The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[Ken Cheng]

Case closed....
With the HIS equipped, post-16 YG will be the victor.
I'm 99.99% confident of the same outcome vs any Great-caliber character from the Condor Trilogy.

$this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://michaelclara.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/rigged.002.png')

[Ken Cheng]

Case closed....
With the HIS equipped, post-16 YG will be the victor.
I'm 99.99% confident of the same outcome vs any Great-caliber character from the Condor Trilogy.

$this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-99YTtkKlpSE/VilSeNapTqI/AAAAAAAAERI/2GHbFw-Naec/s1600/image.jpg')

[FeilongZ]

To all the posters/voters on this thread, maybe 95%+ have retired already

The official title of this thread is "Gwok Jing vs Yeung Gor Debate", and it doesn't say that YG cannot use his No. 1 weapon and skill combination, which is the Heavy Iron Sword.

Post-16 YG equipped with the HIS is several levels to one tier higher (depending how much as a multiplier the HIS and its techniques contribute to YG's overall base power level) than Sad Palms YG.
Therefore, post-16 YG with the HIS is certainly the victor.

[Athena]

As much as I respect the enthusiasm for analysing martial arts in this genre, but giving numerical values or using mathematical equations in something in an art form both the novel and fantasy martial arts does not make sense. I applaud you for trying to solve the Guo Jing and Yang Guo debate, but you haven’t really solved anything. As fans or enthusiasts (if that term is more preferred), we like to overanalyse. We have come to respect and love some characters and we have a degree of hero worship, and the writer has this love for the characters he wrote. If Louis Cha were alive and we could ask him who would win in a hypothetical duel between Guo and Yang, he would probably dodge the question or refuse to answer. These are some ideas that I try to convey in this post: the unlikelihood of this hypothetical battle taking place, the impossibility of solving the unsolvable conundrum, assigning numerical values to fictional characters across novels, the Heavy Iron Sword is also just a stage and not the end of the martial arts phase, and the Heavy Iron Sword is a mere MacGuffin.

The hypothetical situation of Guo and Yang fighting cannot happen in the canon universe; not even a friendly duel. Guo Jing is the father that Yang Guo craved to have; in Confucian values exchanging blows between an elder and a junior is unthought of. Yang Guo does not even attempt to resist when Guo, in a fit of anger, almost wants to kill Yang Guo for making a ‘mistake’ at the first Heroes’ Meeting. That is the amount of resignation and love Yang Guo has for Guo Jing, and the other way around. Guo Jing is willing to storm into an army to save Yang and he does even when he is facing the Golden Wheel Monk, Xiaoxiang Zi, Nimoxing, Yin Kexi and an entire army. Guo Jing and Yang Guo might discuss their respective insights of martial arts and display a few techniques when they were both in Xiangyang after the final battle or on their way to Huashan to honour Hong Qigong (and Ouyang Feng). Asking if Yang Guo is more powerful than Guo Xing is akin to asking whether Xiao Feng can defeat a healed Xiao Yuanshan or is the adult Simba stronger than Mufasa. The situation we wish to put Guo Jing and Yang is just not intended by the author. There is no hypothetical outcome to this hypothetical.

On top of that every ‘legendarium' has these unsolvable situations that even the author does not want to resolve. There are instances of this throughout different stories where two powerful characters exist in the same universe, but they are not destined to have that ‘duel’ to solve who is the true undefeated. In Tolkien’s legendarium, enthusiasts debate to no end whether Gandalf the White with the use of Narya could defeat the ringless Sauron or Galadriel with Nenya could confront Sauron with the One Ring. In the Harry Potter universe, who would win if the aurors did not arrive at the Ministry of Magic and Dumbledore and Voldemort were allowed to duel till there is a victor? There are countless of these situations throughout fiction. These characters and the possibilities of a duel create suspense; the writers may have given thought about these duels, but they probably have not envisioned an outcome. Tolkien mused about these possibilities and was incredibly cryptic about these situations. These paradoxes were meant to be unsolved by the authors; trying to solve something that does not have an outcome is only subjective (to a group of readers).

I have never joined the ultimate ranking of the characters because I don’t really think mathematical equations work on something as artistic as martial ARTS. Isn’t that like assigning Monet 12 points and Renoir is 16 points, how does one make up those rules? If we even move to something more combat related, how would that work in Arthurian legends for example? Sir Lancelot is 18 points, Sir Gawain is 15 points and King Arthur without Excalibur is 16 points; how does one come to that number? Cross-novel comparisons do not really work well. How can we possibly know that Chen Jinnan is probably better than Mei Chaofeng? Xiao Feng, a mighty warrior and noble character as he is, could not kill a tiger with 70 per cent of his internal energy, while Huang Yaoshi casually smashes the skull of a strong horse in LOCH. A zoologist might probably tell me that the bone density of a tiger can withstand a stronger blow than compared to a war horse and I would believe him or her. With that being said, descriptions that Louis Cha uses to describe feats differ from novel to novel and character to character. In that scene which is analysed to death where the Golden Wheel Monk and Yang Guo clashed for the first time after 16 years and both were impressed with one another. Yang Guo’s sword was shattered and one of the chakrams of the Golden Wheel Monk was knocked out of his hand. A similar incident happened in Ode to Gallantry where Bai Zizai and Wudang leader, Yucha, exchanged skills. Bai Zizai’s wooden sword cut Yucha’s wooden sword in half, but Yucha managed to knock Bai Zizai’s wooden sword out of his hand. Yucha smiled and said that Bai Zizai’s internal energy is higher than his, and Bai exclaimed that Yucha had the edge in technique. Is that proof that the Golden Wheel Monk’s internal energy is higher than Yang Guo and that Yang Guo is only better than the Golden Wheel Monk in technques? No, it is not. The ranking just does not seem to hold water because the writer did not do the mathematical numbers and there are instances that there is no proof of how we know either way. After reading Louis Cha novels for years and for years indulging in these comparisons, if someone asked:” Is Ban Shuxian (wife of He Taichong) stronger than Mei Chaofeng or Li Mochou? I would say:” I honestly cannot tell.” In novel, we MIGHT be able to do comparisons, but across the novels, I am really uncertain how that would work.

