The *Official* Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor Debate

[sixdays]

Originally posted by Dirt
Though he was never able to toy with any of the Greats.

except if you count GWM --- YG toyed with him all the time. also, he played around with ZBT all the time and also with HYS. although he didn't "toy" with them, per se...

[Dirt]

Between GJ, YG and ZWJ, I believe only YG would have been able to achieve Great status without a 'shen gong'.

That's what makes the Greats so great and on par with Xiao Feng. They were all able to be Great without 'shen gong'.

[Top Dog]

Originally posted by superboy
Similar thoughts after all . Anyway, in the department of learning martial arts, I personally think that GJ shows us that he is quite talented. At sometimes it seems like he's clueless, but other times he can learn it faster and use it better than others could ever hope to. It is of course true that having a high IQ is a Great advantage in learning martial arts, but it is not neccesary. XF, although seems to process intelligence, isn't any great genius. But his talents in learning martial arts surpasses anyone.

Right. That's why GJ did not get the most out of the 9 Yum. Because if he did, he would be a level higher than the Greats.

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by Dirt
Between GJ, YG and ZWJ, I believe only YG would have been able to achieve Great status without a 'shen gong'.

That's what makes the Greats so great and on par with Xiao Feng. They were all able to be Great without 'shen gong'.

I disagree, without encountering the Iron Sword and all of its benefits, which includes not only its techniques but its deeper martial arts philosophies, YG could have never developed his Sad Palms and we would not be having this debate. I place YG's Iron Sword as a "Shen Gong" as well, up there with GJ's 9 Yin, ZWJ's 9 Yang, LHC's DG9J, and whatever else DY mastered.

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by Top Dog
Right. That's why GJ did not get the most out of the 9 Yum. Because if he did, he would be a level higher than the Greats.

Does the fact that GJ was not much better than the other Greats at the end of RoCH have anything to do with them learning some of 9 Yin as well? H7G, Yi Deng, OYF, ZBT, and HYS all had been exposed to 9 Yin (not to mention YG as well). Factor that into your analysis please.

[philip]

originally posted by Ken Chang Yeh Lut Chai spent sixteen years learning/practicing the Hong Lung 18 Palms. There is some debate as to whether or not he finished learning them. In any case, he did not approach the level of his father-in-law (Gwok Jing) in this martial art.

See For Lung, Beggar's Union Chief during HSDS, spent upwards of twenty years learning only twelve of the eighteen palms, and he never succeeded.

As far as we know, only three people ever truly mastered the Hong Lung 18 Palms: Kiu Fung, North Beggar Hung 7 Gung, and Gwok Jing.

did YLC really spend 16 years to practice XL18Z?
GJ has 9 yin…unfortunately, I don’t think he taught his son in law very much 9 yin.
All the beggars in between H7G and XF also had to know all of the XL18Z, shouldn’t they?

originally posted by superboy Cause, arguments on GJ and YG lead to you to believe that mastery would slow a person down. On GLFW, if you guys didn't know, I only said that GLFW's energy was around equal to H7G and OYF. Anyway, if we consider GLFW to not be lower than QQR at the start of ROCH, then he is at Great level. After all, YG did thought that out of th three people that can severely injure QQR with a palm is GLFW, so his martial arts is probably somewhere there. And still, I have no idea where the part that GJ's internal energy was stated to be slightly less than GLFW. Can you give me a reference.
There is an explaination if you would jst except it. If we count GJ's rate in LOCH as bad adjustments, cause it sure does look like it if we look at the speeds of others, than it sortd of explains it. ANd if GJ did continue to improve like 3-5 % gain on the Greats like he did, then that would explain how he wasn't in a totally different league when he met GLFW. I thought that is the logical way to explain things, cause 9 Yin is obviously a better cultivation, and the Greats should be behind GJ at the end due to this reason.

again:
If this is the YG vs. GJ thread…and we have proof that their improvements both slowed down, then why are we arguing about the general on THIS thread? The point has already been taken, and you do agree that GJ’s rate slowed (no matter what the reason).

