Guo Jing/Yang Guo v Zhang Sanfeng/Zhang Wuji

[ChineseChik525]

whoa. were we supposed to pick based on fighting ability? i just chose yk cause he's hot
although alec su's zwj comes pretty close...
but then they also had hu ge as gj in the new version! so yk/gj still wins. LOL

[jackattack]

Seriously guys, Zhang Wuji is sooo overrated. He got his butt handed to him, TWICE, by Zhou Zhen Ruo, who barely studied the 9 yin manual. At MOST Zhou Zhen Ruo is about Mei Chao Feng's level. And people like Guo Jing and Yang Guo could KO Mei Chao Feng easily in 2 stances.......

And dont tell me it was because Zhang Wuji was going easy. The last encounter they had, he was. But prior to that ZWJ had several fights with Zhou Zhen Ruo and he always ended up in a bloody mess. The fact ZWJ even had ANY difficulties with a Mei Chao Feng leveled character proves that he does not stand a chance against the likes of Yang Guo. Zhang Wuji is just too inexperienced and naive to be a real threat to people like Guo Jing and Yang Guo who have been through so much.

The wild card here is Zhang San Feng. This guy has over 100 years of fighting experience and philosophy. But I think if Yang Guo uses his heavy iron sword, Z3F would have trouble taking care of the massive internal energy released by Yang Guo. Guo Jing would take care of Zhang Wu Ji, and then together, even Z3F cannot prevail.

[yittz]

lol epic ZWJ < MCF, where does that leave the rest of characters in HSDS?

Which tvb trash is this from?

[Dirt]

Quite the flood of ZWJ hate.

[LuNaR]

Seriously guys, Zhang Wuji is sooo overrated. He got his butt handed to him, TWICE, by Zhou Zhen Ruo, who barely studied the 9 yin manual. At MOST Zhou Zhen Ruo is about Mei Chao Feng's level. And people like Guo Jing and Yang Guo could KO Mei Chao Feng easily in 2 stances.......

And dont tell me it was because Zhang Wuji was going easy. The last encounter they had, he was. But prior to that ZWJ had several fights with Zhou Zhen Ruo and he always ended up in a bloody mess. The fact ZWJ even had ANY difficulties with a Mei Chao Feng leveled character proves that he does not stand a chance against the likes of Yang Guo. Zhang Wuji is just too inexperienced and naive to be a real threat to people like Guo Jing and Yang Guo who have been through so much.

The wild card here is Zhang San Feng. This guy has over 100 years of fighting experience and philosophy. But I think if Yang Guo uses his heavy iron sword, Z3F would have trouble taking care of the massive internal energy released by Yang Guo. Guo Jing would take care of Zhang Wu Ji, and then together, even Z3F cannot prevail.

hehehe

[Dirt]

I can see how ZWJ could have some problems with the complexity of Sad Palms, though I think Taichi Quan is more than a match for it. HIS and XL18Z are about as direct as you can get with martial arts. ZWJ would have no problems holding his own against Guo Jing and Yang Guo. Most people obsess over ZWJ's early performances, however, by the end of the book, ZWJ had learned much and even Fan Yao admitted that he wished that ZWJ could become his master. By the end of the book, ZWJ EASILY defeated Xuan Ming 2 Lao. The 3 Du Monks had nothing but admiration for ZWJ; Wuji could have obliterated them but didn't.

Guo Jing was a hero of the nation, Yang Guo was a hero for the people. Zhang Wuji was a peacemaker. But that didn't mean he couldn't kick ***.

[jackattack]

lol epic ZWJ < MCF, where does that leave the rest of characters in HSDS?

Which tvb trash is this from?

I never said Zhang Wu Ji would have lost to Mei Chao Feng. If you read my post carefully, then you should know that all I was saying was, if Zhang Wu Ji has trouble with Zhou Zhen RUo, then he definitely would have trouble against Mei Chao Feng, which is not a good thing because people like Yang Guo and Guo Jing could KO Mei Chao Feng in less then 2 stances.

[yittz]

Nor did I. Read your own post again.

"He got his butt handed to him, TWICE, by Zhou Zhen Ruo ... At MOST Zhou Zhen Ruo is about Mei Chao Feng's level."

Why can't I interpret that as ZWJ<MCF?

Maybe if you examine the text it will explain to you why ZWJ 'lost' to ZZR, and you wouldn't underate him to the point of having trouble with MCF level characters.

[jackattack]

Nor did I. Read your own post again.

"He got his butt handed to him, TWICE, by Zhou Zhen Ruo ... At MOST Zhou Zhen Ruo is about Mei Chao Feng's level."

