If Guo Jing fought the Greats in the first Mount Hua tournament...

[Doughboy]

Given Guo Jing's martial arts achievement at the end of LOCH, how would he stand against the Five Greats if he were to partake in the first Mount Hua tournament?

During the second tournament in Mount Hua, GJ was already a strong match for HYS and HQG, being able to take on 300 stances from each of them. So if GJ were taken back in time to the same event 25 years ago, it is very likely that he could overcome the Four Greats, although he would probably still lose to WCY.

My assumption here uses HYS as the reference point and the fact that the Four Greats had always been around the same level. In ROCH, when HYS taught Yang Guo his Divine Flicking Finger, it was stated that HYS was almost 80 while YG was not yet 20. At that time, it was commented by HYS himself that he had achieved the equivalent of YG's current level only after he had turned 30. But YG could not even defeat Li Mo Chou then. Also, when the first Mount Hua tournament took place, HYS was only in his mid-30s. Unless his martial arts drastically improved during the several years in his early 30s, his ability at the time of the tournament might only be slightly better than LMC. And in no way could LMC exchange 300 stances with a Great in LOCH.

[ToOn99]

he might tie with other greats except WCY.

[superboy]

I do not agree that the Greats are below or just equal to LMC"s ability in their thirties, although there internal energy ain't very high. I think their external martial arts and skills houd be ahead of LMC. I think the GJ at the end of LOCH also may have the ability to be an equal of exceed the Greats with the exception of WCY with both his internal energy and skills he attained from 9 Yin, QZ and H7G.

[Ren Wo Xing]

If both Hong Qigong and Huang Yaoshi hadn't taken it easy on him from the beginning, he wouldn't have lasted even 200 stances, much less 300.

At the end of LOCH, there was still a significant gap between him and the Greats.

[superboy]

True, I don't think that GJ would have lasted over 150 stances. I'm not sure tabout this estimate though. Byt HYS treated LMC in a fight almost like a 5 year old child. So I think that LMC cannot compare to GJ at the end of LOCH. LMC dodn't look like she can last 40 stances.

[Ken Cheng]

Maybe the more telling figure than the number of moves that East Heretic Wong Yerk See or North Beggar Hung 7 Gung would have needed to defeat Gwok Jing at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament is how Wong Yerk See realized that he could *not* defeat Gwok Jing using 70% of his power. Wong Yerk See was put at a disadvantage against Gwok Jing when he restrained himself to 70% and had to go all out to recapture the upper hand. Hung 7 Gung also did not believe he could win until he used a full-power Kong Lung Yau Fui.

[CC]

Maybe the more telling figure than the number of moves that East Heretic Wong Yerk See or North Beggar Hung 7 Gung would have needed to defeat Gwok Jing at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament is how Wong Yerk See realized that he could *not* defeat Gwok Jing using 70% of his power. Wong Yerk See was put at a disadvantage against Gwok Jing when he restrained himself to 70% and had to go all out to recapture the upper hand. Hung 7 Gung also did not believe he could win until he used a full-power Kong Lung Yau Fui.

Underestimation doesnt reflect the true disparity.

If H7G had used the full power Dragon Palm from stroke 1, would GJ have even lasted to stroke 2?

[Ken Cheng]

If H7G had used the full power Dragon Palm from stroke 1, would GJ have even lasted to stroke 2?

That depends on how ready Gwok Jing is to take the blow. Gwok Jing was able to hold Hung 7 Gung's final blow despite having just gone 599 combined moves against Wong Yerk See and Hung 7 Gung. I can't see why Gwok Jing couldn't do it from the beginning of the battle if he's ready for it.

[kyss of the sword]

[{quote=doughboy}My assumption here uses HYS as the reference point and the fact that the Four Greats had always been around the same level. In ROCH, when HYS taught Yang Guo his Divine Flicking Finger, it was stated that HYS was almost 80 while YG was not yet 20. At that time, it was commented by HYS himself that he had achieved the equivalent of YG's current level only after he had turned 30. But YG could not even defeat Li Mo Chou then. Also, when the first Mount Hua tournament took place, HYS was only in his mid-30s. Unless his martial arts drastically improved during the several years in his early 30s, his ability at the time of the tournament might only be slightly better than LMC. And in no way could LMC exchange 300 stances with a Great in LOCH.]

you made a mistake. haung yaoshi was refering to yang guo's inner energy, which had reach a good level and caused his vital points to open, that happened after he was treated by haung yaoshi, remember that yang gou was injured and could not actually fight with li mochuo then, after when they went to find the blacksmith for the sissors , he was confident of overcoming her with the sissors thru he didn't have a chance to try. after JLFW gave him some advice and he learned the freely and unrestrined method he was as good as (better in some skills)her in skills(through she still had an edge in inner strenght). li mochuo was a level below JLFW(great) and that was the same as guo jing at the end of LOCH at 2nd haushan tournament.