Sure bad adjustment sounds reasonable…then may I ask you how do you know that GJ “adjusted” back by the end of ROCH? How can you be so sure that he didn’t continue on w/ the “badly adjusted” rate (in 4 years of YG’s absence”?)

GJ being slightly weaker than GLFW in terms of internal energy was stated during the hero’s feast.

originally posted by Moinllieon Even Ma Yu himself stated outright that the fault GJ's lack of progress lies not with him but solely upon his teachers. You cannot use the fact that he couldn't learn anything from terrible masters who did not know how to teach to prove his diefficiency in learning.

There's several things that points to the fact that GJ learned XL18Z way too fast for anyone to expect, most of which have been pointed out by Ken Cheng. (BTW, Ken, it was stated that Ye Lu Cia could not master 18 Dragon Palms, at least in the 2nd version of HSDS. I've also heard that Xu Zhu would become a master of the the 18 Dragon Palms in the 3rd edition, but still throughout, only the best of the best have been able to master it.)

Another one was H7G's own reaction. When he asked GJ who his masters were initially, GJ told him the 7 Freaks (neglection Ma Yu, who wasn't a teacher). However, after teaching him for a while, H7G accused GJ of lying to him, because he's convinced that because GJ was making such great progress he must have had received much more advanced training than he let on. It was only until GJ explained his connection with Ma Yu did H7G believe him again. H7G would never have had that reaction had GJ not been progressing amazingly.

In fact, all signs points to the fact that GJ was an amazing learner of martial arts, picking up ideas and philosophy on the fly and at great speed, and is more than a match for YG in that category. Look, I can't say which is better between the 2 fighters, but it's just wrong to argue that YG is better on the premise that GJ is a slow learner when he simply was not.

Ma Yu said 7 freaks were not good teachers and it wasn’t completely GJ’s fault…but if GJ was indeed ingenious, then he should’ve shown more progress, shouldn’t he? I mean, right in the start, we see zhu cong teach Tuolui and GJ three stances. Tuolei had no problem learning the stances but GJ just stared into the blank.

If H7G was convinced by knowing that GJ learned QZ art rather than only 7 freak art…isn’t it more of GJ’s base rather than his talent that is taken into consideration? So is learning XL18Z a question on ability to learn or kung fu base? and while, GJ was learning XL18Z, it was mentioned that he had bad "comprehension" but managed to learn them decently becasuse he worked extra hard.
Is picking up philosophy from being told about the philosophy or coming up with it on his own?

Just to clarify things…I don’t think “learning talent” has anything to do with who was better at the end of ROCH, cuz both has pretty much finished learning what they can by then.

originally posted by TaiHan
well, you got to know that GJ know no basic martial art before the 7 Freaks. All he would ever know is from the Freak, so how could he understand something if he have no background in. He also never saw martial artist fight like it is everyday life. He wouldn't know if he is practicing it wrong or right. It is kind of like driving, one must be a passenger first to observe a driver. An example is SPT who was taught the Yin and Yang comb internal energy the wrong way, SPT have no clue it was wrong. Most of all the Freak didn't explain anything to GJ; they just show him how to do it. One cannot learn through imitation and memorization. What GJ seek in learning is the concept. When he was learning the 1st stance HL18Z, he wasted an entire whole day without any progress. Only after H7G sit down with him to explain, and only then he was making progress. Also keep in mind he is 6 years old, you can't compare to like a 14 years old YG. But at the end of the 12 years training with the Freaks, GJ was able to understand all the concept behind all of his master techniques by himself.

In the example I’ve used before…TuoLei had no problems learning a few stances from zhu cong and he didn’t have any martial arts background. And can you still say GJ has no martial arts background after a year, two years, etc of training w/ the freaks? YG was able to learn toad stance w/ barely any martial arts background and was able to learn a stance by secretly watching GJ teach the wu bros. Duan Yu was somehow able to learn Bei Ming w/o any martial arts background.

