NBA Discussion 2

[Vicious]

Oh yeah and the only reason the Heat wants to acquire him is because of his defence... Well excuse me... What kind of 'defence' did he put up against the likes of Steve Francis, Tony Parker, Sam Cassell, and last but not least, Chauncey Billups... Payton was Joe Dumar's greatest acquistion last year... and an unsung hero in the Pistons championship team... Pitty Payton was actually forgot he was playing for the Lakers...

Who in the league puts up defense better than Payton against any of these players??

Tony Parker was pretty much shut out in last year's playoff series after two games with LA. I dont remember who was guarding him though?

[Moinllieon]

Who in the league puts up defense better than Payton against any of these players??

Tony Parker was pretty much shut out in last year's playoff series after two games with LA. I dont remember who was guarding him though?

Well, you can't exactly credit Payton with "shutting down" Parker last year. Parker TORCHED Payton for Game 1 and 2 in SA, which forced Phil Jackson to change his defensive scheme and made the defend who had to "pick" roll off and double down on Parker whenever he came off of a pick to help Payton (also to dish out some physical punishment). It was only after that adjustment (and also Jackson sticking Fisher in there in crunch time b/c he guards Parker better) that Parker struggled. If anything, Parker exposed Payton as a player who lost a step and needed help to cover quicker guards off the pick-and-roll, something a younger Payton would have shut down easily. So I wouldn't really bring up what Payton did to Parker last year as evidence of Payton's defensive prowess.

That said, I'd still take Payton defensively over Cassell, Francis, and Parker. Sure Payton will have trouble against Francis and Parker, the 2 faster PGs, but still, neither one is on Payton's level defensively (or shooting or passing wise either really). And Payton would eat up Cassell, whose main forte is posting up smaller PGs.

[Moinllieon]

Oh yeah and the only reason the Heat wants to acquire him is because of his defence... Well excuse me... What kind of 'defence' did he put up against the likes of Steve Francis, Tony Parker, Sam Cassell, and last but not least, Chauncey Billups... Payton was Joe Dumar's greatest acquistion last year... and an unsung hero in the Pistons championship team... Pitty Payton was actually forgot he was playing for the Lakers...

How about giving credit where credit is due? You've given credit to the Pistons' championship to Malone, Kobe, and Payton, basically everybody but Shaq and the Pistons themselves. From what I saw, with the way Pistons dominated the Lakers, unless Payton played at a 20/6/10/3 level, it would not have made a difference and the Pistons would have won it eventually anyways.

[James Ko]

Who in the league puts up defense better than Payton against any of these players??

Payton was a really awsome defensive player back in the old days but he was overshadows by the big guys. But he is older now and slower so dn't think he can shut anyone down like he used to unless that guy is having a bad day

[Vicious]

Well, you can't exactly credit Payton with "shutting down" Parker last year. Parker TORCHED Payton for Game 1 and 2 in SA, which forced Phil Jackson to change his defensive scheme and made the defend who had to "pick" roll off and double down on Parker whenever he came off of a pick to help Payton (also to dish out some physical punishment). It was only after that adjustment (and also Jackson sticking Fisher in there in crunch time b/c he guards Parker better) that Parker struggled. If anything, Parker exposed Payton as a player who lost a step and needed help to cover quicker guards off the pick-and-roll, something a younger Payton would have shut down easily. So I wouldn't really bring up what Payton did to Parker last year as evidence of Payton's defensive prowess.

not at all, i wasn't trying to give all the credit to Payton for shutting down anybody but like i asked, who is better defensively than Payton? Until Phil Jackson changed the team's defense, i dont think anyone else could've stopped Parker either, not Fisher, Byrant, Rush. I think there's too much blame on one player when the team's defense isn't structured correctly.

[Vicious]

Payton was a really awsome defensive player back in the old days but he was overshadows by the big guys. But he is older now and slower so dn't think he can shut anyone down like he used to unless that guy is having a bad day

What big guys? You mean people on his team like Kemp? or big guys in the league in general? Payton is no glove anymore but i still see him play more defense than some of the younger kids.

