Why Was Guo Jing Not Already Invincible in the Condor Heroes Trilogy?

[xiaop]

Guo Jing he had the complete version of the 9 Yin manual in his hands. So why did he not attain complete mastery of it? He was not stronger than the Greats also.

Its like he just left his skills to gather dust after LOTC.

It also is implied that at the end of ROTC, Golden Wheel Monk has surpassed all the greats including Guo Jing.

Given that he also translated the 9 Yin Manual to Hong Qi Gong and Yi Deng, you will think that they had the potential to be invincible in the novel also.

Huang Rong also knew the 9 Yin manual, but she never attained mastery of it either. In fact she was a league below the top pugilists.

Also, why did Guo Jing and Huang Rong not impart the 9 Yin manual to their disciples also? Aside from Yelu Qi, the Wu brothers, the Guo siblings were only average fighters.

You will think that had the Guo family all knew the 9 Yin manual, they probably would not have died from their battle with the Mongolians.

Any ideas?

[Western Eccentric]

Sori but who say JLFW was better than Greats/GJ..

[Ken Cheng]

Nobody in wuxia is truly invincible...not even the Janitor Monk. However, by the time of ROCH, you would struggle to find anybody in the wulin of Gwok Jing's time who could definitively defeat him in a fair, one-on-one fight. That's not bad for a guy who, early in life, had been judged a hopelessly slow learner. Perhaps he would have gotten farther if he were more intelligent.

And again, Jin Yong seemed determined that among the L/ROCH Greats, aside from Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung in the pre-LOCH period, none of the Greats would be too far ahead of the others. Even Gwok Jing's "superiority" to the senior Greats was defined more by the fact that he had reached their level twenty years earlier in life than they had, and still had the stamina of relative youth on his side (whereas the seniors had started to decline from old age), rather than out-and-out heads and shoulders superiority.

[FeilongZ]

Sori but who say JLFW was better than Greats/GJ..

There no conclusive evidence that Jinlun Fawang was better than the old Great.
Power-wise (internal, palms) he is greater.
Moreover, he has a high chance of defeating any old Great beacause of their old age.

Against Guo Jing, Jinlun Fawang would have the palm/internal advantage due to his 10th level of Dragon Elephant Prana Palms.
However, technique-wise, GJ has the advantage of 9yin.

Overall, Jinlun Fawang ~ Guo Jing based on my analysis, and they never fought each other post-16, so just speculation.
It would take >1000 stances to decide a victor or both might perish during the fight.

[FeilongZ]

There no conclusive evidence that Jinlun Fawang was better than the old Great.
Power-wise (internal, palms) he is greater.
Moreover, he has a high chance of defeating any old Great beacause of their old age.

Against Guo Jing, Jinlun Fawang would have the palm/internal advantage due to his 10th level of Dragon Elephant Prana Palms.
However, technique-wise, GJ has the advantage of 9yin.

Overall, Jinlun Fawang ~ Guo Jing based on my analysis, and they never fought each other post-16, so just speculation.
It would take >1000 stances to decide a victor or both might perish during the fight.

Further thoughts:
I wonder how the old Greats like Yideng and HYS would be able to withand post-16 Jinlun Fawang's direct palms if they fight, since they don't have a palm technique like Dragon palms or Iron palms.
I know ZBT uses vacant fists to nullify/neutralize Fawang's palms, but ZBT was put in a defensive mode and cannot strike back.

[Ken Cheng]

Further thoughts:
I wonder how the old Greats like Yideng and HYS would be able to withand post-16 Jinlun Fawang's direct palms if they fight, since they don't have a palm technique like Dragon palms or Iron palms.

You fight smart and don't pit your weaknesses against the enemy's strengths (the Golden Wheel Monk often does this, which is one reason he loses fights he can win). If I'm 1 Deng, I'm not competing palms against the Golden Wheel Monk because that's his forte, not mine. I dodge the palms and get him in range of 1 Yeung Finger. Now that's MY wheelhouse. Fighters who understand this will have an advantage over those who don't (or choose to ignore it).