Dugu Qiubai was invincible with his Heavy Iron Sword and he was in the author’s mind undefeated and was looking for someone to give him a good duel. Yet, he progressed, Dugu did not remain complacent that he could defeat anyone with this special weapon. He wanted, like Yang, be freed from an attachment to this particular weapon to seek a win. Like most artists, he wanted to explore the boundaries:” Is it physically possible to be this effective without the reliance of this weapon?” Yang Guo tried to advance his martial arts in those 16 years, he tried to move outside the mould. He proved to be just effective of creating a powerful blast without the Heavy Iron Sword. That would be similar to saying that if Zhang Junbao was done with martial arts development after mastering his 1/3 version of Jiuyang. True martial artists or grand masters develop and advance and try to break free from a certain reliance. As retcon, we learn in Smiling Proud Wanderer that Zhang Sanfeng had a fine blade as well but in his final years, he uses a wooden sword. Will Taiji Sword be better with the Zhenwu Blade? Maybe? I don't know. I am not debating the fact that Yang Guo would not gain a significant advantage with the Heavy Iron Sword over Guo Jing or any other expert around the level of a Great. In a fiery tower of inferno and at one of the most crucial battles that might determine the outcome of an entire population, martial arts pride is the least of Yang’s concern and obviously he thought:” I wish I had brought my Heavy Iron Sword.”.

Then, we come to the Heavy Iron Sword, itself, that obviously serves as the MacGuffin of the story. That special weapon that is needed to give the protagonist the boost he needs to go head-to-head with his most formidable adversary. Jiuyin manual is the MacGuffin for Guo Jing in LOCH; the Six Meridian Swords for Duan Yu, Dugu Nine Swords for Linghu Chong and the list goes on forever. However, a good writer does not allow the protagonist to use this secret weapon for the entire road to the end of the story. It would be so easy and the story would not have the suspense it needs. We are putting Yang Guo with the Heavy Iron Sword against Guo Jing; that is like putting Yoda with his walking stick against Palpatine who has a light sabre, or putting Voldemort, if he wins the Elder Wand legitimately, against Dumbledore who uses his ‘Elder Wand’, which canonically cannot happen. Obviously, Yang Guo with a ‘magical’ weapon could defeat anyone. If we accept that Guo Jing can’t defeat Yang Guo with the Heavy Iron Sword, we should also put doubts that Guo Jing can defeat the Golden Wheel Monk if the latter chooses to use his chakrams. Barehanded versus a weapon, but apparently Guo Jing still did that in the Mongolian army camp. Yang Guo slashes three of the Golden Wheel Monk’s chakrams but when the Golden Wheel Monk did this: [但不論国师如何變招，始終欺不近楊龍二人三步之內。堪堪斗了四五十招，国师雙輪歸一，合并了向小龍女砸去。 楊過玄鐵劍刺出，嗒的一聲輕響，已抵在金輪邊上，兩股內力自兩件兵刃上傳了出來，互相激荡，霎時之間兩人僵 持不動.] The Heavy Iron Sword did not cut through the two wheels like butter this time. So, the magic works selectively? I do not know about the ultimate ranking but if we put Yang Guo with his Heavy Iron Sword above Guo Jing, should the list also not reflect that Miejue should be higher ranked than Yang Xiao or Fan Yao with the Heavenly Sword? Xie Xun with the Dragon-Slaying Sabre and not blind should be stronger than Cheng Kun/Yuanzhen, or at least as strong? These ‘magical’ items only work up to a certain degree and to echo CC in another post in another thread: this will become mathematical cherry picking.

In short, there is nothing wrong with overanalysing martial arts in a martial arts genre; however, we have to realise that sometimes even the author did not put so much thought into working out the mechanics. Louis Cha has done it better than many other authors; in Liang Yusheng’s Tale of the White Maiden there are martial arts experts appearing everywhere and the level of Zhuo Yihang and Lian Nichang changes whenever the occasion needs it to change. We can cherry pick and try to work out some mechanics but at the end of the day, that equation is going to be lukewarm received and not definitive. Again, I applaud your attempt but nothing really new is put forward. Your analogy is probably akin to me saying to the Tolkien fans:” Why doesn’t Galadriel take the One Ring and defeat Sauron?” They will probably tell me: “The story does not work that way.”, and the same could be said in this case.


Addendum one: I do love the fact that readers and fans overanalyse so much though. It does give credence to Roland Barthes’ marvellous essay “the Death of the Author” 1967. Sorry for the typos and such, I wrote this in a hurry and out of pure lockdown boredom. I hope everyone stays safe.


Addendum two: This doesn’t mean I am drawn back into martial arts comparisons. For the record, I utterly regret comparing LOCH trilogy with DGSD back in the day. I would much rather discuss character, plot and background so much more.