Why can't I interpret that as ZWJ<MCF?

Maybe if you examine the text it will explain to you why ZWJ 'lost' to ZZR, and you wouldn't underate him to the point of having trouble with MCF level characters.

Interpret what I said however you want. But, what I said was true. Did Zhou Zhen Ruo make a bloody mess out of Zhang Wuji on two separate ocasions??? YES. Do Zhou Zhen Ruo and Mei Chao Feng use the same skills, but Mei Chao Feng has learned the skills longer??? YES. Can Mei Chao Feng give Yang Guo and Guo Jing any trouble???? NO.

If the above three points are agreed, then it should be realized that Zhou Zhen Ruo does not pose a threat whatsoever against fighting machines like Guo Jing and Yang Guo.

[Ken Cheng]

Interpret what I said however you want. But, what I said was true. Did Zhou Zhen Ruo make a bloody mess out of Zhang Wuji on two separate ocasions??? YES. Do Zhou Zhen Ruo and Mei Chao Feng use the same skills, but Mei Chao Feng has learned the skills longer??? YES. Can Mei Chao Feng give Yang Guo and Guo Jing any trouble???? NO.

If the above three points are agreed, then it should be realized that Zhou Zhen Ruo does not pose a threat whatsoever against fighting machines like Guo Jing and Yang Guo.

That's because to Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor, Chow Chi Yerk means nothing: she's just another woman, and an evil one at that. They'd fight her with the same ferocity they'd fight against Mui Chiu Fung or Lee Mok Sau.

Chow Chi Yerk meant something very different to Cheung Mo Gei. He had no desire to harm her, and even felt guilty for triggering what he viewed as her transformation into an evil figure. If Cheung Mo Gei had the same feeling towards Chow Chi Yerk that he had towards, say, Sing Kwun, he would have reduced her to a grease smear.

[hasium]

YEAH GUO JING FOR THE WIN. I didn't watch Return of the Condor Heroes so I don't really know how powerful Yang Guo is. But I'm pretty sure they'll win, since Guo Jing has learnt more techniques and obtained a good standing in internal energy to surpass Zhang Wu Di. Zhang San Feng, he's old, need I say more?

[hasium]

You made good observations about the weaknessess of a multi-person formation but in the 3 monks and the quanzhen 7 daoists' cases, I think that JY makes it clear that it was a strength to have multiple people and not a weakness because they worked so well together. Especially in the case of the 3 monks, there was not a weak link because whenever one was attacked, the other two would time a counterattack perfectly. There was no weakness in the 3 monks' fighting style, the only way to be them was to be even more powerful. In the case of monks, it wasn't 1+1+1=3, their increase in power together was more exponential.

I agreed that Cheung Mo Gei does suffer from a lack of battle experience compared to GJ and YG because the only really elite foes he had were the 3 monks. CMG/ZWJ is also by far the most merciful fighter and almost got himself killed several times because he got sneak attacked by people that he spared. In a fight against GJ/YG, this mercy might hurt him.

In terms of technique, ZWJ might end up being far greater than GJ and YG. At first, I thought that GJ/YG would have an edge on ZWJ because of their versatile backgrounds. But I just remember that at the end, ZWJ also received the complete copy of the 9yin manual, making him the only person other than GJ to have the 9yin manual. With the combination of yin and yan, and Z3F's Tai Chi, it's not hard to fathom that ZWJ might even beat both YG and GJ by himself. If you're just talking about the characters during the time in the book then ZWJ might be weaker than YG or GJ but logically, n terms of how they'll progress, it would seem that ZWJ would attain a much higher level than both of them.

Of course GJ still possess the dual-hand technique and YG the iron sword techiques, but a 9yin + 9yan combination is probably near invincible which is probably why JY waited till the end for ZWJ to gain posession of the 9yin manual.
I'm still not quite sure who would win a fight but I just think that ZWJ is severly overrated by some people on this board. It's clear that JY meant for the 9yin and 9yan martials arts to be at the pinnacle of what martial arts can reach, and someone with the posession of both arts can probably jump over the ocean.

I just want to applaud you, that is SOME high level analysis. But you wrote that in the long run. In terms of economics, long-run growth is always more significant. However with his current state, Guo Jing and Yang Guo, with their superior power and attained skills at the END of novel, can defeat Zhang Wu Di, who at the end of the novel did not obtain the ultimate power yet.

[Pa Yang]

It's hard to do this accurately because the fact that Chow Chi Yerk was not as powerful as she appeared was told through the third-person omniscient narrator (Jin Yong), which doesn't exist in a television series or movie (unless it's really, really corny). By all appearances, Chow Chi Yerk must seem to the other characters (and thus, to the audience) to be as powerful as Cheung Mo Gei, even though she in fact is not.