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by philip
did YLC really spend 16 years to practice XL18Z?
GJ has 9 yin…unfortunately, I don’t think he taught his son in law very much 9 yin.
All the beggars in between H7G and XF also had to know all of the XL18Z, shouldn’t they?

Yeh Lut Chai had sixteen years to develop his skill in the Hong Lung 18 Palms, but despite being quite a talented martial artist himself and certainly a diligent man, he never mastered this martial art. Clearly, the Hong Lung 18 Palms is not an easy martial art to master.

As far as the 9 Yum Jen Ging is concerned, it's irrelevant when comparing the young Gwok Jing's initial progress in learning the Hong Lung 18 Palms with Yeh Lut Chai's progress in learning the palms. The young Gwok Jing had the complete eighteen palms down already before he ever even saw the 9 Yum Jen Ging. That took place over the span of a few months. In sixteen years, Yeh Lut Chai was not able to match this feat.

Additionally, it's not a given that every Beggar's Union Chief learned the complete Hong Lung 18 Palms. Cheun Gwoon Ching did not. Yau Tan Tze did not. Wong Yung did not. Lo Yau Gerk did not. Yeh Lut Chai did not. See For Lung did not. Even among those who did learn the complete eighteen palms, how many became generation-defining masters like Kiu Fung, Hung 7 Gung, and Gwok Jing?

[Dirt]

Imagine how much more powerful the Greats would have been if they had the full 9 Ying.

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Ken Cheng
Yeh Lut Chai had sixteen years to develop his skill in the Hong Lung 18 Palms, but despite being quite a talented martial artist himself and certainly a diligent man, he never mastered this martial art. Clearly, the Hong Lung 18 Palms is not an easy martial art to master.

I think Guo Jing was just a really bad Sifu.

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by philip
Ma Yu said 7 freaks were not good teachers and it wasn’t completely GJ’s fault…but if GJ was indeed ingenious, then he should’ve shown more progress, shouldn’t he? I mean, right in the start, we see zhu cong teach Tuolui and GJ three stances. Tuolei had no problem learning the stances but GJ just stared into the blank.

It was explained quite early that Zhu Cong's skills are ill fit for GJ. Unfortunately, the man whose skill would have been best fit for GJ among the Freaks was Zhang Ah Sheng and he died before he could teach GJ anything. We'd never know what might happen then. But even a great teacher like H7G freely admits that there are some skills that he can't teach some disciples because they simply do not fit with the disciples. For example, H7G never bothered teaching any of 18 Dragon Palms to HR, because he knew that HR would not be able to get anything out of it. He also with held Carefree Fist from GJ and taught it to HR, because it didn't fit GJ.

Another thing you must keep in mind is how little GJ knew about martial arts at that moment. Any and all experience he had was in wrestling and archery (2 things at which he's probably the best in the world at by the end of LoCH).

If picking up martial arts when you knew nothing was that easy, why didn't YG steal any from GJ and HR when he first stayed with them? There was martial arts being taught and practiced and used all around him. Surely YG, with all that intelligence, could pick some. But yet he did not. The reason was simple, it's hard to with a blank slate.

If H7G was convinced by knowing that GJ learned QZ art rather than only 7 freak art…isn’t it more of GJ’s base rather than his talent that is taken into consideration? So is learning XL18Z a question on ability to learn or kung fu base? and while, GJ was learning XL18Z, it was mentioned that he had bad "comprehension" but managed to learn them decently becasuse he worked extra hard.
Is picking up philosophy from being told about the philosophy or coming up with it on his own?

What's "ability to learn" but how well one applies one's foundation to understand and master something new? GJ had a meager but excellent foundation to build from, but he still has to be the one who does it. YG had an excellent foundation as well, but nobody seems to be counting that against him (so did XF, being taught by a Shaolin master, and Z3F, with all that 9 Yang training).