[CC]

As much as I respect the enthusiasm for analysing martial arts, but giving numerical values or using mathematical equations in something in an art form both the novel and martial arts does not make sense. I applaud you for trying to solve the Guo Jing and Yang Guo debate, but you haven’t really solved anything. As fans or enthusiasts (if that term is more preferred), we like to overanalyse. We have come to respect and love some characters and we have a degree of hero worship, and the writer has this love for the characters he wrote. If Louis Cha were alive and we could ask him who would win in a hypothetical duel between Guo and Yang, he would probably dodge the question or refuse to answer. These are some ideas that I try to convey in this post: the unlikelihood of this hypothetical battle taking place, the impossibility of solving the unsolvable conundrum, assigning numerical values to fictional characters across novels, the Heavy Iron Sword is also just a stage and not the end of the martial arts phase, and the Heavy Iron Sword is a mere MacGuffin.

The hypothetical situation of Guo and Yang fighting cannot happen in the canon universe; not even a friendly duel. Guo Jing is the father that Yang Guo craved to have; in Confucian customs exchanging blows between an elder and a junior is unthought of. Yang Guo does not even attempt to resist when Guo, in a fit of anger, almost wants to kill Yang Guo for making a ‘mistake’ at the first Heroes’ Meeting. That is the amount of resignation and love Yang Guo has for Guo Jing, and the other way around. Guo Jing is willing to storm into an army to save Yang and he does even when he is facing the Golden Wheel Monk, Xiaoxiang Zi, Nimoxing, Yin Kexi and an entire army. Guo Jing and Yang Guo might discuss their respective insights of martial arts and display a few techniques when they were both in Xiangyang after the final battle or on their way to Huashan to honour Hong Qigong (and Ouyang Feng). Asking if Yang Guo is more powerful than Guo Xing is akin to asking whether Xiao Feng can defeat a healed Xiao Yuanshan or an adult Simba stronger than Musfafa. The situation we wish to put Guo Jing and Yang is just not intended by the author. There is no hypothetical outcome to this hypothetical.

On top of that every ‘legendarium has these unsolvable situations that even the author does not want to resolve. There are instances of this throughout different stories where two powerful characters exist in the same universe, but they are not destined to have that ‘duel’ to solve who is the true undefeated. In Tolkien’s legendarium, enthusiasts debate to no end whether Gandalf the White with the use of Narya could defeat the ringless Sauron or Galadriel with Nenya could confront Sauron with the One Ring. In the Harry Potter universe, who would win if the aurors did not arrive at the Ministry of Magic and Dumbledore and Voldemort were allowed to duel till there is a victor? There are countless of these situations throughout fiction. These characters and the possibilities of a duel create suspense; the writers may have given thought about these duels, but they probably have not envisioned an outcome. Tolkien mused about these possibilities and was incredibly cryptic about these situations. These paradoxes were meant to be unsolved by the authors; trying to solve something that does not have an outcome is only subjective (to a group of readers).

I have never joined the ultimate ranking of the characters because I don’t really think mathematical equations work on something as artistic as martial ARTS. Isn’t that like assigning Monet 12 points and Renoir is 16 points, how makes up those rules? If we even move to something more combat related, how would that work in Arthurian legends for example? Sir Lancelot is 18 points, Sir Gawain is 15 points and King Arthur without Excalibur is 16 points; how does one come to that number? Cross-novel comparisons do not really work well. How can we possibly know that Chen Jinnan is probably better than Mei Chaofeng? Xiao Feng, a mighty warrior and noble character as he is, could not kill a tiger with 70 per cent of his internal energy, while Huang Yaoshi casually smashes the skull of a strong horse in LOCH. A zoologist might probably tell me that the bone density of a tiger can withstand a stronger blow than compared to a war horse. With that, descriptions that Louis Cha uses to describe feats differ from novel to novel and character to character. In that scene which is analysed to death where the Golden Wheel Monk and Yang Guo clashed for the first time after 16 years and both were impressed with one another. Yang Guo’s sword was shattered and one of the chakrams of the Golden Wheel Monk was knocked out of his hand. A similar incident happened in Ode to Gallantry where Bai Zizai and Wudang leader Yucha, exchanged skills. Bai Zizai’s wooden sword cut Yucha’s wooden sword in half, but Yucha managed to knock Bai Zizai’s wooden sword out of his hand. Yucha smiled and said that Bai Zizai’s internal energy is higher than his, and Bai exclaimed that Yucha had the edge in technique. Is that proof that the Golden Wheel Monk’s internal energy is higher than Yang Guo and the Golden Wheel Monk’s technique is better than Yang’s? No, it is not. The ranking just does not seem to hold water because the writer did not do the mathematical numbers and there are instances that there is no proof of how we know either way. After reading Louis Cha novels for years and for years indulging in these comparisons, if someone asked:” Is Ban Shuxian (wife of He Taichong) stronger than Mei Chaofeng or Li Mochou? I would say:” I honestly cannot tell.” In novel, we MIGHT be able to do comparisons, but across the novels, I am really uncertain how that would work.

Dugu Qiubai was invincible with his Heavy Iron Sword and he was in the author’s mind undefeated and was looking for someone to give him a good duel. Yet, he progressed, Dugu did not remain complacent that he could defeat anyone with this special weapon. He wanted, like Yang, be freed from an attachment to this particular weapon to seek a win. Like most artists, he wanted to explore the boundaries:” Is it physically possible to be this effective without the reliance of this weapon?” Yang Guo tried to advance his martial arts in those 16 years, he tried to move outside the mould. He proved to be just effective of creating a powerful blast without the Heavy Iron Sword. That would be similar to saying that if Zhang Junbao was done with martial arts development after mastering his 1/3 version of Jiuyang. Tru martial artists or grand masters develop and advance and try to break free from a certain reliance. As retcon, we learn in Smiling Proud Wanderer that Zhang Sanfeng had a fine blade as well but in his final years, he uses a wooden sword. I am not debating the fact that Yang Guo would not gain a significant advantage with the Heavy Iron Sword over Guo Jing or any other expert around the level of a Great. In a fiery tower of inferno and at one of the most crucial battles that might determine the outcome of an entire population, martial arts pride is the least of Yang’s concern and obviously he thought:” I wish I had brought my Heavy Iron Sword.”.