I know ZBT uses vacant fists to nullify/neutralize Fawang's palms, but ZBT was put in a defensive mode and cannot strike back.

Chow Bak Tung was likely surprised because he had fought the Golden Wheel Monk before, but not *this* Golden Wheel Monk whose inner power had grown so much in the interim. Nevertheless, adjusting on the fly is one of Chow Bak Tung's talents (and not one of the Golden Wheel Monk's). As long as CBT can avoid getting KO'd quickly (no guarantee, I admit), then he can adapt and turn the tide in his favor.

[FeilongZ]

You fight smart and don't pit your weaknesses against the enemy's strengths (the Golden Wheel Monk often does this, which is one reason he loses fights he can win). If I'm 1 Deng, I'm not competing palms against the Golden Wheel Monk because that's his forte, not mine. I dodge the palms and get him in range of 1 Yeung Finger. Now that's MY wheelhouse. Fighters who understand this will have an advantage over those who don't (or choose to ignore it).



Chow Bak Tung was likely surprised because he had fought the Golden Wheel Monk before, but not *this* Golden Wheel Monk whose inner power had grown so much in the interim. Nevertheless, adjusting on the fly is one of Chow Bak Tung's talents (and not one of the Golden Wheel Monk's). As long as CBT can avoid getting KO'd quickly (no guarantee, I admit), then he can adapt and turn the tide in his favor.

If I had to pick in a death fight between post-16 Fawang and one of the old Greats or ZBT, I would pick Fawang as the victor, within to >= few hundred stances, quicker vs the old Greats and longer vs ZBT.
Who are you picking?

[Ken Cheng]

If I had to pick in a death fight between post-16 Fawang and one of the old Greats or ZBT, I would pick Fawang as the victor, within to >= few hundred stances, quicker vs the old Greats and longer vs ZBT.
Who are you picking?

Old Greats. They're smarter than he is and won't choke away the fight. The Golden Wheel Monk's improvement in inner power didn't address his biggest weakness: he fights stupid, and that will lose him more fights no matter how much his power increases.

[FeilongZ]

Old Greats. They're smarter than he is and won't choke away the fight. The Golden Wheel Monk's improvement in inner power didn't address his biggest weakness: he fights stupid, and that will lose him more fights no matter how much his power increases.

Yes, Fawang only weakness is his techniques.
His internal energy improved tremendously (doubled) but I think his techniques did not improved that much.
I think on average, most posters will pick Fawang against the old Greats probably base on stamina alone.

On the other hand, how do you think:
-the old Greats
-ZBT
-GJ
would do against Fawang in the Final battle on the burning platform and trying to save GX, without Fawang cheating?

[Ken Cheng]

Yes, Fawang only weakness is his techniques.

Poor techniques (compared to the Greats', at least; they're mostly effective against sub-Great fighters), cowardice, and generally being an idiot in fights. A recipe for failure if there ever was one.

His internal energy improved tremendously (doubled) but I think his techniques did not improved that much.
I think on average, most posters will pick Fawang against the old Greats probably base on stamina alone.

I kind of take the "doubled his power" thing with a grain of salt, and feel that Jin Yong might have meant it more figuratively (and hyperbolically) than literally. None of the existing Greats doubled his inner power during that same interim, and yet, they weren't exactly grossly weaker than the monk in inner power even after the sixteen years.

On the other hand, how do you think:
-the old Greats
-ZBT
-GJ
would do against Fawang in the Final battle on the burning platform and trying to save GX, without Fawang cheating?

Pretty well. I think each one has a decent chance of winning.

[Ken Cheng]

...and yeah...I don't have much faith in the Golden Wheel Monk as a fighter, same as many other folks don't have much faith in Cheung Mo Gei as a fighter. For different reasons, these two guys have a long history of pulling defeat out of the jaws of victory.