It was mentioned in the very beginning of his training with H7G that GJ had a difficult time (for about an afternoon) until he realized the underlying principle behind the move (which he then mastered within about a day or 2). Call it what you want, I'll just call that talent.

Just to clarify things…I don’t think “learning talent” has anything to do with who was better at the end of ROCH, cuz both has pretty much finished learning what they can by then.

I agree, of sorts. If you think they are pretty much done learning, does that naturally leads to the conclusion the fact that YG is 20 years younger does not matter? I think it does. But... I'm not sure for how much.

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Moinllieon
I disagree, without encountering the Iron Sword and all of its benefits, which includes not only its techniques but its deeper martial arts philosophies, YG could have never developed his Sad Palms and we would not be having this debate. I place YG's Iron Sword as a "Shen Gong" as well, up there with GJ's 9 Yin, ZWJ's 9 Yang, LHC's DG9J, and whatever else DY mastered.

I thought Sad Palms was the culmination of all the martial arts he learned, not the culmination of the Iron Sword.

I disagree. I think Yang Guo would have become Great with anyone of the major martial arts he knew, whether it was Dog Beating Stick, Ha Ma Gong or Quan Zhen+GuMu kung fu. The heavy Iron Sword just happened to be the one he decided to concentrate his time on because it was the most interesting to him. And, it was something that (in his rebellious way) he could make his own.

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by Dirt
Imagine how much more powerful the Greats would have been if they had the full 9 Ying.

Well, both Yi Deng and H7G had access to the "essense" of 9 Yin, ZBT had access to the full 9 Yin, and OYF had access to "backwards" 9 Yin. So.... they'd probably be about as powerful as they ended up.

[Dirt]

Originally posted by Moinllieon
Well, both Yi Deng and H7G had access to the "essense" of 9 Yin, ZBT had access to the full 9 Yin, and OYF had access to "backwards" 9 Yin. So.... they'd probably be about as powerful as they ended up.

Sure, but I doubt that even Guo Jing would have been able to make reverse 9 Ying work.

Yang Guo might.

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by Dirt
I thought Sad Palms was the culmination of all the martial arts he learned, not the culmination of the Iron Sword.

I disagree. I think Yang Guo would have become Great with anyone of the major martial arts he knew, whether it was Dog Beating Stick, Ha Ma Gong or Quan Zhen+GuMu kung fu. The heavy Iron Sword just happened to be the one he decided to concentrate his time on because it was the most interesting to him. And, it was something that (in his rebellious way) he could make his own.

It's a culmination of everything, including the Iron Sword, but the Iron Sword philosophy was the main feature within it. You can't tell me that Sad Palms would be nearly as good without YG's knowledge of Iron Sword. Nor can you tell me that YG could possibly be better than GJ with a little knowledge of Dog Beating Stick, a bit of Ha Ma Gong, and a bit of Quan Zhen to go along with his Gu Mu martial arts. After all, there are parts in 9 Yin that completely and utterly negates and defeats all Gu Mu martial art concepts.

[Moinllieon]

Originally posted by Dirt
Sure, but I doubt that even Guo Jing would have been able to make reverse 9 Ying work.

Yang Guo might.

But OYF did (shows how much of a genius he was), and he still didn't come out ahead of GJ (or YG).

As for YG might make it work... sure, why not. And who's to say that GJ would not have made Iron Sword work better than YG did?

But he was never afforded the opportunity was he? A bit pointless to speculate like that.