Then, we come to the Heavy Iron Sword, itself, that obviously serves as the MacGuffin of the story. That special weapon that is needed to give the protagonist the boost he needs to go head-to-head with his most formidable adversary. Jiuyin manual is MacGuffin for Guo Jing in LOCH; the Six Meridian Swords for Duan Yu, Dugu Nine Swords for Linghu Chong and the list goes on forever. However, a good writer does not allow the protagonist to use this secret weapon for the entire road to the end of the story. It would be so easy and the story would not have the suspense it needs. We are putting Yang Guo with the Heavy Iron Sword against Guo Jing; that is like putting Yoda with his walking stick against Palpatine who has a light sabre, or putting Voldemort, if he wins the Elder Wand legitimately, against Dumbledore who uses his ‘Elder Wand’, which canonically cannot happen. Obviously, Yang Guo with a ‘magical’ weapon could defeat anyone. If we accept that Guo Jing can’t defeat Yang Guo with the Heavy Iron Sword, we should also put doubts that Guo Jing can defeat the Golden Wheel Monk if the latter chooses to use his chakras. Barehanded versus a weapon, but apparently Guo Jing still did that in the Mongolian army camp. Yang Guo slashes three of the Golden Wheel Monk’s chakras but when the Golden Wheel Monk did this: [但不論国师如何變招，始終欺不近楊龍二人三步之內。堪堪斗了四五十招，国师雙輪歸一，合并了向小龍女砸去。 楊過玄鐵劍刺出，嗒的一聲輕響，已抵在金輪邊上，兩股內力自兩件兵刃上傳了出來，互相激□，霎時之間兩人僵 持不動.] The Heavy Iron Sword did not cut through the two wheels like butter this time. I do not know about the ultimate ranking but if we put Yang Guo with his Heavy Iron Sword above Guo Jing, should the list also not reflect that Miejue should be higher ranked than Yang Xiao or Fan Yao with the Heavenly Sword? Xie Xun with the Dragon-Slaying Sabre and not blind should be stronger than Cheng Kun/Yuanzhen, or at least as strong? These ‘magical’ items only work up to a certain degree and to echo CC in another post in another thread: this will become mathematical cherry picking.

In short, there is nothing wrong with overanalysing martial arts in a martial arts genre; however, we have to realise that sometimes even the author did not put so much thought into working out the mechanics. Louis Cha has done it better than many other authors; in Liang Yusheng’s Tale of the White Maiden there are martial arts experts appearing everywhere and the level of Zhuo Yihang and Lian Nichang change whenever the occasion needs it to change. We can cherry pick and try to work out some mechanics but at the end of the day, that equation is going to be lukewarm received and not definitive. Again, I applaud your attempt but nothing really new is put forward. Your analogy is probably akin to me saying to the Tolkien fans:” Why doesn’t Galadriel take the One Ring and defeat Sauron?” They will probably tell me: “The story does not work that way.”, and the same could be said in this case.


Addendum one: I do love the fact that readers and fans overanalyse so much though. It does give credence to Roland Barthes’ marvellous essay “the Death of the Author” 1967. Sorry for the typos and such, I wrote this in a hurry and out of pure lockdown boredom. I hope everyone stays safe.


Addendum two: This doesn’t mean I am drawn back into martial arts comparisons. For the record, I utterly regret comparing LOCH trilogy with DGSD back in the day. I would much rather discuss character, plot and background so much more.

Someone sticky this post on top of forum please.

If you look at JY's interview answers, he never gives a direct who will beat who answer. And even when he gives something close, to that, his explanation doesn't really make sense (e.g. saying that XF's 18DP was stronger _because_ G7G/GJ's version was handed down via XZ. That doesnt make any sense using our forum logic because 1. the condensed version got rid of redundancy 2. XZ learnt everything and we got not hint in 3rd ed. that H7G was missing any part).

[ChanceEncounter]

Someone sticky this post on top of forum please.

If you look at JY's interview answers, he never gives a direct who will beat who answer. And even when he gives something close, to that, his explanation doesn't really make sense (e.g. saying that XF's 18DP was stronger _because_ G7G/GJ's version was handed down via XZ. That doesnt make any sense using our forum logic because 1. the condensed version got rid of redundancy 2. XZ learnt everything and we got not hint in 3rd ed. that H7G was missing any part).

Or maybe the ten whole stances that XF/XZ cut out were less redundant than they thought? Or there were some supporting feature to the stances, such that learning them served as some kind of training vehicle to execute the maximum power of the remaining 18 stances.

And while Athena makes a nice post, I see nothing there to suggest it's worth stickying. We KNOW that an actual fight between Yang Guo and Guo Jing wouldn't happen in canon continuity. Neither would a fight between Yang Guo or Linghu Chong, considering the former was long dead by the time the latter came around. But it's still fun to speculate how a fight between the two of them would go.