[James Ko]

What big guys? You mean people on his team like Kemp? or big guys in the league in general? Payton is no glove anymore but i still see him play more defense than some of the younger kids.

I mean the league in general during the time, like Hakeen, Robinson, Mutombo and Mourning.

[Long]

How about giving credit where credit is due? You've given credit to the Pistons' championship to Malone, Kobe, and Payton, basically everybody but Shaq and the Pistons themselves. From what I saw, with the way Pistons dominated the Lakers, unless Payton played at a 20/6/10/3 level, it would not have made a difference and the Pistons would have won it eventually anyways.

Great teams who win Championships normally repeat (or at least win 2 within 4-5 years)... Flukes can happen any given year...

I'll only give the Pistons credit if they win this year... Otherwise, bottom-line FLUKE...

[Moinllieon]

Great teams who win Championships normally repeat (or at least win 2 within 4-5 years)... Flukes can happen any given year...

I'll only give the Pistons credit if they win this year... Otherwise, bottom-line FLUKE...

People don't fluke out and somehow beat every other team in the league at least 4 times. Are you telling me that the Sixers of the early 80s or the late 60s or the Knicks of the late 70s are bad teams because they only won one championship? This isn't the NFL, teams don't fluke into 4 wins over a single opponent over 2 weeks for over a month. If it's so easy to fluke into a championship, why couldn't the Lakers fluke into it last year? After all, they fluked into a .4sec prayer over the Spurs.

[Crazy8]

Great teams who win Championships normally repeat (or at least win 2 within 4-5 years)... Flukes can happen any given year...

I'll only give the Pistons credit if they win this year... Otherwise, bottom-line FLUKE...

it wasnt a fluke. they were the best of the east in the 03-04 year.
the fluke was on the lakers part. they just happen to run out of luck against pistons. the way the lakers play and the way they play against the spurs or any previous teams they dominated, you can see a difference. everyone knows how dominating the lakers were when they were against the spurs. the guys dont even need to play well and they still can beat the spurs. the fact is that two wallace is better then one shaq or one duncan or dirk, and Brown was lucky enough to find lakers weakness. also the fact that malone and payton was either not playing at thier potential or injuried.

[Long]

People don't fluke out and somehow beat every other team in the league at least 4 times. Are you telling me that the Sixers of the early 80s or the late 60s or the Knicks of the late 70s are bad teams because they only won one championship? This isn't the NFL, teams don't fluke into 4 wins over a single opponent over 2 weeks for over a month. If it's so easy to fluke into a championship, why couldn't the Lakers fluke into it last year? After all, they fluked into a .4sec prayer over the Spurs.

I ain't talking about the 60s, 70s here... I'm talking from what I see...

Since the Lakers won back to back in 87-88, they have set a trend... Followed by the Pistons, Bulls, Rockets, and Lakers again... Great teams in the 90s, and 200s are good enough to repeat... If the PIstons don't they're just like the Spurs who won the Championship against the Knicks when Ewing was injured... Not until they beat the Nets did people give the credit..

So why should I give the Pistons any credit?

[Crazy8]

before they start losing to the piston. everyone was comparing the Lakers team to the 98 bulls and which is better. the answer was never answered til the lakers meet pistons. the only person i blame was kobe for losing. payton, malone and shaq was playing thier parts and kobe as usually played his part too, but thats what everyone dont want to see. kobe hogs the ball too much.

[Moinllieon]

I ain't talking about the 60s, 70s here... I'm talking from what I see...

Since the Lakers won back to back in 87-88, they have set a trend... Followed by the Pistons, Bulls, Rockets, and Lakers again... Great teams in the 90s, and 200s are good enough to repeat... If the PIstons don't they're just like the Spurs who won the Championship against the Knicks when Ewing was injured... Not until they beat the Nets did people give the credit..

So why should I give the Pistons any credit?

Who are you to deny them any credit?

So... if the Pistons win a Championship in the next 4 or 5 years, they get credit for actually beating the Lakers last year? Weird equation you have there.

