal belief that YG did not even complete the wooden sword stage.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    He most certainly did, and I remember we had a lengthy disagreement on this previously. Time to dig that up.
    do as you will

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    HIS isn't formless. If anything it's OBVIOUS in form since there's only the nine basic sword strokes available (nothing to do with DG9J incidentally).
    HIS isn't formless but it's closer to it than Dugu 9 Swords.

    And if you're going to talk complexity, technically DG9J has precisely ONE stance for dealing with swords.
    Which is more complicated than HIS which has NO stance.

    HIS can't work in RL because it's too predictable. In fact, I really can't see how it could actually work even in JY's story context.
    Right, you can see how Dugu 9 Swords with its surprising positions would work, but not the HIS.

    Going back to the HIS, there was a particular quote in Rurouni Kenshin that really sums it up well. I'll paraphrase it a bit: "Your sword has unbelievable power and you wield its tremendous weight fluidly. But it has a weakness. The paths it can follow are straightforward and I can easily read it. You cannot defeat me."
    I can rephrase it for Dugu 9 Swords:

    "Your sword has unbelievable adaptability and you wield it with tremendous proficiency. But it has a weakness. Your internal strength sucks and I can blast you dead with a LDA. You cannot defeat me."
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  18. #38
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    HIS isn't formless but it's closer to it than Dugu 9 Swords.
    Disagree. As far as I'm concerned, HIS neither has form, nor is formless. It's basically just swinging very hard. There is NOTHING particularly special, unique, or impressive about that. Quite frankly, give Shi Potian the heavy iron sword, or Xu Zhu the heavy iron sword, without any particularly training, and their HIS would probably be more devastating than Yang Guo's. What's so special about that?


    Which is more complicated than HIS which has NO stance.
    As some other posters have mentioned, the 'zen-like' nature of elite martial arts in Jinyong, much as with Zen Buddhism itself, thrives in contradiction; to be indescribably complex, but also be incredibly simple.

    To view it another way, at the peak of softness, there is hardness, and when hardness reaches its peak, there is softness. Soft itself is of a truly high level only when it is birthed from hardness, and vice versa.

    No stance by itself is not a 'high level'. As is commented in DG9J, when a random person untrained in martial arts strikes out, no one can predict where he will attack, but he will still be easily defeated, because he knows no martial arts. DG9J is at the opposite end of the spectrum; where a person has reached such an incredible in martial arts that from complexity is born simplicity.

    HIS might have no stance aside from the basic attack patterns inherent in all swordplay, but that doesn't necessarily make it particularly profound. Training in it is the equivalent of giving that random person massive internal energy and decent speed, and a very basic idea of swordplay.

    "Your sword has unbelievable adaptability and you wield it with tremendous proficiency. But it has a weakness. Your internal strength sucks and I can blast you dead with a LDA. You cannot defeat me."
    I think this is a very weak analogy. LHC's lack of internal strength had nothing to do with DG9J, whereas Yang Guo's internal strength had everything to do with HIS. There's room for further growth with DG9J. I see no room for growth in HIS.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 03-14-08 at 10:23 PM.
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  19. #39
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    he had no names for his techniques written on his tomb...only the type of swords. thus, we really have no idea what the name of his skills were during his early years.
    True enough, I suppose. But I can say that Dugu 9 Swords is definitely not the technique to be used with HIS. HIS was almost completely based on internal energy. Linghu Chong in the early part of the story would have trouble PICKING UP the damn 80 pound sword, let alone use it in combat.

    "demonic swordsman" was not mentioned in SPW, but surely Dugu's name without "demonic swordsman" was mentioned in ROCH. the way i see it, "demonic swordsman" is more of a title, whereas "dugu qiubai" is at least an adopted stage name. It's like saying that ZSF never mentioned Guo Jing with the title of "northern hero"...does that make it two different Guo Jings?
    On Dugu Qiubai's tomb, he called himself Demonic Swordsman. Jin Yong referred him as such many times later in ROCH. Being such a cool and catchy title, it seems out of place that SPW would not even refer to the title Demonic Swordsman once. I mean Northern Hero is certainly not as catchy a title as Demonic Swordsman.

    I admit, at the moment, JY probably had the intention of making YG following the right path along the wooden sword and perhaps even dugu qiubai's final stage. but then, i would imagine he may have changed his mind about it later while writing SPW (so yes, in a way, he did mess up--but it doesn't mean the character DGQB got messed up...at least not if you take a different interpretation).
    I'm glad you're the first brave Dugu Qiubai/SPW fan to agree with me partially on this matter.

    Yes, I'm pretty sure that Jin Yong's vision for Dugu Qiubai evolved into what he wrote in SPW... I'll have more comments about that when I'm replying to Wu Wudi a little later.

    and since at the end of the day, JY decided that YG did not complete Dugu Qiubai's sword skils (ie. reach no sword stage), then clearly, JY decided that YG's thinking messed up somewhere. so, even if YG went along the right path for the "wooden sword" stage, the same train of thought may not necessarily apply for the "no sword" stage. though, it's my personal belief that YG did not even complete the wooden sword stage.
    About Yang Guo, I personally believe he's a victim of mainstream pressure.

    Jin Yong's original intention for ROCH is that it would end with Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu not reunited. But readers protested, and Jin Yong was pressured into coming up with additional material to reunite Yang and Long.

    The whole Sad Palms thing seems TOTALLY out of place with what Yang Guo learned from Dugu Qiubai. In fact, there's no hint that Sad Palms has ANY trace of HIS in it! At the end of chapter 34, we're told that Yang Guo kept practicing the way of the sword diligently... and yet, the next thing we know, he's completely ditched the sword and instead came up with this thing called Sad Palms.

    Personally, I think when Jin Yong was pressured into writing more about Yang Guo, he wanted to come up with someothing exciting, and the result was Sad Palms. Even though it has nothing to do with the sword art that Yang Guo dedicated many years to practice, I think Jin Yong just wanted to insert it for the hell of it.

    So, I agree that Yang Guo NEVER completed the wooden sword stage. There's no hint that he did. But I also believe that Jin Yong f*cked up the last part of his story regarding his post-16 years martial arts.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  20. #40
    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    On Dugu Qiubai's tomb, he called himself Demonic Swordsman. Jin Yong referred him as such many times later in ROCH. Being such a cool and catchy title, it seems out of place that SPW would not even refer to the title Demonic Swordsman once. I mean Northern Hero is certainly not as catchy a title as Demonic Swordsman.
    I told you before why people in SPW would not call DGQB the "DEMONIC SWORDSMAN". It's because only one person knew of his story, and he was Feng Qingyang. Feng Qingyang is like the descendant of DGQB, so why the heck would he call his ancestor a "demon"?

    He later relayed the story to Linghu Chong, omitting the part about the "DEMONIC SWORDSMAN". So how in the world would other people know if FQY don't tell?

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