[Ken Cheng]

I thought Lee Mok Sau was a good two levels below the Greats.

[kyss of the sword]

[{quote=ken cheng} thought Lee Mok Sau was a good two levels below the Greats]

if JLFW = a great then {see below}
[{quote=noodles translation}When it comes to martial arts and internal energy, Fa Wang was a level higher than Li Mo Chou and with the fact that Li Mo Chou was carrying a child with her,]

[Guo Jing took three steps back while Jin Lun Fa Wang stood his ground steadily. His strength was much stronger than Guo Jing’s and his internal energy was profound but the proficiency of his palms could not compare with Guo Jing’s.]
[Fa Wang saw that he was confused, he picked him up by the back and flung him away. Da Er Ba weighed about a hundred kilos; the way he was tossed lightly aside was as if he was nothing.

The heroes has seen the frightening strength of Da Er Ba when he fought Cang Dian Yu Yin and Yang Guo, but the toss by Jin Lun Fa Wang showed that his strength was even stronger]

when comparing guo jing and JLFW it may not be that JLFW had higher inner energy , but physical strenght that made the difference.
guo jing inner energy = JLFW inner energy
guo jing inner energy+external strenght < JLFW inner energy+external strenght (e.g.xiao feng inner energy+physical training =bloody wulin hulk)

[Ken Cheng]

when comparing guo jing and JLFW it may not be that JLFW had higher inner energy , but physical strenght that made the difference.
guo jing inner energy = JLFW inner energy
guo jing inner energy+external strenght < JLFW inner energy+external strenght (e.g.xiao feng inner energy+physical training =bloody wulin hulk)

Are you sure about this, kyss? From what I've been told, the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't all that impressive when it came to musculature: he was described as being kind of skinny.

[Laviathan]

Are you sure about this, kyss? From what I've been told, the Golden Wheel Monk wasn't all that impressive when it came to musculature: he was described as being kind of skinny.

Being skinny doesn't mean he cannot be strong. Daerba was very skinny but he was extremely strong physically, without having true internal energy.

In the novel, it was said that Golden Wheel Monk's original strength was higher than Guo Jing, which probably means he was physically stronger.

[CC]

The thing is that given the feats of strength which inner energy can do, even the most muscular man would pale in comparison. So the boost to total absolute power from muscles shouldn't matter much once inner force is factored in.

Unless there is a synergy when muscle strength is combined with inner force.

Would explain why Xiao Feng was so strong then.

[Xiao Feng]

I think being physically fit does play a factor in determining how good your martial arts will be. Like a multiplier of sorts when it comes to calculating martial prowess (if such a thing can be done). For example, a young athletic fighter would be stronger than an older less fit fighter even if they had the same level of inner power and without question have faster reflexes.

[Doughboy]

I want to clarify my initial post because I guess I wasn’t clear enough. When HYS thought that he had only achieved YG’s level after 30, he should be referring to YG’s internal cultivation because, at that instant, he was observing YG’s powerful screaming during his meditation. This scene happened right before HYS taught YG his finger flicking and flute sword skills. My initial post might have given the impression that HYS’s comment came after he taught YG. Sorry for the confusion.

I also thought that LMZ was about two levels below the Greats because there was the Iron Palm QQR in the middle.

[Dennis Chen]

If you can use your inner power to make a bamboo stick as strong as steel or a pin as powerful as a sword, why couldn't you do the same for your muscles?

[Ken Cheng]

I also thought that LMZ was about two levels below the Greats because there was the Iron Palm QQR in the middle.

Kau Cheen Yan should not be the benchmark, however, because he was indeed at the same level as the Greats...albeit at the lower end of that level (they were at the upper end of that level). Gwok Jing at the end of LOCH, however, was probably one level lower than the Greats.

[Xiao Feng]

If you can use your inner power to make a bamboo stick as strong as steel or a pin as powerful as a sword, why couldn't you do the same for your muscles?

Maybe you can if you knew the right techniques to channel your inner power, like some protection skills teach you. I reckon its a bit more difficult to strengthen a piece of wood than yourself.

[Dennis Chen]

Did Qiu Qian Ren ever match the other Greats? That he surpassed HQG and OYF is quite possible since he outlived both. But was he as GREAT as HYS and YD? In the novel, QQR fought JLGS for many moves and ultimately lost. YD was able to hold his own against JLGS, but, the book mentions that YD was old and his endurance wasn't what it once was: is this why QQR lost? Or did he never match the other Greats?