Just like how we might speculate how a modern boxer would fare against the legends of the past, or a more recent sports team might perform against a champion from another era. To a lot of fans, it's interesting, and it gives them harmless enjoyment. And for it to be truly enjoyable, these hypothetical matchups have to be close. Dumbledore vs Voldemort is enjoyable because you could make a legitimate argument for either side. Dumbledore vs Ron Weasley is not, because the result is purely academic.

As for ranking martial arts via some kind of "mathematical equation", I'd argue that any hypothetical martial arts competition is no more complex than what might happen when you have 9 players try to keep a batter from advancing to home plate again. Or 11 players trying to keep a ball from going into the back of the net. Or five players from trying to outscore their opponents by putting a ball through a hoop. And yet, advanced statistics, sabrmetrics, and a slew of statistical understanding has only enhanced the conversation about these games, even down to the way players and teams are scouted and ranked.

It might be problematic to simplify entire characters into single numbers, and to that effect I can certainly agree, but it's not due to some nebulous art factor in these martial arts that make it impossible to rank them. In fact, I would argue that the author himself ranks them pretty discretely. You have the five greats who themselves are roughly equal despite what, in real life, would likely be a series of matchup advantages each have or concede against the others. And yet, we're supposed to accept that these things even out and they're all somehow equal against each other and superior to literally everyone else in the martial world. Where exactly is the artistic nuance there?

As for whether or not JY, if he were still alive, would agree or disagree. There is a thing called death of the author. Past a certain point, the author's intent should not hold particular importance, and especially not when there's contradictory evidence from the primary source (the books) themselves.

[Ken Cheng]

As much as I respect the enthusiasm for analysing martial arts, but giving numerical values or using mathematical equations in something in an art form both the novel and martial arts does not make sense. I applaud you for trying to solve the Guo Jing and Yang Guo debate, but you haven’t really solved anything. As fans or enthusiasts (if that term is more preferred), we like to overanalyse. We have come to respect and love some characters and we have a degree of hero worship, and the writer has this love for the characters he wrote. If Louis Cha were alive and we could ask him who would win in a hypothetical duel between Guo and Yang, he would probably dodge the question or refuse to answer. These are some ideas that I try to convey in this post: the unlikelihood of this hypothetical battle taking place, the impossibility of solving the unsolvable conundrum, assigning numerical values to fictional characters across novels, the Heavy Iron Sword is also just a stage and not the end of the martial arts phase, and the Heavy Iron Sword is a mere MacGuffin.

The hypothetical situation of Guo and Yang fighting cannot happen in the canon universe; not even a friendly duel. Guo Jing is the father that Yang Guo craved to have; in Confucian customs exchanging blows between an elder and a junior is unthought of. Yang Guo does not even attempt to resist when Guo, in a fit of anger, almost wants to kill Yang Guo for making a ‘mistake’ at the first Heroes’ Meeting. That is the amount of resignation and love Yang Guo has for Guo Jing, and the other way around. Guo Jing is willing to storm into an army to save Yang and he does even when he is facing the Golden Wheel Monk, Xiaoxiang Zi, Nimoxing, Yin Kexi and an entire army. Guo Jing and Yang Guo might discuss their respective insights of martial arts and display a few techniques when they were both in Xiangyang after the final battle or on their way to Huashan to honour Hong Qigong (and Ouyang Feng). Asking if Yang Guo is more powerful than Guo Xing is akin to asking whether Xiao Feng can defeat a healed Xiao Yuanshan or an adult Simba stronger than Musfafa. The situation we wish to put Guo Jing and Yang is just not intended by the author. There is no hypothetical outcome to this hypothetical.

On top of that every ‘legendarium has these unsolvable situations that even the author does not want to resolve. There are instances of this throughout different stories where two powerful characters exist in the same universe, but they are not destined to have that ‘duel’ to solve who is the true undefeated. In Tolkien’s legendarium, enthusiasts debate to no end whether Gandalf the White with the use of Narya could defeat the ringless Sauron or Galadriel with Nenya could confront Sauron with the One Ring. In the Harry Potter universe, who would win if the aurors did not arrive at the Ministry of Magic and Dumbledore and Voldemort were allowed to duel till there is a victor? There are countless of these situations throughout fiction. These characters and the possibilities of a duel create suspense; the writers may have given thought about these duels, but they probably have not envisioned an outcome. Tolkien mused about these possibilities and was incredibly cryptic about these situations. These paradoxes were meant to be unsolved by the authors; trying to solve something that does not have an outcome is only subjective (to a group of readers).

I have never joined the ultimate ranking of the characters because I don’t really think mathematical equations work on something as artistic as martial ARTS. Isn’t that like assigning Monet 12 points and Renoir is 16 points, how makes up those rules? If we even move to something more combat related, how would that work in Arthurian legends for example? Sir Lancelot is 18 points, Sir Gawain is 15 points and King Arthur without Excalibur is 16 points; how does one come to that number? Cross-novel comparisons do not really work well. How can we possibly know that Chen Jinnan is probably better than Mei Chaofeng? Xiao Feng, a mighty warrior and noble character as he is, could not kill a tiger with 70 per cent of his internal energy, while Huang Yaoshi casually smashes the skull of a strong horse in LOCH. A zoologist might probably tell me that the bone density of a tiger can withstand a stronger blow than compared to a war horse. With that, descriptions that Louis Cha uses to describe feats differ from novel to novel and character to character. In that scene which is analysed to death where the Golden Wheel Monk and Yang Guo clashed for the first time after 16 years and both were impressed with one another. Yang Guo’s sword was shattered and one of the chakrams of the Golden Wheel Monk was knocked out of his hand. A similar incident happened in Ode to Gallantry where Bai Zizai and Wudang leader Yucha, exchanged skills. Bai Zizai’s wooden sword cut Yucha’s wooden sword in half, but Yucha managed to knock Bai Zizai’s wooden sword out of his hand. Yucha smiled and said that Bai Zizai’s internal energy is higher than his, and Bai exclaimed that Yucha had the edge in technique. Is that proof that the Golden Wheel Monk’s internal energy is higher than Yang Guo and the Golden Wheel Monk’s technique is better than Yang’s? No, it is not. The ranking just does not seem to hold water because the writer did not do the mathematical numbers and there are instances that there is no proof of how we know either way. After reading Louis Cha novels for years and for years indulging in these comparisons, if someone asked:” Is Ban Shuxian (wife of He Taichong) stronger than Mei Chaofeng or Li Mochou? I would say:” I honestly cannot tell.” In novel, we MIGHT be able to do comparisons, but across the novels, I am really uncertain how that would work.