[FeilongZ]

Poor techniques (compared to the Greats', at least; they're mostly effective against sub-Great fighters), cowardice, and generally being an idiot in fights. A recipe for failure if there ever was one.



I kind of take the "doubled his power" thing with a grain of salt, and feel that Jin Yong might have meant it more figuratively (and hyperbolically) than literally. None of the existing Greats doubled his inner power during that same interim, and yet, they weren't exactly grossly weaker than the monk in inner power even after the sixteen years.



Pretty well. I think each one has a decent chance of winning.

Highly possible outcomes:
-the old Greats: old Greats dead
-ZBT: ZBT dead
-GJ: GJ dead or both GJ and Fawang die from fight injuries or fight lasting over 300 stances and both consumed by the fire along with GX.

[Western Eccentric]

...and yeah...I don't have much faith in the Golden Wheel Monk as a fighter, same as many other folks don't have much faith in Cheung Mo Gei as a fighter. For different reasons, these two guys have a long history of pulling defeat out of the jaws of victory.

The baldy monk might be doesn't impressed us but he is impressing YG at least 😀😀😀😀

Fawang was standing above and if he used his wheels to fight he would have to bend over and that would put him at a disadvantage. Furthermore his wheels were shorter than the sword, so he turned around and decided to go back up to the platform again. Yang Guo raised his sword and attacked him ferociously from behind; every stance was swift as lightning. Fawang did not turn around but used his ears to determine where the attacks came from. He used a wheel to block every stance; it was as though he had eyes on the back of his head. Yang Guo praised him, “Damn monk; very impressive!”

[FeilongZ]

The baldy monk might be doesn't impressed us but he is impressing YG at least 😀😀😀😀

Fawang was standing above and if he used his wheels to fight he would have to bend over and that would put him at a disadvantage. Furthermore his wheels were shorter than the sword, so he turned around and decided to go back up to the platform again. Yang Guo raised his sword and attacked him ferociously from behind; every stance was swift as lightning. Fawang did not turn around but used his ears to determine where the attacks came from. He used a wheel to block every stance; it was as though he had eyes on the back of his head. Yang Guo praised him, “Damn monk; very impressive!”

Yes, this is one of Fawang's defining moments, not many of these moments
I guess his techniques somewhat improved.

[Ken Cheng]

The baldy monk might be doesn't impressed us but he is impressing YG at least 😀😀😀😀

Fawang was standing above and if he used his wheels to fight he would have to bend over and that would put him at a disadvantage. Furthermore his wheels were shorter than the sword, so he turned around and decided to go back up to the platform again. Yang Guo raised his sword and attacked him ferociously from behind; every stance was swift as lightning. Fawang did not turn around but used his ears to determine where the attacks came from. He used a wheel to block every stance; it was as though he had eyes on the back of his head. Yang Guo praised him, “Damn monk; very impressive!”

Like Chow Bak Tung, Yeung Gor momentarily underestimated the monk after having not seen him in such a long time. It wouldn't last.

[EdenResident]

LOL Completely revamped, inner-power doubled, post-16 Baldy took ONE WHOLE DAY to defeat an old, out-of-shape QQR who had already lost all of his mojo and killer instinct. In contrast, ZBT humiliated an in-his-prime QQR to the point where QQR had to run away. Seriously, if you're even a first rate pugilist, you stay and fight to your death and you don't runaway. That was just to show how mentally weak QQR was. And Baldy took one whole day to beat that same mentally weak old guy who had been further demoralized from all his penitence.

People who could defeat QQR in less than 200 stances at that point:
ZBT (obviously)
GJ
YG
HYS
Jue Yuan
YD might need around 500-1000 stances as he also had stopped training. But he would not need a day to beat QQR.