[Anonymous]

Moin: Does the fact that GJ was not much better than the other Greats at the end of RoCH have anything to do with them learning some of 9 Yin as well? H7G, Yi Deng, OYF, ZBT, and HYS all had been exposed to 9 Yin (not to mention YG as well). Factor that into your analysis please.
--- Was wondering when GJ fans will admit to this. The interesting thing is that H7G and 1Deng with their sanskrit parts is still not superior to HYS: maybe HR (in the background as a dutiful daughter) helped HYS in some way?
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regarding "bad adjustment" on GJ:
1. I dont think bad adjustment is part of the equation, but rather a part of a "grouping." JY enforced/forced his heroes to a certain stage to beat more powerful opponents, rather than the hero being kick-assed. [ie. GJ vs. MCF (white-bone claw)]. The adjustments made to YG is more convincing and less cheesy becuz it's more logical. [Please remember, we are "mapping" our theories on JinYong's work and not enforcing our theories upon it.]
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Theory why few learned HL18Z after GJ:
1. everyone "before" GJ learned all HL18Z: H7G, and H7G's master, and XF/KF. GJ inherited his 7 teachers lousy teaching methods? [7freakingVirus ]
2. HL18Z_enhanced (recall GJ enhanced it with 9Yin) was too much for later generations. [GJ upped the requirement for HL18Z, just as XF upped the requirement for HL28Z. The technique is more "compact"/compressed.]
3. Later generation "heroic" spirit has declined and HSDS "really" shows the decline. GX had a discussion with YG regarding who is a hero, with the results of just the greats+GJ+HR. GX "explicitly" didnt mention YLC.

ch34: Guo Xiangdao: "I said. Some hero, guards Xiangyang, acts boldly regardless of one's safety, strength anti- Mongolia, protects the borders and sets people's minds at ease. Does this calculate the big hero?" The Yang oversized thumb as soon as curls upwards, road: "Right! Guo Jingguo the chivalrous person, is considered as is the big hero." Guo Xiangdao: "Also some heroine, assists my lord, the anti- enemy defends a city, the wisdom counts unparalleled, predicts with great accuracy. Is this the big hero?" Yang corridor: "You said are Guo Madame Huang Bangzhu [Beggar leader]? Mmm, also may be a big hero." Guo Xiangdao: "Also some old hero, five lines of wonderful techniques, the ghosts and gods not measured that, snaps fingers the magical powers, rare its. Does this calculate not the big hero?" Yang corridor: "This is the Taohua Island yellow pharmacist [HYS], that is the martial arts world senior, I usually respected." Guo Xiang said three people, see him all joyfully to approve, under the heart really is self-satisfied, said: "Some, the leadership confraternity of beggars, hoes deceitful kills the enemy, for the good of the people and country, laboriously toils, is he the big hero?" Yang corridor: "You said are Lu have foot Lu Bangzhu? This person of Wugong certainly not how, also did not say what has to do in a big way is, but looks ' deceitful in the hoe kills the enemy, for the good of the people and country ' on eight characters, calculated he is a character." Guo Xiang thought that, "You such great, the field of vision from is extremely high, I said again, only feared you must say is not right. Much less, except daddy, mother, grandfather, Lu Laobo. Who couldn't I also find out also some." Yang Guo sees color of the her face present hesitation, thought: "Uncle Guo, Madame Guo, Huang Daozhu [HYS], Lu Bangzhu [current Beggar leader] these four people all are raise the world boldly outstanding, this young girl can say their reputation, also insufficient for is originally wonderful." Thereupon said that, "You so long as again said, said to, I then leads you to go together ºÚÁú̶ to catch nine spirits fox." Guo assists [GX] is about to say brother-in-law [YLC] Ò®ÂÉ uneven, thinks his Wugong although high, the end does not suffice "the big hero" three characters, must say Wu Duiru, the military ÐÞÎÄ two fellow apprentices, that even more is far from, from is being awkward, suddenly gets a sudden inspiration, said:

[Han Solo]

Originally posted by Anonymous

Theory why few learned HL18Z after GJ:
1. everyone "before" GJ learned all HL18Z: H7G, and H7G's master, and XF/KF. GJ inherited his 7 teachers lousy teaching methods? [7freakingVirus ]
2. HL18Z_enhanced (recall GJ enhanced it with 9Yin) was too much for later generations. [GJ upped the requirement for HL18Z, just as XF upped the requirement for HL28Z. The technique is more "compact"/compressed.]
3. Later generation "heroic" spirit has declined and HSDS "really" shows the decline. GX had a discussion with YG regarding who is a hero, with the results of just the greats+GJ+HR. GX "explicitly" didnt mention YLC.