Dugu Qiubai was invincible with his Heavy Iron Sword and he was in the author’s mind undefeated and was looking for someone to give him a good duel. Yet, he progressed, Dugu did not remain complacent that he could defeat anyone with this special weapon. He wanted, like Yang, be freed from an attachment to this particular weapon to seek a win. Like most artists, he wanted to explore the boundaries:” Is it physically possible to be this effective without the reliance of this weapon?” Yang Guo tried to advance his martial arts in those 16 years, he tried to move outside the mould. He proved to be just effective of creating a powerful blast without the Heavy Iron Sword. That would be similar to saying that if Zhang Junbao was done with martial arts development after mastering his 1/3 version of Jiuyang. Tru martial artists or grand masters develop and advance and try to break free from a certain reliance. As retcon, we learn in Smiling Proud Wanderer that Zhang Sanfeng had a fine blade as well but in his final years, he uses a wooden sword. I am not debating the fact that Yang Guo would not gain a significant advantage with the Heavy Iron Sword over Guo Jing or any other expert around the level of a Great. In a fiery tower of inferno and at one of the most crucial battles that might determine the outcome of an entire population, martial arts pride is the least of Yang’s concern and obviously he thought:” I wish I had brought my Heavy Iron Sword.”.

Then, we come to the Heavy Iron Sword, itself, that obviously serves as the MacGuffin of the story. That special weapon that is needed to give the protagonist the boost he needs to go head-to-head with his most formidable adversary. Jiuyin manual is MacGuffin for Guo Jing in LOCH; the Six Meridian Swords for Duan Yu, Dugu Nine Swords for Linghu Chong and the list goes on forever. However, a good writer does not allow the protagonist to use this secret weapon for the entire road to the end of the story. It would be so easy and the story would not have the suspense it needs. We are putting Yang Guo with the Heavy Iron Sword against Guo Jing; that is like putting Yoda with his walking stick against Palpatine who has a light sabre, or putting Voldemort, if he wins the Elder Wand legitimately, against Dumbledore who uses his ‘Elder Wand’, which canonically cannot happen. Obviously, Yang Guo with a ‘magical’ weapon could defeat anyone. If we accept that Guo Jing can’t defeat Yang Guo with the Heavy Iron Sword, we should also put doubts that Guo Jing can defeat the Golden Wheel Monk if the latter chooses to use his chakras. Barehanded versus a weapon, but apparently Guo Jing still did that in the Mongolian army camp. Yang Guo slashes three of the Golden Wheel Monk’s chakras but when the Golden Wheel Monk did this: [但不論国师如何變招，始終欺不近楊龍二人三步之內。堪堪斗了四五十招，国师雙輪歸一，合并了向小龍女砸去。 楊過玄鐵劍刺出，嗒的一聲輕響，已抵在金輪邊上，兩股內力自兩件兵刃上傳了出來，互相激□，霎時之間兩人僵 持不動.] The Heavy Iron Sword did not cut through the two wheels like butter this time. I do not know about the ultimate ranking but if we put Yang Guo with his Heavy Iron Sword above Guo Jing, should the list also not reflect that Miejue should be higher ranked than Yang Xiao or Fan Yao with the Heavenly Sword? Xie Xun with the Dragon-Slaying Sabre and not blind should be stronger than Cheng Kun/Yuanzhen, or at least as strong? These ‘magical’ items only work up to a certain degree and to echo CC in another post in another thread: this will become mathematical cherry picking.

In short, there is nothing wrong with overanalysing martial arts in a martial arts genre; however, we have to realise that sometimes even the author did not put so much thought into working out the mechanics. Louis Cha has done it better than many other authors; in Liang Yusheng’s Tale of the White Maiden there are martial arts experts appearing everywhere and the level of Zhuo Yihang and Lian Nichang change whenever the occasion needs it to change. We can cherry pick and try to work out some mechanics but at the end of the day, that equation is going to be lukewarm received and not definitive. Again, I applaud your attempt but nothing really new is put forward. Your analogy is probably akin to me saying to the Tolkien fans:” Why doesn’t Galadriel take the One Ring and defeat Sauron?” They will probably tell me: “The story does not work that way.”, and the same could be said in this case.


Addendum one: I do love the fact that readers and fans overanalyse so much though. It does give credence to Roland Barthes’ marvellous essay “the Death of the Author” 1967. Sorry for the typos and such, I wrote this in a hurry and out of pure lockdown boredom. I hope everyone stays safe.


Addendum two: This doesn’t mean I am drawn back into martial arts comparisons. For the record, I utterly regret comparing LOCH trilogy with DGSD back in the day. I would much rather discuss character, plot and background so much more.