[Long]

Who are you to deny them any credit?

So... if the Pistons win a Championship in the next 4 or 5 years, they get credit for actually beating the Lakers last year? Weird equation you have there.

I am a fan who pays $30 a month for ESPN + some other channels so I can catch the game, have a right to vote for the All-Star and am thus like the media, able to 'credit' and 'discredit' teams...

[James Ko]

I am a fan who pays $30 a month for ESPN + some other channels so I can catch the game, have a right to vote for the All-Star and am thus like the media, able to 'credit' and 'discredit' teams...

He does have a point... it is freedom of speech

[Moinllieon]

He does have a point... it is freedom of speech

What does freedom of speech have to do with any of this? Freedom of speech is about the right to say what may be offensive things, and sometimes truths, to people and power without having to worry about repurcussions of such a speech and the limits of such a right. Where does talking about something as inane as who deserves credit for a sport championship even fall remotely into the realm of discussion of freedom of speech? To be frank, that is an extremely strange and weird association to make. Imagine if I demand some statistical backup from one poster's point and he invokes the 5th. What sense would that make? I mean, are you going to invoke "double jeopardy" when I ask you a question twice? Or do we need to bring up the 7th Amendment to settle this little argument between Long and I?

[Moinllieon]

I am a fan who pays $30 a month for ESPN + some other channels so I can catch the game, have a right to vote for the All-Star and am thus like the media, able to 'credit' and 'discredit' teams...

Hey, now all you have to do is convince several thousand others to think as little as the Pistons as you do and you might be onto something... in Australia. Think whatever you like, the Pistons got credit from lots of people (some of whom, I'm afraid to say, are more knowledgeable in the game than you are. For example Hubie Brown) and they are doing fine now (kinda did what the Shaq and the Lakers did, kinda coasted through the first parts of the season). They've just been voted the best franchise in all of sports here in America, they have been the best team in the league since the new years, they have a 4.5 game lead in their division, and by my estimation, only 2 teams stand between them and a championship: the Heat and the Spurs.

On top of that their President, Joe Dumars, have just been nominated for the Hall of Fame.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1995944

I personally think that Wilkins, Boeheim, and Calhoun are virtual locks to get in this year with Dantley, King, and Dumars on the edge. Since I'm a big fan of all 6 of those guys, I hope they all get in. But that's probably not happening, all things considered.

[James Ko]

What does freedom of speech have to do with any of this? Freedom of speech is about the right to say what may be offensive things, and sometimes truths, to people and power without having to worry about repurcussions of such a speech and the limits of such a right. Where does talking about something as inane as who deserves credit for a sport championship even fall remotely into the realm of discussion of freedom of speech? To be frank, that is an extremely strange and weird association to make. Imagine if I demand some statistical backup from one poster's point and he invokes the 5th. What sense would that make? I mean, are you going to invoke "double jeopardy" when I ask you a question twice? Or do we need to bring up the 7th Amendment to settle this little argument between Long and I?

You are thinking too much Moin. What I mean was Long can say whatever options he have on any player and teams. Just like you can say whatever options you have on any player or any time. You just took that out of context. so :shrug back

[Moinllieon]

You are thinking too much Moin. What I mean was Long can say whatever options he have on any player and teams. Just like you can say whatever options you have on any player or any time. You just took that out of context. so :shrug back

If that's what you are saying you shouldn't have used the phrase "freedom of speech" because it simply doesn't apply to this situation or what you meant. Saying "freedom of speech" isn't the same as saying: "opinions are like anal cavities, everyone has one."

[bliss]

If that's what you are saying you shouldn't have used the phrase "freedom of speech" because it simply doesn't apply to this situation or what you meant. Saying "freedom of speech" isn't the same as saying: "opinions are like anal cavities, everyone has one."

Hey! If he wants to say "freedom of speech" then let him say "freedom of speech"! Afterall, we have freedom of speech remember? HAHAHAHHA OK Sorry I just had to say that.