Respectfully disagreed.

1) Yes, the seven freaks were lousy teachers BUT GJ were also exposed to good teachers like Ma Yuk, H7G, ZBT and HYS. He surely knows what's good teaching and what's poor teaching and should be able to apply the proper teaching methods if he has any brains.

2) Not really. Being more compact means that the power is more concentrated but there's less stances to learn i.e. from 28 to 18. Therefore, you don't need to memorize so many stances (not that HL18Palm are difficult stances).

Further, even with GJ's interpretation of HL18Palm, there's no absolute need to learn either L/R techniques or 9 Yin. These are like bonuses but not essential. YLC never learned 9 Yin.

3) Heroic spirit is good but not essential in learning HL18Palm. What's needed are probably a straight-forward man.

[philip]

If picking up martial arts when you knew nothing was that easy, why didn't YG steal any from GJ and HR when he first stayed with them? There was martial arts being taught and practiced and used all around him. Surely YG, with all that intelligence, could pick some. But yet he did not. The reason was simple, it's hard to with a blank slate.

he did pick a thing or two up while "watching" Guo JIng teach the wu bros. If he continued watching, i think he would've picked up quite some, but he decided that he wouldn't "spy" upon them. One of those YG self pride things.

What's "ability to learn" but how well one applies one's foundation to understand and master something new? GJ had a meager but excellent foundation to build from, but he still has to be the one who does it. YG had an excellent foundation as well, but nobody seems to be counting that against him (so did XF, being taught by a Shaolin master, and Z3F, with all that 9 Yang training).

that works if you define "talent" that way,
i guess we just have different views of what "talent" is.

I agree, of sorts. If you think they are pretty much done learning, does that naturally leads to the conclusion the fact that YG is 20 years younger does not matter? I think it does. But... I'm not sure for how much.

actually...i just define learning as the basic learning part, not practicing area.

Yeh Lut Chai had sixteen years to develop his skill in the Hong Lung 18 Palms, but despite being quite a talented martial artist himself and certainly a diligent man, he never mastered this martial art. Clearly, the Hong Lung 18 Palms is not an easy martial art to master.

anyone knows when YLC started to learn XL18Z?

I disagree. I think Yang Guo would have become Great with anyone of the major martial arts he knew, whether it was Dog Beating Stick, Ha Ma Gong or Quan Zhen+GuMu kung fu. The heavy Iron Sword just happened to be the one he decided to concentrate his time on because it was the most interesting to him. And, it was something that (in his rebellious way) he could make his own.

YG would've done excellent w/o the iron sword, but definitely not as well as he turned out. THe iron sword technique gave him a huge boost. Just like GJ would've done well w/ only XL18Z, kong ming fist, and qz, but not nearly as well as he did with 9 yin.

oh...and another question....does anyone know if GWM started his elephant-dragon-thingy after or before the 16 year gap in ROCH?

[superboy]

Originally posted by Top Dog
Right. That's why GJ did not get the most out of the 9 Yum. Because if he did, he would be a level higher than the Greats.

Ummm...., where did you get the information that he isn't? Cause there is a very good chance that he did if he was equal to a 70 year old Great in his 30s. At the end of ROCH, logically, he should be stronger. He understand all of 9 Yin, so how can he not benefit all from it. The only possible way to not benefit all the way is not understanding it. Cause are else, we don't say so since there is really nothing to support your statement. At least not in the novel. And how did you know that GJ did not get full benefit? Is it just a conlusion formed by strickly opinion? GJ proved himself to be very good with QZ cultivation, when did JY say he didn't bring out the protential of 9 Yin?

[superboy]

oh...and another question....does anyone know if GWM started his elephant-dragon-thingy after or before the 16 year gap in ROCH?

I believe he practiced before the 16 years.