Thank you. I also find it disingenuous to establish a foregone conclusion based on personal assumptions and then find (e.g. arbitrarily pull out of the ether) "facts" and specious figures to support such a conclusion. That isn't how good science works; that's how bad "science" works.

[CC]

Or maybe the ten whole stances that XF/XZ cut out were less redundant than they thought? Or there were some supporting feature to the stances, such that learning them served as some kind of training vehicle to execute the maximum power of the remaining 18 stances.

And while Athena makes a nice post, I see nothing there to suggest it's worth stickying. We KNOW that an actual fight between Yang Guo and Guo Jing wouldn't happen in canon continuity. Neither would a fight between Yang Guo or Linghu Chong, considering the former was long dead by the time the latter came around. But it's still fun to speculate how a fight between the two of them would go.
.

1. Never stated and is just us putting our own made up possibilities to cover JY's loose plot points.

2. The main point for me, and which I always harp on, is not so much that JY and the story will not let it happen but that we cannot even use specific feats and A beat B who beat C so A beats C logic when comparing sometimes, because when JY wrote the story, the story advancement trumps all the wuxia math logic.

[FeilongZ]

To Athena and ChanceEncounter:
Your analyses were very insightful.

To Athena:
However, from a fun point of view:
1. How would you rate the level of post-16 Yang Guo with the Heavy Iron Sword compared to base post-16 YG, power + techniques.

2. Post-16 YG with HIS vs Sad Palms YG,
Power + Techniques

3. If base post-16 YG Level= 80,
What is Post-16 YG with HIS Level?

[Ken Cheng]

2. The main point for me, and which I always harp on, is not so much that JY and the story will not let it happen but that we cannot even use specific feats and A beat B who beat C so A beats C logic when comparing sometimes, because when JY wrote the story, the story advancement trumps all the wuxia math logic.

Nothing proves this point better than that scene late in LOCH when 19/20-year old Gwok Jing somehow held off West Poison Au Yeung Fung, Chow Bak Tung, and Kau Cheen Yan simultaneously for a minute or so. At best, Gwok Jing was around 70% of a Great at the time. Even one of those guys should have been able to immolate him, and there's no logical reason that Gwok Jing didn't end up a bloody smear on the ground within a minute if all three were ganging up on him. Main Character Shielding (TM) and author's intention overrode any wuxia math and determined, "Gwok Jing is the main character, and he's not going to die. Therefore, he's going to hold off three opponents who are each superior to him, even though that's highly improbable in mathematical terms."

[Western Eccentric]

Nothing proves this point better than that scene late in LOCH when 19/20-year old Gwok Jing somehow held off West Poison Au Yeung Fung, Chow Bak Tung, and Kau Cheen Yan simultaneously for a minute or so. At best, Gwok Jing was around 70% of a Great at the time. Even one of those guys should have been able to immolate him, and there's no logical reason that Gwok Jing didn't end up a bloody smear on the ground within a minute if all three were ganging up on him. Main Character Shielding (TM) and author's intention overrode any wuxia math and determined, "Gwok Jing is the main character, and he's not going to die. Therefore, he's going to hold off three opponents who are each superior to him, even though that's highly improbable in mathematical terms."

GJ case just like XLN in ROCH when she fight against JLFW + 3 Mongolian Mercenaries + 5 QZ Masters and at this time XLN true "skill" is not better than JLFW even The 3 Mercenaries yet she could fought them simultaneously thanks to ZBT L/R Hand Skill..

[ChanceEncounter]

The main point for me, and which I always harp on, is not so much that JY and the story will not let it happen but that we cannot even use specific feats and A beat B who beat C so A beats C logic when comparing sometimes, because when JY wrote the story, the story advancement trumps all the wuxia math logic.

I mean this is fairly easy for me to accept, that being the victor in the story does not mean they are the superior fighter. Upsets happen all the time.

It's just as disingenuous to state "we can't make any rankings because it's a story" as it is to rigidly hold onto one throwaway line about how someone's power "doubled." You can, for instance, examine the body of evidence to suggest what one person is capable of being. And that kind of discussion is exactly what drives much of the conversation around the entire genre.

[WhiteLotus]

If you look at JY's interview answers, he never gives a direct who will beat who answer. And even when he gives something close, to that, his explanation doesn't really make sense (e.g. saying that XF's 18DP was stronger _because_ G7G/GJ's version was handed down via XZ. That doesnt make any sense using our forum logic because 1. the condensed version got rid of redundancy 2. XZ learnt everything and we got not hint in 3rd ed. that H7G was missing any part).

Perhaps, he meant that he was the best practitioner of the technique. He can get the most out of it. He can transform the ordinary into the extraordinary e.g. the Founder's Long Fist. So imagine what he can do with an already powerful set of skills.

The script/manual is the same, but mastery differs from person to person obviously.

If we just judge it from the interview alone, it does look like he's implying something was lost in the transfer from Hui Juk to the next beggar clan leader. It was "Kiu Fung's subordinate" who imparted it and not Kiu Fung (the creator/brains). The one who knew the ins and outs of the technique. That Hui Juk, though powerful, wasn't a great mentor? The complete essence was lost?

However, you absolutely wouldn't know for definite who was stronger just from reading the books (3rd edition). Hui Juk was a co-creator. Siu Fung was interested if it could be enhanced further by incorporating Siu Yiu sect philosophies. It wasn't made explicit if it carried those influences though. 28 palms held back the palm technique's true potential, it required the involvement of Siu Fung and Hui Juk to help unlock its great power.

If we accept his interview statement as true, in the end that's just one skill Kiu Fung is better than GJ and H7G at. H7G could be better at the Dog-Beating Stick Technique to level things out, who knows.