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, I don't get why ZWJ admitted defeat against her at the end unless he thought it was some way to make up for leaving their attempted marriage. This really disappointed me because it shows he can't get over ZZR. ZWJ practiced for like 5 years or more and she only practiced for, I don't know, some kind of months and she is more powerful than him?

[ChanceEncounter]

ZZR's internal was clearly mentioned to be far less than the Wudang heroes, who were but a fraction of great level internal at that point in the novel. ZWJ should have no problem with her, but ZWJ has shown on several occasions to struggle against "weird" techniques.

Unfortunately, he's likely matched up with someone in this thread (YG) who specializes in weird techniques, combined with great level internal to back it up. GJ and YG were mentioned as the two figures with the strongest palm strength at the end or ROCH (though JLGS is probably also up there). Also, great level matches almost always come down to bouts of internal energy. ZSF would probably struggle in a prolonged bout of internal simply because of his age. I imagine he would wear down if pressed by either GJ or YG.

YG is arguably a matchup nightmare for ZWJ. He's very fast, very strong, and has a variety of weird and unpredictable stances. ZWJ was handled by unfamiliar stances on several occasions (against ZZR and the Persians, for example). If it weren't for his huge advantage in internal against those respective foes, ZWJ would likely have been killed or maimed. He won't have a big advantage in internal against either GJ or YG. All of them would be more or less equal in internal strength.

[goodrick]

lol epic ZWJ < MCF, where does that leave the rest of characters in HSDS?

Which tvb trash is this from?

[Ken Cheng]

Yeah, I was thinking about that too, I don't get why ZWJ admitted defeat against her at the end unless he thought it was some way to make up for leaving their attempted marriage. This really disappointed me because it shows he can't get over ZZR. ZWJ practiced for like 5 years or more and she only practiced for, I don't know, some kind of months and she is more powerful than him?

Chow Chi Yerk had Tse Tsun's life in her hands. As powerful as Cheung Mo Gei was, he couldn't risk his adoptive father's life on a miscalculation.

[CancerLuna]

But what kind of "what ifs "are there for GJ and YG? I would speculate on those two as well but we are not made aware of anything new they've learned at the end. We can also speculate on Lin Huchun since he gets YJJ at the end, or XZ who marries the princess at the end and therefore also comes into posession of Li Cho Sui's martial arts on the wall of the palace.

Very late but,
GJ had quanzhen increasing his internal everyday
YG didn't even master wooden sword yet, much less no sword, and I believe he also attained 9yin, by how things went in hsds, edit: yg actually has quanzhen internal too
ZWJ of course got 9yin, but his biggest what if would probably be how much experience he got after retirement, or who can even give him worthwhile experience

[minutemanwayne]

Very late but,
GJ had quanzhen increasing his internal everyday
YG didn't even master wooden sword yet, much less no sword, and I believe he also attained 9yin, by how things went in hsds, edit: yg actually has quanzhen internal too
ZWJ of course got 9yin, but his biggest what if would probably be how much experience he got after retirement, or who can even give him worthwhile experience

Nobody because he left with Zhao Min to brush her hair so no Zhang Sangfeng to give him pointers. Zhang Wuji might of had some bad moments but you guys tend to forget the fact that he whooped the Xuan Ming elders within 30 stances. Not to mention at the end he eradicated their toxi cold yin poison. Zhang Wuji just lacks experience. He was never mention to be a fighter, But with his arsenal of powerful martial arts he can keep up with the Original Greats, but would probably lose to Guo Jing and Yang Guo

[tape]

THe Du Monks are better than the XM elders, and they are at best 30% of a Great. This makes the XM elders 20-25% of a Great, so beating them two within 30 stances doesn't seem too impressive for me.

Guo Jing was estimated to be at 70% of a Great, and Hong Qigong thought he could bowl him over with one stance if he really wanted to. This makes me think Hong Qigong could bowl them both over in one or two stances.

[remixedasian]

THe Du Monks are better than the XM elders, and they are at best 30% of a Great. This makes the XM elders 20-25% of a Great, so beating them two within 30 stances doesn't seem too impressive for me.

Guo Jing was estimated to be at 70% of a Great, and Hong Qigong thought he could bowl him over with one stance if he really wanted to. This makes me think Hong Qigong could bowl them both over in one or two stances.

I'm not so sure Wuxia math has ever applied in Jin Yong's world, especially for formations.
And for point 2, didn't H7G (and HYS/OYF as well) think that he should be able to win number 1 at Hua Shan Part 2?