Like Ken said, Baldy is a horrible fighter who fights stupid. Even pre-16, his inner power and palm strength were already higher than the old Greats and more than enough for him to at least draw against them if he wasn't just a horrendous choker. The increase in inner power post-16 didn't do much for him as he did not fix his one glaring weakness: his stupidity. Seriously, what was he thinking when he fought Xiaolongnu? All he had to do was palm blast her back to the tomb but noooo, he just had to out-quick her instead.

In any case, not to beat an already decomposed horse but any old Greats would wreck GWM if they fought.

[FeilongZ]

LOL Completely revamped, inner-power doubled, post-16 Baldy took ONE WHOLE DAY to defeat an old, out-of-shape QQR who had already lost all of his mojo and killer instinct. In contrast, ZBT humiliated an in-his-prime QQR to the point where QQR had to run away. Seriously, if you're even a first rate pugilist, you stay and fight to your death and you don't runaway. That was just to show how mentally weak QQR was. And Baldy took one whole day to beat that same mentally weak old guy who had been further demoralized from all his penitence.

People who could defeat QQR in less than 200 stances at that point:
ZBT (obviously)
GJ
YG
HYS
Jue Yuan
YD might need around 500-1000 stances as he also had stopped training. But he would not need a day to beat QQR.

Like Ken said, Baldy is a horrible fighter who fights stupid. Even pre-16, his inner power and palm strength were already higher than the old Greats and more than enough for him to at least draw against them if he wasn't just a horrendous choker. The increase in inner power post-16 didn't do much for him as he did not fix his one glaring weakness: his stupidity. Seriously, what was he thinking when he fought Xiaolongnu? All he had to do was palm blast her back to the tomb but noooo, he just had to out-quick her instead.

In any case, not to beat an already decomposed horse but any old Greats would wreck GWM if they fought.

Jueyuan beating Jinlun Fawang. False.
This guy mastered 9yang but have no real kung fu (fighting skills).

[Ken Cheng]

LOL Completely revamped, inner-power doubled, post-16 Baldy took ONE WHOLE DAY to defeat an old, out-of-shape QQR who had already lost all of his mojo and killer instinct. In contrast, ZBT humiliated an in-his-prime QQR to the point where QQR had to run away. Seriously, if you're even a first rate pugilist, you stay and fight to your death and you don't runaway. That was just to show how mentally weak QQR was. And Baldy took one whole day to beat that same mentally weak old guy who had been further demoralized from all his penitence.

People who could defeat QQR in less than 200 stances at that point:
ZBT (obviously)
GJ
YG
HYS
Jue Yuan
YD might need around 500-1000 stances as he also had stopped training. But he would not need a day to beat QQR.

Like Ken said, Baldy is a horrible fighter who fights stupid. Even pre-16, his inner power and palm strength were already higher than the old Greats and more than enough for him to at least draw against them if he wasn't just a horrendous choker. The increase in inner power post-16 didn't do much for him as he did not fix his one glaring weakness: his stupidity. Seriously, what was he thinking when he fought Xiaolongnu? All he had to do was palm blast her back to the tomb but noooo, he just had to out-quick her instead.

In any case, not to beat an already decomposed horse but any old Greats would wreck GWM if they fought.

Gok Yeun of Shaolin was an inner power powerhouse, but I get the feeling that his external fighting techniques were unremarkable. Can he beat Kau Cheen Yan given the disparity of technique level?

[Western Eccentric]

YG indeed could beat QQR within 💯 moves even fewer while the baldy monk could "hold his own" against YG for almost 300 moves and you still consider JLFW "creepy fighter" well tell to me now how much people you think could last for 300 moves against end-ROCH YG in Trilogy..

[Western Eccentric]

Gok Yeun of Shaolin was an inner power powerhouse, but I get the feeling that his external fighting techniques were unremarkable. Can he beat Kau Cheen Yan given the disparity of technique level?

Yeeep except they going in internal contest which I think Jueyuan marginally outshine Greats..