[Athena]

To Athena and ChanceEncounter:
Your analyses were very insightful.

To Athena:
However, from a fun point of view:
1. How would you rate the level of post-16 Yang Guo with the Heavy Iron Sword compared to base post-16 YG, power + techniques.

2. Post-16 YG with HIS vs Sad Palms YG,
Power + Techniques

3. If base post-16 YG Level= 80,
What is Post-16 YG with HIS Level?

You basically yada-yada-ed over my entire post and told me to indulge your hypothetical which I disagree with. If I do give you my mathematical haphazard guess, then my previous post might as well be deleted?

I am on the side that Guo Jing and Yang Guo are around the same level. I may not have proof and probably there isn’t proof of that, but it works in my ‘head canon’. To echo Barthes’ essay ‘The Death of the Author’, we do have autonomy to think differently even if the ‘tyrannical’ author says this or that.

My thoughts are, and my thoughts are completely irrelevant, Yang Guo cannot have both the Sad Palms and the Heavy Iron Sword. When he was training and advancing his martial arts, I think he was at an intersection in martial arts. Was he going in the direction of Dugu Qiubai or was he going in something of his own creation fusing various styles into one. I think he went for the latter. To use the English phrase:” You can’t have your cake and eat it” applies to post-16 years Yang Guo.

Again, I don’t have any evidence. To quote someone:” I don’t know it for a fact, but I just know it is true.’ has sometimes become my internalization of martial arts levels in novels.

[Ken Cheng]

You basically yada-yada-ed over my entire post and told me to indulge your hypothetical which I disagree. If I do give you my mathematical haphazard guess, then my previous post might as well be deleted?

It's started to remind me of Fox News.

[EdenResident]

Sad Palms and HIS are mutually exclusive. You can't use HIS to power up your Sad Palms. Doesn't work that way. Once Yang Guo picked his path to Great hood, he abandoned the HIS because it would actually hinder his progress. If it didn't, he would have incorporated it into his Sad palms, something like Sad sword.

Regardless, who, among Great-level fighters, uses a special weapon like the HIS, the Dragon blade, or the Heaven Sword? None.

Back to the GJ vs. YG battle, Sad Palms are equal to Dragon Palms. Nothing more, nothing less. The author indicated so in many places. Oh and YG also needs to be sad. A happy YG might lose to GJ.

[FeilongZ]

You basically yada-yada-ed over my entire post and told me to indulge your hypothetical which I disagree. If I do give you my mathematical haphazard guess, then my previous post might as well be deleted?

I am on the side that Guo Jing and Yang Guo are around the same level. I may not have proof and probably there isn’t proof of that, but it works in my ‘head canon’. To echo Bathes’ essay ‘The Death of the Author’, we do have autonomy to think differently even if the ‘tyrannical’ author says this or that.

My thoughts are, and my thoughts are completely irrelevant, Yang Guo cannot have both the Sad Palms and the Heavy Iron Sword. When he was training and advancing his martial arts, I think he was at an intersection in martial arts. Was he going in the direction of Dugu Qiubai or was he going in something of his own creation fusing various styles into one. I think he went for the latter. To use the English phrase:” You can’t have your cake and eat it” applies to post-16 years Yang Guo.

Again, I don’t have any evidence. To quote someone:” I don’t know it for a fact, but I just know it is true.’ has sometimes become my internalization of martial arts levels in novels.

Fair game
Actually I enjoyed your all of your posts.
They were well written and with a lot of knowledge.

I think if Jinyong decided to show Yang Guo equipped with the Heavy Iron Sword instead of creating and using Sad Palms, YG would most likely steamrolled all of his opponents. That would not be too creative of Jinyong and would not make the final fight against Jinlun Fawang as dramatic.

Thank you for your reply since I didn't expect a response from a prestigious, philosophical writer like you

[Athena]

Fair game
Actually I enjoyed your all of your posts.
They were well written and with a lot of knowledge.

I think if Jinyong decided to show Yang Guo equipped with the Heavy Iron Sword instead of creating and using Sad Palms, YG would most likely steamrolled all of his opponents. That would not be too creative of Jinyong and would not make the final fight against Jinlun Fawang as dramatic.

Thank you for your reply since I didn't expect a response from a prestigious, philosophical writer like you

Now you are giving me too much credit. I do like that you have brought the forum alive again.

[FeilongZ]

Now you are giving me too much credit. I do like that you have brought the forum alive again.

I do miss the days that the forum was full of Wuxia debates, novices against experts, very engaging and at times hilarious.

[Western Eccentric]

Sad Palms and HIS are mutually exclusive. You can't use HIS to power up your Sad Palms. Doesn't work that way. Once Yang Guo picked his path to Great hood, he abandoned the HIS because it would actually hinder his progress. If it didn't, he would have incorporated it into his Sad palms, something like Sad sword.

Regardless, who, among Great-level fighters, uses a special weapon like the HIS, the Dragon blade, or the Heaven Sword? None.

Back to the GJ vs. YG battle, Sad Palms are equal to Dragon Palms. Nothing more, nothing less. The author indicated so in many places. Oh and YG also needs to be sad. A happy YG might lose to GJ.

Yeeep no one Greats use "special weapon" like HIS but DGQB did which I think he is stronger than YG and Greats when he use it in his 30s and also no one "complain" about it since JY himself still regards him as a "Demonic Swordsman" so like I said before use a special weapon was "useless" if you don't know how to "maximaze" the weapon especially something like HIS only someone who know the secret "simplicity bring superiority" could use HIS "properly"..